Author Topic: New Ontario Government 2018  (Read 26145 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2018, 14:24:05 »
I don't know too much about the city council dynamic in TO to have an informed opinion on whether this is a good move or not.

I vote in Ward 13. So, I'll offer my ( uninformed ) opinion, for what it is worth to the discussion.

I'm not surprised. But, as a courtesy, it would have been nice for Doug to have informed Toronto voters of his plan before asking us to vote for him.

One more reason I wish the city could go its own way ( amicably ) from the Province of Ontario.

Our city election is on Oct. 22, 2018.

So, imagine if Prime Minister Trudeau announced three months before the upcoming federal election that he decided to cut the House of Commons in half.

Although the population of Toronto has grown a lot since 1998, we had more than 100 politicians back then.

That number fell to 57. Now it is 44. They had just been increased to 47 wards.

Doug is bring it down to 25.

That's one-quarter what we had in 1998, with the same geographic boundary, and smaller population.

The cut will save $110,000 per councillor per year out of an $11 billion-dollar annual budget.

I don't expect Ford Nation to have a lot of love for the city after taking away Rob's mayoral powers, or Doug's defeat by John Tory in the mayoral election.

Speaking of which, Mel Lastman's son changed his mind about running for mayor. But, with just minutes left to register, the city's former chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat is running for mayor.

That makes it a whole new ball game!  :)


Offline Rifleman62

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2018, 14:31:10 »
Quote
So, imagine if Prime Minister Trudeau announced three months before the upcoming federal election that he decided to cut the House of Commons in half.

If he did that, I would support it. Plus the Senate.
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Online Remius

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2018, 14:34:40 »
If he did that, I would support it. Plus the Senate.

it would be more akin to the PM telling Alberta to cut its MLAs by half.


Optio

Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2018, 14:35:53 »
If he did that, I would support it. Plus the Senate.

Maybe I would too. Maybe a lot of people would.

But, would there not be a referendum?

it would be more akin to the PM telling Alberta to cut its MLAs by half.

That's a better example than mine was.

I picked Welland randomly and found that the city has 6 councillors for a city of just over 52,000 people, or one councillor per 8,667 people. Woodstock has 6 for over 38,000 or one per 6,333 people. With 25 councillors in Toronto, each councillor would represent 116,000 residents.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 14:49:05 by mariomike »

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2018, 14:47:47 »
Local government is not recognized under our constitution, so comparing the cuts in Toronto with a Provincial or Federal cut is an apple to oranges comparison.
Premier Ford can  make the cuts, as afforded provincial jurisdiction.

Suggestions to cut Provincial, Federal or Senate seats, or add a new province would all take a change to the constitution.
With the current crop of politicians, does anyone trust another Meech Lake referendum to hold the country together?     :Tin-Foil-Hat:
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2018, 16:47:59 »
I picked Welland randomly and found that the city has 6 councillors for a city of just over 52,000 people, or one councillor per 8,667 people. Woodstock has 6 for over 38,000 or one per 6,333 people. With 25 councillors in Toronto, each councillor would represent 116,000 residents.

Geography plays into the equation as well. Renfrew Country has 1 MP and 1 MPP to represent 102,000 people, but has only 9 people per Sq KM. With the amount of towns covered in the riding, it would be completely impractical to just declare the whole riding as 1 city with only 1 councillor allowed. Meanwhile, Toronto has 4,400 people per Sq KM meaning that each councillor (within the 25 limit) only has a 26 Sq KM ward. With the current system, Toronto has a councillor for roughly every 12.5 Sq KM. That's a whole lot of overhead for very little tangible gain.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2018, 16:51:25 »
Geography plays into the equation as well. Renfrew Country has 1 MP and 1 MPP to represent 102,000 people, but has only 9 people per Sq KM. With the amount of towns covered in the riding, it would be completely impractical to just declare the whole riding as 1 city with only 1 councillor allowed. Meanwhile, Toronto has 4,400 people per Sq KM meaning that each councillor (within the 25 limit) only has a 26 Sq KM ward. With the current system, Toronto has a councillor for roughly every 12.5 Sq KM. That's a whole lot of overhead for very little tangible gain.

So we can build an infantry section with one Sgt and 54 Cpl/Ptes?  Or is there some size at which communication falls apart, and smaller organizational structures are needed?
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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2018, 17:16:02 »
So we can build an infantry section with one Sgt and 54 Cpl/Ptes?  Or is there some size at which communication falls apart, and smaller organizational structures are needed?

Apples and Oranges. I said both geographical and population density need to be covered.

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2018, 17:21:33 »
Interesting and somewhat unexpected move by the Premier.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tory-ford-city-council-statements-1.4763890

I don't know too much about the city council dynamic in TO to have an informed opinion on whether this is a good move or not.

Less government is good.  I'm not so sure about less representation though.

I used to belong to a governing board that had over forty members and we restructured it down to just over twenty. The number of constituents represented wasn't ever the issue. The issue was that with over forty members we were dysfunctional getting wrapped around the axle for lengthy periods of time debating ridiculously small current issues rather than concentrating on the big picture, future looking things. IMHO, forty seven is too unwieldy; smaller board with a good administrative staff that can focus discussions is greatly preferable. That said, the way this was sprung on the city as a whole is less than optimal.

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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2018, 17:24:35 »
Premier Ford can  make the cuts, as afforded provincial jurisdiction .

Funny how days like today remind you of things.

We got our first lesson in provincial jurisdiction when I was 12.

Against the wishes of many local citizens, our village, an official Village, was amalgamated into the City of Toronto, by order of the Province of Ontario.


Offline Thucydides

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2018, 17:39:15 »
As an interesting counterpoint, consider the amount of traffic discussions on the size and numbers of Headquarters, GOFO's etc. generate on other threads, and how the almost universal consensus is we would be far better off streamlining the organization and reducing headcounts. Even the arguments about how many councillors/constituent seem very familiar, how many servicemenber/GOFO do we consider an acceptable ratio?

Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2018, 19:30:34 »
When Doug made his announcement today, former Chief City Planner of Toronto from 2012 to 2017, Jennifer Keesmaat, rushed down to City Hall to register for the mayoral race just minutes before the 2 p.m. deadline.

She Tweeted one word: "Secession."
https://twitter.com/jen_keesmaat/status/1022674165063733249

After four years of peace, CP24 shows City Hall in chaos tonight. Deja vu 2010 - 2014.

In the middle of an election.

The people of Toronto went through a year and a half process to decide their ward boudaries. It was inclusive. There were four years of studies and consultations.

Then this announcement from Queen's Park two hours before registration closes.

Renfrew Country has 1 MP and 1 MPP to represent 102,000 people, but has only 9 people per Sq KM.

We are comparing municipal wards to provincial and federal ridings?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 13:11:37 by mariomike »

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2018, 13:28:30 »
We are comparing municipal wards to provincial and federal ridings?

Considering that's exactly how the Premier is framing his rationale for reducing councillors, its topical. You also missed the remainder of the post, which was more about geographical size of the ridings. Toronto is likely one of the few municipalities that this sort of cut would work on, because of the density of the population.

Offline Altair

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2018, 15:36:01 »
Ottawa has 23 councillors,  with less than half of the population of toronto,  yet ford says he has no plans to change the number of councillors in ottawa.

Very much a settling of scores by a scorned politician.
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2018, 17:56:10 »
Ottawa has 23 councillors,  with less than half of the population of toronto,  yet ford says he has no plans to change the number of councillors in ottawa.

Very much a settling of scores by a scorned politician.

Ottawa has 41,000 per ward councillor.

Toronto will have 109,000 per ward councillor.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/



Offline PuckChaser

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2018, 18:54:51 »
Ottawa has 41,000 per ward councillor.

Toronto will have 109,000 per ward councillor.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/

Did you read my post at all, or just completely miss the point and cherry pick a quote? Ottawa's land area is almost 5 times the size of Toronto. Geography has to play a major role in number of councillors/MPPs/MPs as well. There's dimishing returns when your councillor is responsible for a massive area. You're telling me that Toronto councillors will be hard done by to represent 26 sq KM areas, instead of 12.5 sq KM? Meanwhile, if the City of Ottawa follows the new Toronto model, they go from roughly 100 sq KM wards to 330 sq KM wards.

Also in the "hell must have froze over" category, Doug Ford is taking the lead from the Toronto Star, after this editorial in 2014 stated that Toronto should have 1 councillor per federal/provincial riding: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

They've really flipped since then: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/07/27/doug-ford-spits-in-the-face-of-toronto.html

Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2018, 19:57:54 »
Puckchaser,

I was replying to Altair.  I posted my source.

Here it is again,

QUOTE

The Canadian Press

THE GLOBE AND MAIL

July 26, 2018

APPROXIMATE POPULATION PER COUNCILLOR

Toronto (25 councillors) 109,000

Ottawa (23 councillors)  41,000
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/

END QUOTE

Doug Ford is taking the lead from the Toronto Star, after this editorial in 2014 stated that Toronto should have 1 councillor per federal/provincial riding: https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/19/torontos_dysfunctional_city_hall_needs_reform.html

No Puckchaser. That is not an "editorial".

That is an "Opinion •Commentary".

This is also an "Opinion •Commentary". In the very same Toronto Star. Two days before the link you selected to post,

QUOTE

"Downsizing city council doesn't make sense"
Nov. 17, 2014
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/11/17/downsizing_city_council_doesnt_make_sense.html

END QUOTE

"Opinion •Commentary" are not editorials.

THIS, is the Toronto Star editorial,

QUOTE

Star Editorial Board

Fri., July 27, 2018

Doug Ford spits in the face of Toronto
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2018/07/27/doug-ford-spits-in-the-face-of-toronto.html

END QUOTE






Offline Altair

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2018, 21:42:53 »
Ottawa has 41,000 per ward councillor.

Toronto will have 109,000 per ward councillor.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/toronto/article-ford-upends-toronto-ward-system-ahead-of-fall-municipal-elections/
With the premier of toronto in charge,  I think Quebec is going to be seen as the responsible and stable province regardless of the winner in October.

Also,  as a comparison,  montreal has 65 councillor, and it works out to something around 29-30 thousand per councillor.
Someday I'll care about milpoints.

Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2018, 23:07:39 »
With the premier of toronto in charge,  I think Quebec is going to be seen as the responsible and stable province regardless of the winner in October.

Also,  as a comparison,  montreal has 65 councillor, and it works out to something around 29-30 thousand per councillor.

An Opinion - Commentary. Not an editorial.

QUOTE

Doug Ford will have his revenge on Toronto. We did not vote for him for mayor, we did not — the majority of us — vote for him for premier, and so now he will mess us up. Because he can, and because many of his loudest supporters in other parts of the province like nothing more than to see us get the high hard one, and many more of his loudest supporters think the entire apparatus of government is useless and should be burned to the ground.

London, England has only 25 members for a population of more than eight million people. But that city also has 32 elected borough councils, many with more than 50 or even 70 members, and each of those has its own mayor. He also noted that Los Angeles has only 15 councillors and a mayor, but failed to mention the 97 neighbourhood councils that are part of its government structure. Chicago, about the size of Toronto, has 50 councillors, a mayor, and an elected clerk and treasurer — slightly larger than the body Toronto would have had after this election. New York City, between its city council, its community boards, and its borough presidents, has more than 3,000 politicians running it.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyAaWNyXAZ8J:https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/07/27/fords-move-to-slash-toronto-council-without-consultation-an-undemocratic-move.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

END QUOTE








« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 07:50:52 by mariomike »

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2018, 08:59:57 »
Quote
Editorial
noun
A newspaper article expressing the editor's opinion on a topical issue.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/editorial

False dichotomy:  An editorial is  an opinion piece.


Back to the latest political 'he said - she said'   :salute:

Offline ModlrMike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2018, 10:57:13 »
Wait... the Red Star had an opinion piece critical of a Conservative politician? When did that start?  :facepalm:
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Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2018, 11:47:34 »
Wait... the Red Star had an opinion piece critical of a Conservative politician? When did that start?  :facepalm:

Like it or not, the Toronto Star has the highest circulation of any daily newspaper in Canada.

Higher than the Globe and Mail.

Higher than the National Post and the Toronto Sun combined.




« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 11:51:38 by mariomike »

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2018, 12:53:28 »
Incorrect, my Padiwan learner.  ;D

Top: Globe and Mail.

And just about equal to the other two you named taken together (though neither of them is the next or even the two next most circulated dailies in Toronto. Those honours go to the 24 Hours Toronto and Metro Toronto, which together exceed the Star's readership by 30%.

http://www.cision.ca/trends/canadas-top-20-daily-newspapers/

And, BTW, all proportions kept, the next two top papers (after the G&M and TorStar) beat the hell out of everybody for readership: La Presse and the Journal de Montreal come in at 300% higher circulation that the Globe and Mail (no.1 overall) when you adjust to consider that it addresses itself to only 25% of the population of Canada, as opposed to the G&M addressing itself to the other 75%.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 13:05:23 by Oldgateboatdriver »

Offline mariomike

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2018, 13:15:59 »
Incorrect, my Padiwan learner.  ;D

Top: Globe and Mail.

Thanks, OGBD.  :)

My source was,

Daily Newspaper Circulation Report 2015
https://nmc-mic.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2015-Daily-Newspaper-Circulation-Report-REPORT_FINAL.pdf

Based on 2015 statistics, the Toronto Star is Canada's highest-circulation newspaper on overall weekly circulation. Although it is a close second to The Globe and Mail in daily circulation on weekdays, it overtakes the Globe in weekly circulation with both its Saturday and Sunday editions, especially given that the Globe does not publish Sunday editions.



Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: New Ontario Government 2018
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2018, 14:03:53 »
Like it or not
Sage advice for Torontonians who aren't happy about the election.

Ontario was so tired of the Liberals they aren't even a recognized party at this time. Perhaps if Torontonians were a little more cognizant of the bigger picture they could have leaned in a different direction and possibly save themselves some angst.

Ford isn't just kicking cans down the road he's picking them up and moving them. Maybe it's good maybe it's bad but it's pretty clear Ontario wanted change and that's what he's doing and for good or for ill that's what we're getting.
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