Author Topic: US VS G7  (Read 35092 times)

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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2018, 18:02:19 »
We had hope for 8 years but change has spurred our economy.How's yours ?

Pretty good.  Lowest unemployment in 42 years.  You guys are only hitting an 18 year record.  :dunno:

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G2G

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2018, 18:08:02 »
Quote from: Altair

It's amazing watching a Empire fall.

Did Rome's trade partners and allies prosper when that nation fell? Honest question.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2018, 18:21:00 »
Did Rome's trade partners and allies prosper when that nation fell? Honest question.

Well, Rome didn't really have allies.  Other societies around it prospered because they feasted on the carcass of the empire.
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Offline Remius

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2018, 19:33:40 »
Well, Rome didn't really have allies.  Other societies around it prospered because they feasted on the carcass of the empire.

It had client states.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2018, 20:15:02 »
It had client states.

Which, some might suggest, is the model that President Trump understands and wants to emulate.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline Altair

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2018, 19:52:21 »
Which, some might suggest, is the model that President Trump understands and wants to emulate.
What could go wrong?
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2018, 19:31:08 »
Trump ran on Making  America Great Again and promised that the US would not be taken advantage any more that's what he's doing.He is talking to his base.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 21:22:02 by tomahawk6 »

Offline mariomike

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2018, 19:44:12 »
rump ran on Makin on the trade g America Great Again and promised that the US would not be taken advantage any more that's what he's doing.He is talking to his base.

Never heard him called that before.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2018, 19:58:10 »
Never heard him called that before.


You haven't been paying attention ... almost everyone calls him an ***.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2018, 23:54:47 »
Did Rome's trade partners and allies prosper when that nation fell? Honest question.

Rome fell after it stopped being able to keep the barbarians out due to the decline of internal management mechanisms etc. Basically: They got soft, the others didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire

Comparing the US with Ancient Rome is, while fun, also probably a pretty solid venture into false analogy land ;)
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Offline Altair

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2018, 01:38:22 »
Rome fell after it stopped being able to keep the barbarians out due to the decline of internal management mechanisms etc. Basically: They got soft, the others didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire

Comparing the US with Ancient Rome is, while fun, also probably a pretty solid venture into false analogy land ;)
Ineffective,  cruel,  incompetent emperors probably had something to do with it as well.

Commudus,  Severus,  Nero,  Tiberius,  Caracalla,  Caligula,  even the strongest empires can only withstand inept leadership for so long before things start to collapse.

But you are correct,  comparing the modern day USA to ancient rome is a false analogy.

America tearing down the liberal democratic order it spent decades building,  praising dictatorships and oligarchies while openly antagonizing allied democracies will cause a much quicker collapse of international prestige,  power and wealth than the slow collapse of the Roman empire.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2018, 03:26:18 »
Ineffective,  cruel,  incompetent emperors probably had something to do with it as well.

Commudus,  Severus,  Nero,  Tiberius,  Caracalla,  Caligula,  even the strongest empires can only withstand inept leadership for so long before things start to collapse.

But you are correct,  comparing the modern day USA to ancient rome is a false analogy.

America tearing down the liberal democratic order it spent decades building,  praising dictatorships and oligarchies while openly antagonizing allied democracies will cause a much quicker collapse of international prestige,  power and wealth than the slow collapse of the Roman empire.

Maybe Canada and the rest of Europe should help the US financially or if the US wanted to screw allies the US could just go full on isolationist.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2018, 06:06:07 »
Maybe Canada and the rest of Europe should help the US financially or if the US wanted to screw allies the US could just go full on isolationist.

Nothing the world hasn't seen from the U.S. before, with the 1930 Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, which many economists attribute world-wide deepening and prolongation of the Great Depression.  Only this time, seems the U.S. is in much better position to screw over the rest of the world (until the Dragon calls in its debt marker).  Not sure that's something to be proud of...but it is the will of the people...

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Offline Altair

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2018, 06:46:41 »
Nothing the world hasn't seen from the U.S. before, with the 1930 Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act, which many economists attribute world-wide deepening and prolongation of the Great Depression.  Only this time, seems the U.S. is in much better position to screw over the rest of the world (until the Dragon calls in its debt marker).  Not sure that's something to be proud of...but it is the will of the people...

Regards
G2G
I believe the world is more or less banking on this being a short term blip that has to be withstood before things return to normal in 2020.

At which point the USA has a lot of work to do trying to rebuild its reputation and relationship with its allies. Even then,  I don't think Europe or Canada will fully trust them again,  knowing that they can elect a populist with no regard for allies at any time.

Never mind if it goes on beyond 2020
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2018, 07:26:57 »
PLan on Trump winning in 2020.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2018, 07:29:44 »
PLan on Trump winning in 2020.

...and 2024 and 2028 and...

Offline Altair

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2018, 07:33:59 »
...and 2024 and 2028 and...
would there need to elections at that point or would he be president for life like his good friend Xi?
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2018, 07:44:53 »
PLan on Trump winning in 2020.


Anyone, anywhere, who is NOT planning on Trump being president until 2024 is a strategic nincompoop. In fact I suspect that the Trump Party might be a major factor in US politics for a generation.

Good, old fashioned, English liberalism was hijacked, in the 1940s, '50s and '60s by a (largely American) 'new liberal elite' that was unconcerned with individual rights and liberties and was focused, instead, on issues like productivity and lifting society, at large, out of poverty. They did a lot of good ... they gave us a 'new world order' that, by the 21st century, had lifted more people out of abject poverty in 50 years than had happened in 5,000+ years of recorder history. But in the process they excluded the 'ordinary' American, Brit, Canadian and Dane from the political process and they tried to move globalization from the economic realm to a broader social realm ... where, in my opinion, it does not belong. I think the populist reaction, Trump in America, Brexit in Britain and now Doug Ford in Canada, is the logical and even (by only a few) predictable result.

My, personal view, is that in Canada the Conservatives are trying to reclaim the 'classically liberal' ground, but the federal party may be split by one faction that wants to move very quickly. In Britain I see the Conservatives in ruins, split between those want to appease the populists, those who want to carry on as the 'new order elite' and those who want to reclaim traditional liberalism. In America I think the populists are in control of both the Tea Party and the Trump Party factions and I think the Democrats are on a long term, left leaning course. Someone needs to reinvent the Eisenhower Republicans with middle class, Main Street social and economic values.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline Baden Guy

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2018, 10:44:45 »
I think many people who vote Liberal would be delighted to vote for "  Eisenhower Republicans with middle class, Main Street social and economic values."
If only the option existed.  :(

Offline Altair

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2018, 10:59:02 »

Anyone, anywhere, who is NOT planning on Trump being president until 2024 is a strategic nincompoop. In fact I suspect that the Trump Party might be a major factor in US politics for a generation.

Good, old fashioned, English liberalism was hijacked, in the 1940s, '50s and '60s by a (largely American) 'new liberal elite' that was unconcerned with individual rights and liberties and was focused, instead, on issues like productivity and lifting society, at large, out of poverty. They did a lot of good ... they gave us a 'new world order' that, by the 21st century, had lifted more people out of abject poverty in 50 years than had happened in 5,000+ years of recorder history. But in the process they excluded the 'ordinary' American, Brit, Canadian and Dane from the political process and they tried to move globalization from the economic realm to a broader social realm ... where, in my opinion, it does not belong. I think the populist reaction, Trump in America, Brexit in Britain and now Doug Ford in Canada, is the logical and even (by only a few) predictable result.

My, personal view, is that in Canada the Conservatives are trying to reclaim the 'classically liberal' ground, but the federal party may be split by one faction that wants to move very quickly. In Britain I see the Conservatives in ruins, split between those want to appease the populists, those who want to carry on as the 'new order elite' and those who want to reclaim traditional liberalism. In America I think the populists are in control of both the Tea Party and the Trump Party factions and I think the Democrats are on a long term, left leaning course. Someone needs to reinvent the Eisenhower Republicans with middle class, Main Street social and economic values.
The Trump Party will be around for a long time, but how big is the Trump party?

Trump was elected president on a razor thin margin, with disenfranchised Democrats staying home or voting for trump. Trump did better with Latinos and Blacks than Romney did in 2012, what are the chances that happens again?

I don't think Democrats are going to sit at home fuming that their guy or gal didn't win the primary this time around, there is going to be a strong anti Trump movement come next election,and assuming the democrats don't pick the second most hated politician as their flag bearer, I don't think it's foolish to think that this may be a one time blip.
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Offline QV

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2018, 11:17:40 »
I will disagree with you there Altair.  The way I read it is there is only one thing that will sewer Trump for the next election and that is a crash in the US economy.  I believe in the last election the one thing holding him back from a larger victory was how unsure everyone was with this bombastic celebrity as president.  So long as the world isn't in WWIII and the American economy is humming along nicely (with all that entails) I think you will see a much larger victory in 2020 because the fence sitters will see that he hasn't wrecked the country and that in fact things have improved for most Americans.  The tax breaks, reduced regulations, potential for peace with NK - these are all huge things that a large majority of people approve of - despite what MSM says.     

If things get worse for most Americans, such as a significant economic down turn or the brink of nuclear war, then yes he will lose.  Hopefully none of those things happen, despite the wishes of folks like Bill Maher.

   


Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2018, 11:26:35 »
Things will get very ugly south of the border after the mid terms if the Dems take one or both legislatures, Trump and his base will rail like hell against them and have a perfect target to blame everything and nothing on, the main thing is lay blame and take credit at the same time. 

"Of course, populist protest is only partly economic. But even where that protest is cultural, it is fueled by way of mainstream neoliberalism, sanctimoniously pronouncing its policies to be based on scientific economics. Yet populists’ views about the economy are, to put it kindly, often ambiguous. Tea Party activists generated rage against the Affordable Care Act as a big-government imposition on them and a benefit to undeserving others—until Trump tried to repeal it and many noticed that it provides their health insurance .... Populism might be interpreted more consistently as holding that society, rather than government per se, can and must circumscribe the economy within its compass. Hence the opposition to trade treaties. This view is not obviously wrong. “Ideas, knowledge, science, hospitality, travel—these are the things which should of their nature be international,” John Maynard Keynes wrote. “But let goods be homespun whenever it is reasonably and conveniently possible, and, above all, let finance be primarily national.”

The North American Free Trade Agreement launched a far more extensive international economic regime than Keynes even imagined. It focuses less on trade per se—by the time it was negotiated the United States had already lifted nearly all obstacles to manufactured imports—than on protecting investors’ property rights and thus supporting their ability to move across borders."
   - Jonathan Schlefer "Market Parables and the Economics of Populism: When Experts Are Wrong, People Revolt" Foreign Affairs July 24, 2017

About the Eisenhower years, some of those were the St Laurent years in Canada until he was beaten by...a populist leader in charge of what soon became a factionalist party.   Since then, Conservatives have only governed when they are unified under a leader they believe in. This is also why our current PM is a populist, many of his own MP's do not trust him or even like him.
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Offline Baden Guy

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2018, 12:06:40 »
While I can't disagree with the points made by QV....

The new batch of politicians starting to campaign in their home districts are encountering voters who primary area of concern is healthcare.
 

Offline Remius

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2018, 13:25:18 »
Rome fell after it stopped being able to keep the barbarians out due to the decline of internal management mechanisms etc. Basically: They got soft, the others didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire

Comparing the US with Ancient Rome is, while fun, also probably a pretty solid venture into false analogy land ;)

There are a whole pile of reasons why the Roman Empire fell.  Death by a thousand cuts including economic ones.

I agree that it is a false analogy but there are many similarities that we are seeing.

Altair mentioned the inept leadership but I would label more as unpredictable leadership and inept government.  But other more comparable issues:

- Retreating from the world.  Rome abandoned their furthest territories.  Receding their military to deal with other issues.  Pulling forces from South Korea, Europe and the Middle East would be similar to Rome leaving Britain, Africa and the territories along the Rhine. 

- Immigration pressures.  Rome saw an influx of Goths seeking refuge in Roman territory.  They were fleeing the Huns and others.  similar to what we see at the Mexican border as well as in Europe.  Very similar. 

- A stagnation in the economy.  They stopped and reduced foreign trade to the massive imbalance in wealth among the population. 

Heck, just look at the financial crisis of 33 Ad, very similar to the US housing crisis.

One only has to look at Julius Caesar as well.  Very much a populist wanting to return the land to the people but also tried to make himself dictator for life to make it happen...
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Offline Altair

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Re: US VS G7
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2018, 14:14:09 »
There are a whole pile of reasons why the Roman Empire fell.  Death by a thousand cuts including economic ones.

I agree that it is a false analogy but there are many similarities that we are seeing.

Altair mentioned the inept leadership but I would label more as unpredictable leadership and inept government.  But other more comparable issues:

- Retreating from the world.  Rome abandoned their furthest territories.  Receding their military to deal with other issues.  Pulling forces from South Korea, Europe and the Middle East would be similar to Rome leaving Britain, Africa and the territories along the Rhine. 

- Immigration pressures.  Rome saw an influx of Goths seeking refuge in Roman territory.  They were fleeing the Huns and others.  similar to what we see at the Mexican border as well as in Europe.  Very similar. 

- A stagnation in the economy.  They stopped and reduced foreign trade to the massive imbalance in wealth among the population. 

Heck, just look at the financial crisis of 33 Ad, very similar to the US housing crisis.

One only has to look at Julius Caesar as well.  Very much a populist wanting to return the land to the people but also tried to make himself dictator for life to make it happen...
History does tend to repeat itself.
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