Author Topic: Conservatism needs work 2.0  (Read 6247 times)

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Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2018, 20:51:47 »
That's Canada-wide average. How do we compare as a province? Is Ontario dragging that average down?


Ontario: not too bad at all
PISA QUICK FACTS

The average Ontario science score was 524 in 2015, compared to 527 in 2012.
Students from six jurisdictions (Singapore, Alberta, British Columbia, Japan, Quebec and Estonia) had science results that were statistically higher than Ontario’s.1
Ontario students matched the Canadian average for both the test overall and all the science subskills evaluated.
As in all Canadian provinces, no gender differences in overall science were observed in Ontario.


The average Ontario reading score was 527 in 2015, compared to 528 in 2012.
In 2015, no jurisdictions had results statistically higher than Ontario’s.
Ontario students’ reading achievement matched the Canadian average.


After a decline in math between 2003 and 2012, the performance of Ontario students remained stable over the 2012 to 2015 period.
In 2015, students from 11 jurisdictions (Singapore, Hong Kong‒China, Quebec, Macao‒China, Chinese Taipei, Japan, BSJG‒China, Korea, Switzerland, Estonia and Canada) performed better than Ontario’s in math.
Among Canadian provinces, only Quebec had results statistically higher than Ontario’s. Ontario students performed just below the Canadian students’ average, and they are still among the top 25% of participating jurisdictions.




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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2018, 20:55:30 »
But what about leavng it to parents? That hasn't been done since I was in  public school in the 1960s, but what about it? Can all parents really be trusted

Maybe my point didn't come across well.  What I was getting at was that it is a parents job to discuss with a child what the child is being taught at school.  Parents should be more focused on talking with their kids as opposed to running around with signs and protesting the curriculum.

As others pointed out, if there is something to really be concerned about in the curriculum, this is it.
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Offline whiskey601

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2018, 22:17:16 »
How about we are not allowed to give a grade of zero for crap work. How about we can’t remove students who grab and twist the crotch of other students they feel are inferior. How about the fact parents sue teachers and school boards because little Susie isn’t happy with the fact her “safe space” is not a place for her to use as a shield while she throws her venom at others. Everything has gone too far, and far too many parents are interested in litigation and defamation rather than take responsibility for the few precious lives our country brings into this world.
PBI is correct in an oblique way, things went off the rails in the 60’s. And he’s also right that schools have an obligation to reinforce gender and sexual identification, but I think where we differ ( and I admit I am on the inside teaching in two levels of education)  is the boomerang effect on kids (less than 16 YOA) who are being tracked by teachers or faculty for extra “reinforcement”, or who are too often ridiculed for not wanting to be “outed” or willing to join a GSA, or who often may not fall into any category other than straight, but most common of all those who are simply too damned young to know and feel more confused about that one issue which derails them when we really need them most to focus on succeeding in basic educational skills.
Further, as of yesterday we ditched discovery math. At the post secondary level, we see that high school experiment failed and we have had to fill our engineering and science programs with international students.  I have more post sec students who can tell me that Sir John was an drunken land grabbing murderer of FN, than those who can tell me he was an astute politician who understood the importance of nationhood, commerce and yes, social development. After all, he was a single parent of a child with a severe disability.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 23:06:47 by whiskey601 »

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2018, 13:01:43 »
Sounds like Canadian education needs work 2.0!  Who approves this crap?  Provincial politicians or school boards?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2018, 14:19:02 »
I don't know if it's universal (all provinces), but provincial ministries (bureaucrats, not politicians, although with some unavoidable political contamination) set most curricula.  School boards have limited authority.
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Offline Altair

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2018, 15:15:20 »
Same here. This is one of those issues that I'll be watching. The most recent statement by the new Minister of Education indicates that they will scrap it and roll back to the 1998 curriculum while they study the issue and consult with a larger group of parents.

I don't see how they can avoid the rollback since that was a big campaign promise. What I want to see is the degree of consultation and how much they'll be influenced by the conservative and religious groups who opposed it rather than by the majority of the public who have no problem with the new curriculum. That's a long term issue to watch for.

 :cheers:
meanwhile, in quebec.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-ontario-rolls-back-sex-ed-curriculum-quebec-to-teach-kindergarteners-how-babies-are-made-1.4744764

Quote
But just as Ontario is set to make the change in the fall, the province of Quebec will soon start teaching sex-ed again after it was dropped from the school curriculum a decade ago. Coming in September, it will be a mandatory subject in every grade, beginning in kindergarten.

"We're actually implementing a much broader sexual education program across the board from elementary to high school, which takes into account today's reality. And certainly, with a broader lens when it comes to sexual education," said Joly.

Joly said the new changes come as a result of years of work, and after the success of three years of pilot projects in more than 200 schools across Quebec.

He said kindergarteners will be introduced to things like their body parts and how babies are made. Students will learn about same sex relationships and homophobia as early as Grades 3 and 4. More in-depth issues such as managing conflicts within relationships will be learned in older grades.

Go figure.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2018, 16:58:31 »
The furor arises over muddying the line between sex education and sexuality education, and in particular when (at what age) (and for some, if) the latter is appropriate.
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Offline pbi

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2018, 11:43:53 »
Maybe my point didn't come across well.  What I was getting at was that it is a parents job to discuss with a child what the child is being taught at school.  Parents should be more focused on talking with their kids as opposed to running around with signs and protesting the curriculum.

As others pointed out, if there is something to really be concerned about in the curriculum, this is it.

OK. I'm with you now. :nod:
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Offline pbi

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2018, 12:40:36 »
How about we are not allowed to give a grade of zero for crap work. How about we can’t remove students who grab and twist the crotch of other students they feel are inferior. How about the fact parents sue teachers and school boards because little Susie isn’t happy with the fact her “safe space” is not a place for her to use as a shield while she throws her venom at others. Everything has gone too far, and far too many parents are interested in litigation and defamation rather than take responsibility for the few precious lives our country brings into this world...

I agree fully with you. I have two teachers in my family, and I would not want their jobs. On the one hand, whiny, entitled, bitchy and unpredictably violent kids acting out in class because of the stupid, undisciplined, self-indulgent way they were raised. On the other hand, whiny, entitled, "hyper-parents" demanding that their kids be MBA-ready by age 12, and endlessly threatening the schools with this, that and everything else if little Johnny, or Omar, or Wing or Juan doesn't get straight A's, or the teacher (God forbid!!) tries to discipline the little savage. Add to that various parents trying to impose their particular cultural or religious beliefs in the classroom. SIDEBAR: One of my relatives told me about parents of a certain persuasion who advised that their little dear was not to have Pepsi at snack time because "that is made by Jews".
Add to all that an endless flow of "better ideas" from the curriculum folks, little or no prep time, and school administrations too gun shy to back up teachers, and it's a pretty difficult situation. Too bad, because education is what makes us a civilized society. If the system that delivers it is in trouble, so are we.

Quote
PBI is correct in an oblique way, things went off the rails in the 60’s. And he’s also right that schools have an obligation to reinforce gender and sexual identification, but I think where we differ ( and I admit I am on the inside teaching in two levels of education)  is the boomerang effect on kids (less than 16 YOA) who are being tracked by teachers or faculty for extra reinforcement, or who are too often ridiculed for not wanting to be “outed” or willing to join a GSA, or who often may not fall into any category other than straight, but most common of all those who are simply too damned young to know and feel more confused about that one issue which derails them when we really need them most to focus on succeeding in basic educational skills.

I agree, mostly. I experienced the radical leftward swing in education when I entered high school in 1970. Some terrible ideas were put into practice, emanating from places like the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education (OISE) which may actually have been a branch of the KGB. Even at my young age I could sense the leftward tilt of things. Now, I'm not saying we should have gone back to one room school houses and nothing but "The Three Rs", but there is a middle ground of common sense and I think that was overshot by quite a bit.

A far as LGBTQ kids go, and how they should be treated, and what kids should learn about sexual orientation, I speak from the perspective of having two gay kids (now adults), and having military friends with gay or trans kids. The most important thing (IMHO) is not to single anybody out (that can backfire, as a form of target identification), but to teach that all people need to be judged on what they do and how they treat others, and what they are capable of doing, rather than on their sexual orientation. This will never be accepted by everybody, and there will always be some parents who will be mortified by the idea that an LGBTQ person could actually be a good, productive human being. Fine. This is no different from parents who don't like the way history is taught, or don't want evolution taught in science, or don't want kids doing music or dancing, or boys and girls playing in a mixed playground., or, or, or.....

Quote
Further, as of yesterday we ditched discovery math. At the post secondary level, we see that high school experiment failed and we have had to fill our engineering and science programs with international students.  I have more post sec students who can tell me that Sir John was an drunken land grabbing murderer of FN, than those who can tell me he was an astute politician who understood the importance of nationhood, commerce and yes, social development. After all, he was a single parent of a child with a severe disability.

Good riddance to discovery math. But it was probably only typical, anyway. Having taught a few syndicates of our best and brightest captains, I've seen the decay of basic skills such as the ability to express oneself clearly on paper or orally, or the ability to pay attention to detail. Military history (or history in general...) also seemed to me to be a dying art. If that was the case with  officers, I can only imagine how decayed things must be on civvy street. The whole business about Sir John A is really PC and victim culture gone overboard. I live in Kingston and I was very angry to see a) his statue in City Park defaced; and b) the Sir John A pub change its name. Totally unnecessary and stupid.

If (as is quite possible, and maybe even true) Sir John A or any other great figure committed sins, then let's not hide the facts. History must be truthful if it is to be valuable, warts and all. Good people do bad things. No issue there. Document the facts.

But let's not (once again...) go overboard and trash a huge part of our own history by pulling down statues or otherwise acting ashamed of people who built the foundations of this country. Some people might want to pause for a second and imagine just what the fate of this chunk of North America might have been, if not for Sir John. Instead of the shameful residential schools, we might have had a real campaign of genocide, carried out by the US Army.


The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline ballz

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2018, 15:49:22 »
I think "conservatives" are split right now between social conservatives and liberty conservatives... liberty conservatives are a growing demographic and will hopefully soon be the undisputed leader of conservatives. However, they still can't lose social conservatism or the "right" will be split.

There needs to be almost a formal acknowledgement from both sides. The social conservatives need to agree that despite their personal morals / beliefs about social issues like marriage, drug use, sex, parenting, et al.... they may be right but the government shouldn't be used to force that onto everyone else.

The liberty conservatives need to do a better job of acknowledging that while the government shouldn't be used to force values on everyone else... the old traditional values espoused by social conservatives like not having recreational sex, recreational drug use, respect for your parents, eating dinner as a family, community/church involvement, the importance of marriage, etc, help keep society functioning in the absence of government intervention and should be respected/promoted.

In my opinion, if we have that, the swamp of vitriol will dry up / can simply be ignored since you'd have enough united small "c" conservatives under one tent.
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Offline pbi

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 13:39:57 »
Quote
In my opinion, if we have that, the swamp of vitriol will dry up / can simply be ignored since you'd have enough united small "c" conservatives under one tent.

I am with you on this. I also agree (pretty much) with the list of values you identified as being important, but isn't imposing these also a form of "government intervention"?

The trick IMHO will be for moderate conservative leaders to avoid the strong temptation to whip up the social conservatives (especially the more extreme ones, both native-born and recent immigrant). It's quite easy to do, and produces very loud and satisfying media, but in the long run it can just promote a different form of government oppression of peoples' private lives.

I think that Harper was able to do this  balancing to a certain extent, once he got rolling, although the Tories got a bit desperate toward the end in the last federal election.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2018, 14:22:03 »
I certainly wish there was more libertarian in the conservatism on offer today, I just don't see it. The political landscape is just dominated by bribing voters with a continual onslaught of subsidies,tax breaks and blind ideology no matter what the real cost while bitching about taxes the very next morning at Tim's.

With regards to education, I'm not sure when this golden age ever existed. Not for my parent's educated in one room school houses. It wasn't even that long ago that teachers themselves were barely educated past grade 13. Math itself is not a strong point for most people in my opinion, were my parents better at repetitive addition than my children, for sure. Better at mathematics as a whole, not by a long shot. I don't know really anything about Discovery math but I'm guessing it was at least partially driven in an attempt to get more students to complete their schooling with greater skills than previous students had acquired. Until recently I think the number of students completing secondary school had been around 67%(?), I think a lot of effort in recent years has been to push students through and graduate them from secondary school at what ever the cost in overall quality of education level. Cursive writing, like most I was taught it, I'm trying to remember the last time I used it or even saw it, decades at least now.

Offline recceguy

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2018, 14:37:11 »
I use cursive writing everyday. I think it's horrible when I see senior students etc badly printing their name in the signature block. It looks like it was signed by my 5 year old grandson. Important documents like copies of the charter or constitution in their original cursive writing will be unintelligible to those attempting to read them in that form.

My grandson will know cursive. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I think it's still important.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2018, 14:49:31 »
I agree with a move to a more libertarian stance. There is too much government intrusion into our lives. Peace, order and good government is gone, but not so far that we can't get it back with more personal involvement and not backing off on our demands to those in power that used to take care and work for us. Governments need to go back to their role of employee, not employer
They work for us. We should be telling them what and what not to do. Not the other way around. Mechanics need to be put in place so that when they don't follow direction, they can be bounced from power immediately. Not four years later, when we're on the other side of the precipice and the damage is irreparable.
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Offline Remius

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2018, 14:50:31 »
I use cursive writing everyday. I think it's horrible when I see senior students etc badly printing their name in the signature block. It looks like it was signed by my 5 year old grandson. Important documents like copies of the charter or constitution in their original cursive writing will be unintelligible to those attempting to read them in that form.

My grandson will know cursive. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I think it's still important.

Some states in the US are going back to it.

https://education.cu-portland.edu/blog/classroom-resources/5-reasons-cursive-writing-should-be-taught-in-school/

My son's private school teaches it from day one.  Including kindergarten where they are taught how to properly hold a writing tool, be it a pen or pencil or crayon.

It is still important.  For various reasons.

I compare it to a compass/GPS issue.  Who needs a compass when you have GPS right?  We all know the answer to that.
Optio

Offline recceguy

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2018, 15:10:28 »
God bless my daughter and son in law for trying to hold things together in this age. Public or separate schools were their only choice. My grandson would just be starting kindergarten now. I've been paying his tuition, to Montessori, for two years. I will continue to pay his tuition till he's equipped to exceĺ above the public system. He is 5. He can print. He can print complete sentences. He can read every book he has(lots). He can do basic math and and knows money. In the public system he'd be playing with blocks in his first year.

I won't deny paying for private education is hard. When I look at where our country might be in 20 years, I'll be confident that he'll be equipped for whatever comes his way. I will afford him whatever I can to excel above his publically educated counterparts.
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2018, 15:19:42 »
God bless my daughter and son in law for trying to hold things together in this age. Public or separate schools were their only choice. My grandson would just be starting kindergarten now. I've been paying his tuition, to Montessori, for two years. I will continue to pay his tuition till he's equipped to exceĺ above the public system. He is 5. He can print. He can print complete sentences. He can read every book he has(lots). He can do basic math and and knows money. In the public system he'd be playing with blocks in his first year.

I won't deny paying for private education is hard. When I look at where our country might be in 20 years, I'll be confident that he'll be equipped for whatever comes his way. I will afford him whatever I can to excel above his publically educated counterparts.
Having taught in Asia, Africa, Europe and North America I can personally attest to the excellence of our publicly funded education systems in Canada. The data (both quantitative and qualitative) bear this out. Can we improve? Absolutely. My wife and I can most certainly afford to send our child to a private school but why would we when our public school are so good? 


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Offline ballz

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2018, 15:25:04 »
I am with you on this. I also agree (pretty much) with the list of values you identified as being important, but isn't imposing these also a form of "government intervention"?

I don't think any of those values should be "imposed" thats why I used the words "respected/promoted."

Also, because its of personal interest to yourself, when I said "marriage" I didn't mean to promote "traditional marriage." I was talking about the ideas surrounding marriage that promote that marriage is an important commitment, divorce shouldnt be taken lightly, raising a family is a two-person job, etc. All of which should be promoted but certainly not imposed. I dont think the gov't should be in business of "licensing" marriages at all.
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Offline recceguy

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2018, 15:34:03 »
I'm not condemning the public system, I just don't know if it will meet our needs in 20 years. I don't like the social engineering and constant change in curriculums. My grandson is also starting to speak Mandarin, French and Spanish. Sentences, not just odd words
Will all the others stuff already mentioned, hes well on his way already. Not heading to school for the first time to sing songs in kindergarten. Hes already ahead of the curve and I will afford the opportunity for him to continue till he decides otherwise.

Given all that, we all still support the public system through our taxes. Some people think us seniors don't continue to pay our share in retirement. I'm paying both. My choice and I'm not screaming an entitlement to only pay private and not public. It's just the way it is.
Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2018, 15:37:26 »
It's one thing to learn cursive or math in school it's another to be proficient at it. I feel I would struggle greatly to write in cursive today and for what purpose? Does my pen break today, will my ink run out. Those were reasons to use cursive in the past that don't exist today. My children were taught cursive, is it a sure thing that it's not taught in school today. It's not a hill i'm going to die on just a curiosity. I doubt that the one third of students that have historically failed to complete secondary school were ever proficient at any of these tasks. I'm far more concerned with the lack of history and science being taught in high school.

Offline pbi

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2018, 16:01:05 »
I don't think any of those values should be "imposed" thats why I used the words "respected/promoted."

Also, because its of personal interest to yourself, when I said "marriage" I didn't mean to promote "traditional marriage." I was talking about the ideas surrounding marriage that promote that marriage is an important commitment, divorce shouldnt be taken lightly, raising a family is a two-person job, etc. All of which should be promoted but certainly not imposed. I dont think the gov't should be in business of "licensing" marriages at all.

OK, seen.

I am glad to hear that you don't limit the institution of marriage to its "traditional" definition., although I have now spent 35 years in a traditional marriage.

What matters to me in describing marriage and a stable family life is the conviction, dedication and patience necessary to make a marriage work, and the endless effort to raise kids with some semblance of decency and responsibility in their characters. Not what sex the couple are.  People aren't automatically good parents because of their sexual orientation: there are excellent hetero parents and there are terrible gay parents. But there are vice versa too: "traditional" marriage (as that term is most commonly used) is not really a guarantee of anything, that I can see.

Whose business is it, really, if two people of consenting age (and sufficient maturity) love each other and want to establish a stable and lasting relationship? If no harm is done, and nobody is taken advantage of or abused, then I say it really is their business alone.

But I fear I do preach too much.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

Offline Loachman

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2018, 16:27:56 »
My grandson would just be starting kindergarten now. I've been paying his tuition, to Montessori, for two years. I will continue to pay his tuition till he's equipped to exceĺ above the public system. He is 5. He can print. He can print complete sentences. He can read every book he has(lots). He can do basic math and and knows money. In the public system he'd be playing with blocks in his first year.

My first exposure to the Canadian/Ontarian education system was in September 1965. I was immediately underwhelmed by my classmates' inability to read smoothly (listening to their halting, broken efforts was painful), write coherently, spell with any accuracy, or do simple arithmetic.

I was put in with my age group upon arrival, but was two or three years ahead educationally.

We did not waste a whole year with half-day kindergartenish games and naps. We began spelling, reading, and basic arithmetic on our first day - and a full day, at that. Standards were high. There was a lot of rote learning (like multiplication tables), yes, and while that may not have been fun at the time (but we just did it, and I do not recall any complaints), it still serves me well. It probably got me through Aircrew Selection - there was no interweb when I did that, and no means of preparing. Everybody went into it cold, and the same went for CFAT (if it was even called that when I went Regular Force in 1978). I broke the record on the CF Staff School threshold grammar test in early 1988, and credit that to my early education in England (plus a few well-above-average teachers here, later).

My sister, four years younger, began school in Ontario and wasted that first kindergarten year. I could not understand the reason behind kindergarten at all. She, like my classmates, had great difficulty reading in the early grades. I tried to help, baffled when she stumbled over simple words. "You know that word", I'd say. "We haven't taken in yet", was her response. "Sound it out". She couldn't. "Whole word learning" was the concept; sounding words out was just not done. I considered that to be ridiculous, even at ten or eleven. Eventually, I got her reading the proper way.

I am a big believer in giving a solid foundation in basics, including history and geography, which is one of the prime reasons that I go back to my old high school for the Remembrance Day speaking programme. It is heartening to see that at least some teachers and students care, and that the unusually high standard at Stratford Northwestern has not visibly declined since the mid-seventies.

My last ex-wife was a high school teacher, and believed that it was and more important to teach kids where to find information than to actually know any. If one does not know anything, though, how does one know what information to seek?

She also had lots of complaints about the education system, but was clueless regarding corrective measures.

Offline Loachman

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2018, 16:49:14 »
I am glad to hear that you don't limit the institution of marriage to its "traditional" definition., although I have now spent 35 years in a traditional marriage.

I view "marriage" in traditional terms, as it originally was: a religious construct, and the purview of the Church (synagogue/mosque/temple/wherever the Flying Spaghetti Monster hangs out/etcetera).

There is a contractual/legal side as well, which is the purview of applicable governments: registration/divorce laws/benefits such as pensions/etcetera. Civil, Common-Law, and Elvis-in-Las-Vegas marriages meet those requirements.

Most people seem to like some sort of ceremony on top of the contractual side, which may or may not be religious, and that is entirely up to their discretion. As long as no laws are broken in the process, the ceremonial aspect is no business of anybody beyond the Happy Couple (whatever its component parts may be).

And should that be limited to a "couple"? I find it odd that three or more people can live together in a sexual relationship completely legally as long as they are "single", but commit a crime if they all "marry". Informal polygamy is legal, but formal polygamy is not.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2018, 07:42:35 »
I view "marriage" in traditional terms, as it originally was: a religious construct, and the purview of the Church (synagogue/mosque/temple/wherever the Flying Spaghetti Monster hangs out/etcetera).

There is a contractual/legal side as well, which is the purview of applicable governments: registration/divorce laws/benefits such as pensions/etcetera. Civil, Common-Law, and Elvis-in-Las-Vegas marriages meet those requirements.

Most people seem to like some sort of ceremony on top of the contractual side, which may or may not be religious, and that is entirely up to their discretion. As long as no laws are broken in the process, the ceremonial aspect is no business of anybody beyond the Happy Couple (whatever its component parts may be).

And should that be limited to a "couple"? I find it odd that three or more people can live together in a sexual relationship completely legally as long as they are "single", but commit a crime if they all "marry". Informal polygamy is legal, but formal polygamy is not.

I'm too lazy to dig our citations (Diarmed MacCulloch would be one source) but in Christendom, at least (I don't know about the Jews) the church didn't take any interest in common marriages until some time around the year 1,000. The Church was very interested in the marriage contracts of the nobility and so on, but ordinary people made what were, essentially, civll contracts ... usually in front of family members, sometimes for prosperous commoners in front of the whole village.

As stone churches became more common they were the "best" place in the village and many marriages were celebrated on the church steps ~ rather like my son and daughter-in-law who chose (and paid heavily for a permit for) a site for their wedding which had the iconic Sydney Opera House as a backdrop. Some clerics began to see this as a good source of revenue and offered, for a small fee, to officiate at the ceremony ... but, in most of the Anglo-Saxon world (including in Hong Kong) we still have a formal, civil, contractual element of marriage that s required even if a marriage is officiated by a clergyman.

Maybe the "traditional," "religious construct" isn't as traditional as we believe.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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Offline pbi

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Re: Conservatism needs work 2.0
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2018, 13:31:29 »
I view "marriage" in traditional terms, as it originally was: a religious construct, and the purview of the Church (synagogue/mosque/temple/wherever the Flying Spaghetti Monster hangs out/etcetera).

I did not mean, at all, to demean traditional marriage between a man and a woman (after all, that's what I've been up to for the last good while...), nor did I want to question anybody who wants their faith to have a place in the marriage ceremony, which we also did. That is all good and I would never take that away from people.

What I don't understand at all, is why some people who enjoy the benefits of a faith-based, traditional marriage seem so vocal about denying the same happiness to people who are different. To say that gay marriage is a "threat" to traditional marriage makes no sense to me at all. The players are in two different leagues. IMHO the threat to traditional marriage (if there is one) is divorce and possibly lack of commitment. Those things end more traditional marriages than anything else: the fact that gay people might get married seems to me to pose very little threat to hetero couples who also want to tie the knot.

Hmmmm....we might have strayed off topic here a bit..... :orly:
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...