Author Topic: New Ontario Government 2018  (Read 21826 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #175 on: September 12, 2018, 13:54:41 »
Okay, so forget comparisons then.

Why?


Offline mick

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #176 on: September 12, 2018, 13:58:24 »
Maybe it is possible to be relatively over-represented, but I don't think it's just a simple matter of cutting a deliberative body in half in the name of saving money, or for the notion of making consensus easier or decision-making less burdensome.

A larger, more diverse population will always be more difficult to democratically empower, compared to a smaller population.  Larger population = more representation.

I agree that it's possible to tweak / overhaul the status quo, but slashing by 50 percent - with no studies or research to justify it - seems a bit arbitrary.

Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #177 on: September 12, 2018, 14:06:02 »
Okay, so forget comparisons then.

Why?

IS there too many councilors to get anything done?

The work will always get done. Depends on how long the taxpayers are willing to wait, and what level of service they expect.

We could ask the same question, "How many police officers, firefighters and paramedics does the city need?"

The taxpayers get the level of protection and service that they pay for.

Former ( Conservative ) Ontario premier Bill Davis: Ford wrong to use notwithstanding clause
https://tvo.org/blog/current-affairs/former-ontario-premier-bill-davis-ford-wrong-to-use-notwithstanding-clause

For reference to the discussion, prior to 1998, Toronto had well over 100 councillors, and six mayors and six city halls.

The geographic size remains the same now as it was prior to 1998. The geographic area remains the same now as it was in 1954.

I am sure the population has increased significantly since then, however.


 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 14:30:30 by mariomike »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #178 on: September 12, 2018, 14:34:21 »
Less representation in the name of: cost saving?

Getting stuff done quicker.
Not being slowed down by endless red tape and bureaucracy.
Trimming fat.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #179 on: September 12, 2018, 14:36:25 »
Why?

Because the core of my question is will this action of cutting councilors actually improve the situation in Toronto or make it worse.

Common complaint, it takes forever to get anything done and there's too many hands in the pot. Will axeing these counclers fix that?
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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #180 on: September 12, 2018, 14:40:43 »
Regarding whatever the correct the ratio of councillors to residents is.

Worth mentioning that one-third of Canada's population lives within 160 km of Toronto.

A significant percentage of them come into Toronto for employment, or other reasons.

So, the work these councillors do has an impact on them as well. Even though they pay their property taxes to other municipalities.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 14:43:21 by mariomike »

Offline mick

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #181 on: September 12, 2018, 14:48:56 »
Getting stuff done quicker.
Not being slowed down by endless red tape and bureaucracy.
Trimming fat.

Are we now counting elected officials as part of the bureaucracy?  Does parliamentary process count as "red tape"?  Is democratic debate the process that needs to be culled?  Or is it implementation of that is slowed by bureaucratic processes and delays (by the actual bureaucracy)?

Using the same logic, why not cut the number of federal MPs in half?

Will Premier Ford "trim fat" by reducing Ontario MPPs by half?

Online Remius

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #182 on: September 12, 2018, 15:10:21 »
Because the core of my question is will this action of cutting councilors actually improve the situation in Toronto or make it worse.

Common complaint, it takes forever to get anything done and there's too many hands in the pot. Will axeing these counclers fix that?

Honest question, because I'm not from Toronto.  What is slowing things down and not getting done?  What is the real reason for the council's dysfunction if it exists at all?

I'm all for efficiency but I would like to know what is inefficient about Toronto that other cities are excluded from the axe?  In Ottawa the Light rail has been delayed twice now and it took years to build a pedestrian bridge.  Was it too many councillors?  Lack of councillors?  Not really, just bad contracts and shoddy city staff work.

Over the years, would not a drug using Mayor with one mess after another supported by his brother be a source of dysfunction?

Apparently this guy , a Ford ally is one such source of problems...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/matt-elliott-on-councillor-giorgio-mammoliti-1.4799032

I agree that the Premier can do this and is well within his right.  How he went about it, the timing and the perception though isn't that good though.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #183 on: September 12, 2018, 15:25:18 »
Honest question, because I'm not from Toronto.  What is slowing things down and not getting done?  What is the real reason for the council's dysfunction if it exists at all?

I'm all for efficiency but I would like to know what is inefficient about Toronto that other cities are excluded from the axe?  In Ottawa the Light rail has been delayed twice now and it took years to build a pedestrian bridge.  Was it too many councillors?  Lack of councillors?  Not really, just bad contracts and shoddy city staff work.

Over the years, would not a drug using Mayor with one mess after another supported by his brother be a source of dysfunction?

Apparently this guy , a Ford ally is one such source of problems...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/matt-elliott-on-councillor-giorgio-mammoliti-1.4799032

I agree that the Premier can do this and is well within his right.  How he went about it, the timing and the perception though isn't that good though.

Rob and Doug made Toronto ( the forth largest city in North America, only NYC, LA and Mexico City are bigger ) the laughingstock of the world and a staple on the American late night talk show circuit. Who are the clowns - our city councillors, who held our government together, or the Fords, who brought it to its knees?


Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #184 on: September 12, 2018, 15:30:12 »
2018 Salaries   
Councillor’s salary   $114,306.06
Mayor’s salary   $192,503.43

This is their base salary. Most, if not all, also make thousands more sitting on committees and boards.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mayor's real wage was approx $250,000
Same thing goes for councillor's. More money from committees and appointments.

Not to mention all the perks.

The numbers posted on the website do not indicate a politicians true wage or the true cost of their benefits.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #185 on: September 12, 2018, 15:50:16 »
I wouldn't be surprised if the Mayor's real wage was approx $250,000

CBC News

Mar 23, 2018

Ontario releases its annual Sunshine List of top public sector salaries

Toronto Mayor John Tory earned $188,529.02
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-sunshine-list-2017-public-sector-salary-disclosure-1.4589673

END QUOTE


Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #186 on: September 12, 2018, 15:53:28 »
So they can't even get the info right on the website?

Good thing they have all that high priced help.
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Online Brad Sallows

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #187 on: September 12, 2018, 16:11:27 »
"City of Vancouver" =/= "Metro Vancouver".  See here ("Membership").

City of Vancouver has a mayor and 11 council members.  So yes: about 55,000+people per member.
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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #188 on: September 12, 2018, 16:19:33 »
A Toronto city councillor's pay is about $112,000.

Link I found had erroneous labelled the mayor's salary as Councillor average, thanks for the clarification.

You can keep the trolling to yourself, however.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #189 on: September 12, 2018, 19:49:35 »

Will Premier Ford "trim fat" by reducing Ontario MPPs by half?

Just the ones with a propensity to dis the Ford Nation, apparently.

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #190 on: September 12, 2018, 20:03:13 »
Quote
Federal Disallowance Can’t Be Used To Block Ford’s Use Of Notwithstanding Clause
Voters who are displeased will have to take it out at the ballot box.
By Emma Paling

Ontarians who are upset about Premier Doug Ford's move to overrule a court decision can protest, speak up in the media and put pressure on their MPPs, constitutional law experts say. There are no other tricks left in the book to stop him.

. . .

"Forget that," University of Toronto professor Nelson Wiseman told HuffPost Canada in an interview. "I'm not even sure it's technically possible. You'd have a major constitutional crisis."

Disallowance is what's known as a "spent power." Spent powers are technically on the books, but they're so old they cannot be used. A federal government last used disallowance in 1943.

"It's like thinking that the Governor General can decide she wants to appoint you the next prime minister and dismisses Justin Trudeau," Wiseman said. "The constitution says she can do that, can't she? But would anybody stand for it?"

. . .


Wiseman and Macfarlane also agreed that the judge's decision to declare Ford's law unconstitutional was not sound.

Justice Edward Belobaba ruled on Monday that the province's Better Local Governments Act was unconstitutional because a municipal election was already underway. The law, which moves to slash the size of Toronto's city council nearly in half, violated voters' right to effective representation and candidates' right to freedom of expression, Belobaba said in his decision.

"I thought the judge was off his rocker yesterday," Wiseman said. "I thought Ford was actually accurate when he said every constitutional person he ran this by thought it was perfectly OK."

See full article here:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/federal-disallowance-can-t-be-used-to-block-ford-s-use-of-notwithstanding-clause_a_23524147/?utm_hp_ref=ca-homepage

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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #191 on: September 12, 2018, 20:13:59 »
Just the ones with a propensity to dis the Ford Nation, apparently.

Karma time for City Hall, apparently,
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 22:51:01 by mariomike »

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #192 on: September 12, 2018, 21:43:03 »
So they can't even get the info right on the website?

Good thing they have all that high priced help.

Yes, it is a good thing that they have high priced help.  And they do have their figures right.

The $188k amount as reported in the CBC article is based on the annual reports that the city have on line.  It is the historical amount that the mayor earned in 2017.  (They seem to do their fiscal year reporting in calendar years)  The $192K amount is the salary that Mayor Tory is projected to earn in 2018 (the year is not over yet) The difference is likely due to the automatic salary increase that takes effect on 1 Jan of each year to reflect the change in the CPI for Toronto, which for the past year was 2.1%.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #193 on: September 12, 2018, 22:05:45 »
Public sector salary disclosure 2017 calendar year, aka "The Sunshine List":

Mayor Tory, John

Salary paid: $188,529.02

Taxable benefits $1,408.22

https://www.ontario.ca/page/public-sector-salary-disclosure-2017-all-sectors-and-seconded-employees



« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 22:30:31 by mariomike »

Offline Bluebulldog

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #194 on: September 13, 2018, 08:58:08 »
I read Los Angeles has twice Toronto's population and only 15 councilors. Vancouver has 11.

The biggest complaint in my opinion seems to be that there are too many politicians in Toronto to get anything done in a timely manner.

So personal feelings about Ford aside, is he right?
IS there too many councilors to get anything done?
Will cutting the numbers in half improve the system?

Ford talked about reducing the government, kind of sounds exactly what he's trying to do.

Actually. The LA model ( and indeed other similar cities) works quite well from a representation standpoint.

A councillor is the one that actually attends the meetings where things are tabled and voted on. However, they aren't always the ones dealing with the faces. There are a number of appointees ( staff, who do that, typically called aldermen, etc who represent the populace in a given geographic area, or ward).

Cutting city council isn't a bad thing if it gets mired by the differing agendas, people wishing to be heard etc.....

Pretty sure Ford didn't say that the GTA couldn't restructure so that each councillor was able to appoint / hire and alderman to assist in determining the needs of their constituents either. For that matter, they might not even need to be FT positions.
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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #195 on: September 13, 2018, 09:13:25 »
I'm sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but a petulant vendetta by Ford against a city council for having mocked and 'disrespected' him and his brother for their abysmal behaviour and council attendance. 

It seems to be a growing theme in contemporary politics, and some social circles.

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #196 on: September 13, 2018, 09:38:38 »
I'm sorry, but I just can't see this as anything but a petulant vendetta by Ford against a city council for having mocked and 'disrespected' him and his brother for their abysmal behaviour and council attendance. 

It seems to be a growing theme in contemporary politics, and some social circles.

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Probably is...but I'm glad you think politics was all sunshine and rainbows before now....

Oh, you meant like that? ;D
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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #197 on: September 13, 2018, 10:01:00 »
Probably is...but I'm glad you think politics was all sunshine and rainbows before now....

Oh, you meant like that? ;D
Well, more unicorns and rainbows.... (as in excellent examples are non-existent or fleetingly rare)  :nod:

No, politics has always had a degree of 'mud-wrestling with a pig' to it, but I think messing with Charter of Rights and Constitutional issues, plus trash-talking the judiciary (Canada actually has a pretty respectable one), just to *****-slap some people who hurt your feelings is pretty petty.... even by the low standards expected from Ford.   ::)
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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #198 on: September 13, 2018, 12:49:44 »
Almost every constitutional law expert that's been interviewed on the case has said the judge was completely wrong in his decision, so I'm not sure where the Charter is being messed with. In fact, its pretty telling that the judge had to reach into freedom of expression instead of democratic rights, because democratic rights do not apply to municipal elections.

Offline QV

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #199 on: September 13, 2018, 14:42:55 »
How do you mess with the charter when the action you take is empowered by the charter?