Author Topic: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase  (Read 11355 times)

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #50 on: May 31, 2018, 11:13:35 »
Because his Dad created PetroCan?

Rhetorical question. PetroCan, Petro Fina, Power Corp and the Laurentian Elites. Oil for food scandal. All grit business in foreign oil.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #51 on: May 31, 2018, 13:37:04 »
Here's another question:will oil run through this pipeline fetch below market price like the way it is right now in Cushing? I happen to agree that if the oil extracted is to be refined into a non-fuel product, such as a raw material for 3D printing in China, then what are we doing exporting it as a raw resource instead of a finished product. Just asking...

Offline Altair

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2018, 13:53:42 »
Here's another question:will oil run through this pipeline fetch below market price like the way it is right now in Cushing? I happen to agree that if the oil extracted is to be refined into a non-fuel product, such as a raw material for 3D printing in China, then what are we doing exporting it as a raw resource instead of a finished product. Just asking...
its a good question.

I think its a matter of capacity. North america is already near capacity whrnnit comes to refineries. Canada has less than 20, america 140ish. Hard to make a business deal saying that we need more refineries when some refineries are closing as it is.

So we would need to refine it for export.

But doing that would require to try to challenge asian refineries who can do it cheaper than we can,  especially BC with its environmental policies.

Add to that, its hard to refine the type of oil alberta exports,  heavy oil. Looking at added costs both in initial start up costs and long term.

So its easier to export it raw and let others refine it,  but at least sell it at market price than it is to refine it then try to butt into the Asian market.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2018, 19:56:03 »
OK, but what's the problem with refining it in Alberta and using it for our own market needs. The uses for oil as I'm sure you are well aware go far beyond fuel energy. It is THE primary strategic ingredient in hardware coverings, new building materials and other products from emerging  manufacturing technologies.
It is disheartening to see that this country continues to de-industrialize and cede that space to Asia and others when we could lead.
Really, why was this not part of the backup plan of the feds?

Offline Altair

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #54 on: May 31, 2018, 20:25:52 »
OK, but what's the problem with refining it in Alberta and using it for our own market needs. The uses for oil as I'm sure you are well aware go far beyond fuel energy. It is THE primary strategic ingredient in hardware coverings, new building materials and other products from emerging  manufacturing technologies.
It is disheartening to see that this country continues to de-industrialize and cede that space to Asia and others when we could lead.
Really, why was this not part of the backup plan of the feds?
the Canadian praries are largely self sufficient. Alberta already supplies the needs of BC,  itself,  Saskatchewan,  and Manitoba,  although I think some of this is refined in the states.

There isn't much of a business case for refining any more oil in Canada for Canadians,  except in the central provinces. Energy east would have done the job,  but quebec,  and to some extent ontario didn't want the project.

The fact of the matter is that western Canada refines more oil that it needs as it is.  The rest must be exported.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2018, 12:01:03 »
Actually no, BC has to import refined product, we have one 56,000bpd and one 26,000bpd refineries, not only do we have to import refined product, we also have to import feedstock from the US. Ironically a portion of the feedstock in the existing KM line is apparently diverted to the US, instead of Canada.

Offline Altair

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2018, 13:32:36 »
Actually no, BC has to import refined product, we have one 56,000bpd and one 26,000bpd refineries, not only do we have to import refined product, we also have to import feedstock from the US. Ironically a portion of the feedstock in the existing KM line is apparently diverted to the US, instead of Canada.
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/tristin-hopper-why-canada-shouldnt-refine-the-oil-it-exports

Some food for thought.

Quote
Canada already exports more refined products than it imports
In December 2017, Canada imported 1.4 million cubic metres of refined products while exporting 2.4 million cubic metres — meaning that Americans are burning way more of our gasoline than we’re burning of theirs. It may seem strange that Canada is simultaneously importing and exporting refined products, but keep in mind that we are essentially a one-dimensional country splayed along a 6,400 kilometre border with the United States; gas stations in Thunder Bay are generally going to have an easier time getting their fuel from Minnesota rather than Alberta. Either way, Canada’s relatively robust export market should make it clear that we have absolutely no problem refining our own oil when it is profitable to do so. As the points below will note, it’s the “profitable” part of the equation that’s the tricky part.

Quote
Even the refineries we already have aren’t running full tilt. In 2017 Canada’s refineries only ran at 84 per cent capacity, according to the National Energy Board. The story is a bit different in Alberta, where refinery utilization impressively topped 101.5 per cent in 2017 — but that still means eastern refineries are sitting on their hands up to one fifth of the time. There’s even some wiggle room in U.S. refineries, who worked at only 91 per cent capacity in 2017. It’s for this reason that Husky Energy CEO Rob Peabody said last month that North America is effectively maxed out on refineries. What’s more needed, he said, are new pipelines to connect Alberta’s oil with some of the continent’s more underused refineries.

Quote
Last year, Canada exported $67 billion in oil. As with prior years, most of that exported oil ended up in the United States. Pretend that, tomorrow, Canada shut off all its oil exports and informed the Americans that if they wanted our petroleum, they’d have to start ponying up for some made-in-Canada gas, diesel and kerosene. The likely result is that U.S. oil importers would give us a blank look before immediately calling one of the hundreds of other places that could sell them crude oil instead. “They’re not going to idle all of their refining capacity to suit Canada’s needs, they’re going to do what’s best for them, which is to continue to run their refineries,” said Jason Parent with Kent Group, a leading Canadian oil industry analyst. One major problem is that Canada has a pretty hard time making gasoline cheaper than anyone else. The United States is the world’s most prolific refiner of oil — and most of its refineries are already paid off. China benefits from a one-two punch of lower labour costs and lax environmental standards. Against those odds, there are only so many ways in which a brand-new Canadian refinery could expect to make competitively priced diesel and gas.
Quote
Generally, it makes sense to refine close to market
A refinery is a bit like a brewery: You can put it anywhere. Alaska is famous for its beer, and yet the barley and hops to make it is almost exclusively imported from abroad. Similarly, Japan’s coast is littered with refineries despite the country not having a single domestic oil well. There are a couple reasons for this. First off, refined products expire: From the time it comes out of the refinery, a litre of gasoline can have as little as a few months before it goes stale. Secondly, every market decides to use its petroleum differently. For instance, about half of the transportation fuels burned in Europe are diesel, while in the U.S. it’s as low as three per cent. The advantage of selling crude oil is that it can be sold to anyone, anywhere and at anytime. Once it gets refined, however, it turns into a perishable product with a much narrower group of people willing to buy it. Think of oil like lentils. Canada is the world’s largest exporter of lentils, and most of those leave our borders in their rawest possible state as dried, split grains. Canada could try “value-adding” those grains by insisting that they be processed into Bavarian lentil soup before export — but that’s going to be a problem if an Indian freighter pulls up looking for dal ingredients.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2018, 15:08:37 »
Our big refinery had to close recently for a 2 month upgrade, that drove the price up here by around 10cents a litre, there has been a persistent diesel shortage, now slightly eased by BC Ferries going to Natural Gas. All the refined product for anywhere north of Vancouver has to come from the US or Alberta, the refinery in PG meets the local need.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2018, 23:15:04 »
Our big refinery had to close recently for a 2 month upgrade, that drove the price up here by around 10cents a litre, there has been a persistent diesel shortage, now slightly eased by BC Ferries going to Natural Gas. All the refined product for anywhere north of Vancouver has to come from the US or Alberta, the refinery in PG meets the local need.

The great pipeline debate: Why isn’t more oil refined in B.C.?


About half of the refined products B.C. uses travel from Alberta: 50,000 bbls/d via the existing Trans Mountain line and a similar amount by rail and truck, the fuels association says.

The rest, 30,000 bbls/d, including biofuels, comes from beyond Canada’s borders, mostly from Washington state’s five refineries. There are four within 60 kilometres of Victoria — the Phillips 66 refinery at Ferndale, near Bellingham, the nearby BP refinery at Cherry Point, and the Shell and Tesoro refineries at Anacortes — with a combined capacity of 590,000 bbls/d.

Note that none of the product from Washington’s refineries is shipped overseas; almost 90 per cent is sold in the U.S., the rest in Canada. Also note that just over half the product travelling through the existing 300,000 bbl/d Trans Mountain pipe is crude that gets diverted to the Washington refineries via the Puget Sound spur line from Sumas. Effectively, they’re buying our oil and selling it back, refined, at a premium.

http://www.jwnenergy.com/article/2018/4/great-pipeline-debate-why-isnt-more-oil-refined-bc/
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2018, 01:25:08 »
It's a hard sell to convince the clamouring classes in BC to accept more pipeline capacity.  Good luck finding a place to park a refinery close to markets in the lower mainland.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2018, 19:59:52 »
OK, but what's the problem with refining it in Alberta and using it for our own market needs. The uses for oil as I'm sure you are well aware go far beyond fuel energy. It is THE primary strategic ingredient in hardware coverings, new building materials and other products from emerging  manufacturing technologies.
It is disheartening to see that this country continues to de-industrialize and cede that space to Asia and others when we could lead.
Really, why was this not part of the backup plan of the feds?

It should be fairly self evident the Feds had no real plan going in, and indeed most of this mess is self induced by the very Liberal government which is now buying the pipeline and will grandly tax us for another 7-10 billion "investment money" to build the thing. So there never was a backup plan, and of course if they run into trouble again, there will be no "plan B" then, either.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2018, 11:01:08 »
It should be fairly self evident the Feds had no real plan going in, and indeed most of this mess is self induced by the very Liberal government which is now buying the pipeline and will grandly tax us for another 7-10 billion "investment money" to build the thing. So there never was a backup plan, and of course if they run into trouble again, there will be no "plan B" then, either.

Sounds like Canada has a fighter jet oil refining "Capability Gap."  Perhaps we could get some used refineries to tide us over until more modern refineries are built?

Cheers,
G2G

Offline Altair

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2018, 11:07:14 »
Sounds like Canada has a fighter jet oil refining "Capability Gap."  Perhaps we could get some used refineries to tide us over until more modern refineries are built?

Cheers,
G2G
North America does not need more refineries
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2018, 11:57:49 »
North America does not need more refineries

It either needs more pipelines, or more refineries, but not neither...

Offline Colin P

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2018, 13:20:43 »
The pickle for the Libs is that if KM walks, then any other proposal to build it would fall under their new legislation that is before Parliament and that would most certainly kill it. The current proposed pipeline will remain grandfathered under the Harper era rules as long as they continue with it. Meaning that the Libs can't take the long road on this. 

Offline YZT580

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2018, 02:15:08 »
The pickle for the Libs is that if KM walks, then any other proposal to build it would fall under their new legislation that is before Parliament and that would most certainly kill it. The current proposed pipeline will remain grandfathered under the Harper era rules as long as they continue with it. Meaning that the Libs can't take the long road on this.
Or they get hoisted by their own petard.

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2018, 21:28:03 »
Well, this is interesting.  A BC company claims to be sucking CO2 from the air and creating fuel. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-company-says-it-is-sucking-carbon-from-air-making-fuel-1.4696817

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2018, 00:22:53 »
There's certainly enough hot air to use as a resource!
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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2018, 00:53:52 »
Well, this is interesting.  A BC company claims to be sucking CO2 from the air and creating fuel. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-company-says-it-is-sucking-carbon-from-air-making-fuel-1.4696817

If this actually works as advertised and is scaleable, this is a game changer.

Offline Bearpaw

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2018, 03:15:26 »

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2018, 11:07:29 »
Well, this is interesting.  A BC company claims to be sucking CO2 from the air and creating fuel. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-company-says-it-is-sucking-carbon-from-air-making-fuel-1.4696817

Here's a thought - apply the technology where it is most cost effective - ie where the CO2 concentration is richest.

And where is the CO2 concentration the richest, you ask? At a smoke stack.

Burn Coal.  Make Energy and CO2.  Make Fuel from CO2.  Burn Fuel from CO2.   Make Energy and CO2.  Burn Fuel from CO2.

Or you can process tonnes of air looking for grams of fuel......  Meanwhile the greening of the earth that has been occurring will slow and stop due to inadequate CO2.

 :facepalm:

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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2018, 13:14:59 »
Quote
Here's a thought - apply the technology where it is most cost effective - ie where the CO2 concentration is richest.

Ottawa?

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2018, 18:04:18 »
More info needed, particularly on energy in vs energy out.  A process running on "renewable" electrical energy sources is meaningless if the energy is being pulled out of the grid (who decides whose consumption is renewable and whose is non-renewable?) rather than produced and consumed on-site.  And we'll be waiting a long time for an on-site producer/consumer to produce meaningful quantities of anything.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2018, 21:11:40 »
More info needed, particularly on energy in vs energy out.  A process running on "renewable" electrical energy sources is meaningless if the energy is being pulled out of the grid (who decides whose consumption is renewable and whose is non-renewable?) rather than produced and consumed on-site.  And we'll be waiting a long time for an on-site producer/consumer to produce meaningful quantities of anything.

TANSTAAFL seems to apply....

Quote
At least seven companies worldwide are working on the idea. Swiss-based Climeworks has already built a commercial-scale plant.

Carbon capture economics

It costs Climeworks about $600 US a tonne to remove carbon from the atmosphere. Carbon Engineering says it can do the job for between $94 US and $232 US a tonne because it uses technology and components that are well understood and commercially available.

"We're tapping into existing industrial equipment and then defining a new process and applying some unique chemistry to it," said Oldham.

Carbon Engineering's plant in Squamish, B.C., currently pulls about one tonne of carbon a day from the air and produces about two barrels of fuel. Since its components are off the rack, it should be easy to scale up, Oldham said.

"We've bought the smallest scalable unit of each piece of technology we have."

Carbon Engineering's fuel costs about 25 per cent more than gasoline made from oil. Oldham said work is being done to reduce that.

Because the plant currently uses some natural gas, by the time the fuel it produces has been burned it has released a half-tonne of carbon dioxide for every tonne removed from the air.
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Re: Federal Goverment's Kinder Morgan pipeline purchase
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2018, 23:43:25 »
Well, this is interesting.  A BC company claims to be sucking CO2 from the air and creating fuel. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-company-says-it-is-sucking-carbon-from-air-making-fuel-1.4696817

Many a scam has come out of Vancouver, investor beware.