Author Topic: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada  (Read 2268 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« on: July 05, 2018, 10:19:14 »

Offline Baz

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2018, 10:31:28 »
To be fair, the article says "sovereignty is disputed by Washington."  In these situations the "offended" country need to be infdignant to maintain their claim.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2018, 10:34:35 »
There is a Canadian light house so that reinforces Canadian jurisdiction IMO.

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2018, 10:53:48 »
Yeah, but it probably uses a 'made in America' candle.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2018, 10:56:06 »
While that may be so, T6, it remains that wether it be in the disputed waters of Dixon Entrance or Grand Manan passage, charts (it's charts for waters - not maps, BTW) from each country reflect that country's position. So if you overlay the charts issued by the Canadian Hydrographic Services over the ones issued by the N.O.A.A. for those areas, you'll find that the "borders" don't match.

I am pretty sure the US Border Services boat was using American charts, so probably thought itself on the right side of the border.  ;)

However, it's silly of him/her to have thought that a boat clearly looking like a fishing vessel would be used to carry migrants into the US at a point where there is actually a record of zero migrants trying to enter the US.

P.S. The Canadian fishermen's complaints about bullying by American either fishermen or officials in that area date back to your War of Independence. In fact, it is what led to the creation by Canada shortly after Confederation of it's armed Fisheries Protection organization, which was the ancestor of the Royal Canadian Navy.

Offline FSTO

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2018, 11:08:35 »
While that may be so, T6, it remains that wether it be in the disputed waters of Dixon Entrance or Grand Manan passage, charts (it's charts for waters - not maps, BTW) from each country reflect that country's position. So if you overlay the charts issued by the Canadian Hydrographic Services over the ones issued by the N.O.A.A. for those areas, you'll find that the "borders" don't match.

I am pretty sure the US Border Services boat was using American charts, so probably thought itself on the right side of the border.  ;)

However, it's silly of him/her to have thought that a boat clearly looking like a fishing vessel would be used to carry migrants into the US at a point where there is actually a record of zero migrants trying to enter the US.

P.S. The Canadian fishermen's complaints about bullying by American either fishermen or officials in that area date back to your War of Independence. In fact, it is what led to the creation by Canada shortly after Confederation of it's armed Fisheries Protection organization, which was the ancestor of the Royal Canadian Navy.

Nothing new to see here. Descendants of the 13 Colonies have been pushing the limits of their borders since the first attack on Quebec City in 1690!

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2018, 11:27:18 »
If there isn't a Coast Guard presence in the area I would not be there.Reminded me of the British pressing sailors we fought a war over that. ;D

Offline FSTO

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2018, 11:36:24 »
If there isn't a Coast Guard presence in the area I would not be there. Reminded me of the British pressing sailors we fought a war over that. ;D

Oh yes, the "Only a matter of marching!" thing. LOL!


On thing that really annoys me is the amount of Canadians who think that we have no history prior to 1867. You guys praise Lewis and Clark but those Johnny come lately were at the Pacific 12 years after Alexander Mackenzie

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2018, 11:45:45 »
Yes, T6. That was the lamest excuse by the US government to actually start the war against the British, invading Canada (first) and burning down York (the whole town) because the hawkish members of the government thought they could take over Canada in a cake walk while the British regulars were busy fighting Napoleon. You reaped what you sew.

I say lame excuse because the Royal Navy was never actively seeking American seamen to impress. They only impressed seamen of obvious English/Scottish or Irish origin who claimed to be American citizens but could not prove their assertion when they came upon them in the course of their otherwise normal intervention. All the US government had to do was to issue proper citizenship identification to its seamen and all would have been resolved, as the RN respected proper documentation. Your government chose instead to try and make it a "casus belli".

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2018, 12:13:36 »
I remember visiting Ft York years ago,and  was on a tour with a bunch of kids and when we were told about British victories a cheer went up surreal,but I had a nice time in Canada. ;D
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 14:47:09 by tomahawk6 »

Offline Loachman

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2018, 15:04:38 »
So if you overlay the charts issued by the Canadian Hydrographic Services over the ones issued by the N.O.A.A. for those areas, you'll find that the "borders" don't match.

One hopes that President Trump does not take up this difference of opinion.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2018, 15:11:34 »
We have a salient of Minnesota called the Angle is in Canada maybe a swap can be worked out.  ;D

http://mentalfloss.com/article/32090/over-borderline-little-bit-minnesota-could-have-gone-canadian

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2018, 18:47:44 »
>otherwise normal intervention

Asserting the right to board a flagged warship of another nation, even then, was unusual.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2018, 19:07:30 »
It was merchant ships that were boarded, particularly to ensure that the US was NOT aiding continental European trade to reach the West indies under a travesty of neutrality (running the cargo through US ports to declare it destined to a neutral when it was never destined for another place than the West Indies and US merchantmen would immediately reload it in their holds to deliver to the West Indies) .

The only exception was the boarding of the USS Chesapeake, which was done for the specific purpose of finding and arresting British deserters that had been clearly identified as being on board. Even in that boarding, the R.N. respected proper evidence of American citizenship when it was presented to them for the three deserters, but found one more deserters and a few British seamen who could not provide such documentation.

Again, the US reaped what it seeded. Had their merchant seamen and shipping companies not tried to get rich by running cargo subject to British quarantine on behalf of the states the British were fighting in Europe, none of this would have happened.

Sorry, Brad: the US still doesn't get a bye on that one.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2018, 19:15:41 »
I guess we won't discuss Canadian privateers/pirates.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2018, 19:25:52 »
Nor us the Fenian raids: It never ends T6.

But those privateers were told they'd sail to seize some American gold, would fire no rounds nor shed tears, but ended up broken men on a Halifax pier. Sorry! Canadiana here and I couldn't resist.

There is one thing in which, however, nowadays (say since about the early 1900) Canadians and Americans are joined in their North American approach: We are quite willing to have peaceful relations with our neighbours and let go of the grudges of the past - unlike Europeans and Middle-easterners who keep the flames of past wrongs from centuries (nay! nay! Millennium) past continue for ever between neighbouring cities, counties, "nations" and countries over past wrongs no one remembers (like "the cows of the tribe across the river came over and grazed in our field for a few days but they wouldn't replace the hay they ate").

 ;D   

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2018, 19:30:07 »
We can laugh about it now after 200 years.  ;D

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2018, 19:40:33 »
>The only exception was the boarding of the USS Chesapeake

That's exactly the one.  I understand the concept of "hot pursuit", but I don't see it as much different from landing forces to seize known deserters ashore.  It was casus belli.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Despair is a sin.

Offline Colin P

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2018, 10:29:06 »
While that may be so, T6, it remains that wether it be in the disputed waters of Dixon Entrance or Grand Manan passage, charts (it's charts for waters - not maps, BTW) from each country reflect that country's position. So if you overlay the charts issued by the Canadian Hydrographic Services over the ones issued by the N.O.A.A. for those areas, you'll find that the "borders" don't match.

I am pretty sure the US Border Services boat was using American charts, so probably thought itself on the right side of the border.  ;)

However, it's silly of him/her to have thought that a boat clearly looking like a fishing vessel would be used to carry migrants into the US at a point where there is actually a record of zero migrants trying to enter the US.

P.S. The Canadian fishermen's complaints about bullying by American either fishermen or officials in that area date back to your War of Independence. In fact, it is what led to the creation by Canada shortly after Confederation of it's armed Fisheries Protection organization, which was the ancestor of the Royal Canadian Navy.

Same issue on the westcoast, at Dixon Entrance. Plus there is the Joy of the Strait of Juan De Fuca and Point Roberts. The Yellow line is the border and note BC ferries sail through US waters.


Offline Good2Golf

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Re: US Border Patrol Strayed Into Canada
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2018, 13:27:37 »
Can't find an online reference, but I know there is an agreement between CAN-US LEAs/BPs allowing cross-border pursuits, if suspect vessels/aircraft (which I've been a part of)/etc. attempt to cross a border to evade and the other jurisdiction is not immediately available/present.  Notwithstanding the apparent lack of clarity with where the border actually is, investigation/pursuit does not appear to be with malice (of course, my own perspective, having flown jointly with DEA and CBP resources).

...my :2c:

G2G