Author Topic: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice  (Read 4170 times)

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Offline lohocard

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NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« on: August 23, 2018, 19:21:03 »
So here’s my dilemma/situation...and before I continue with my story, I have currently served my first year in the regs as an NCM Supply technician.

Academics: I hold a police foundations diploma (yes I qualified for MP, but lost interest in police work altogether), and it came with a bridge program at Athabasca U to complete a degree in 2 years in the study of Criminal Justice. I’m interested in the administration and social science of the degree, not the police side of things.

After having some experience as a supply tech, I really do enjoy the job. I like logistics, and I feel that I want to become a LogO.

So I completed 9 university credits in the program (part-time online), and slowly moving my way to a degree in criminal justice.

Here’s where I need help/advice. I want to complete the degree eventually and become an officer, but would the CF take me as a LogO with a CJ degree? I’m not interested in a business degree, I dropped out of a business diploma 2 years ago because I hated it, didn’t like the math/micro and macroeconomic courses etc.

I have also been granted funding/reimbursements for my part time online learning. I’m aware that for UTPNCM you need to be an NCM that shows leadership and experience. I’m guessing that only completing my first contract (3 years) would not put me in that situation.

I also considered switching to reserves/or releasing after my first contract to finish up my degree and then come back later on to the regs as an officer. This is because my trade is super red and hard to get out of if you’re still in a contract.

Honestly I just needed to type this all out and get any feedback I can get on this. Criticism is welcome, anything will help. I don’t know what to do, but I hate just sitting around thinking about it as my contract keeps rolling. Apologies if for some reason someone had the same situation as me and there’s already a thread...






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Offline runormal

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2018, 20:19:05 »
I also considered switching to reserves/or releasing after my first contract to finish up my degree and then come back later on to the regs as an officer. This is because my trade is super red and hard to get out of if you’re still in a contract.
The road back into the regs from the reserves may not be as smooth /straightforward as you'd like it to be. We recently discussed the feasibility of doing a CT/OT (U) to Log and the Outlook was bleak to say the least. In this thread:

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,12797.1375.html

All that to say, switching to the reserves to do a degree isn't a "bad" option. We'll give you $2k a year for school and a decent part time wage, especially if you come out as a Cpl. A few guys have done it recently and fit in fairly well with no issues. I can't add anything else to the conservation, but it's definitely som ething to consider.

Offline sidemount

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2018, 20:43:28 »
So here’s my dilemma/situation...and before I continue with my story, I have currently served my first year in the regs as an NCM Supply technician.

Academics: I hold a police foundations diploma (yes I qualified for MP, but lost interest in police work altogether), and it came with a bridge program at Athabasca U to complete a degree in 2 years in the study of Criminal Justice. I’m interested in the administration and social science of the degree, not the police side of things.

After having some experience as a supply tech, I really do enjoy the job. I like logistics, and I feel that I want to become a LogO.

So I completed 9 university credits in the program (part-time online), and slowly moving my way to a degree in criminal justice.

Here’s where I need help/advice. I want to complete the degree eventually and become an officer, but would the CF take me as a LogO with a CJ degree? I’m not interested in a business degree, I dropped out of a business diploma 2 years ago because I hated it, didn’t like the math/micro and macroeconomic courses etc.

I have also been granted funding/reimbursements for my part time online learning. I’m aware that for UTPNCM you need to be an NCM that shows leadership and experience. I’m guessing that only completing my first contract (3 years) would not put me in that situation.

I also considered switching to reserves/or releasing after my first contract to finish up my degree and then come back later on to the regs as an officer. This is because my trade is super red and hard to get out of if you’re still in a contract.

Honestly I just needed to type this all out and get any feedback I can get on this. Criticism is welcome, anything will help. I don’t know what to do, but I hate just sitting around thinking about it as my contract keeps rolling. Apologies if for some reason someone had the same situation as me and there’s already a thread...






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Firstly you'd have to be a substantive Cpl before you can apply for UTPNCM. So you'd have some time to show some Leadership qualities.

Second, if you do finish your degree while still an NCM you can apply through the special commissioning plan.
 
It does take some time but the experience you gain as an NCM is very valuable, especially as a supply tech looking to go Log.

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Offline Hungover_cat

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2018, 21:02:33 »
I would just add that while you may be able to get LogO as a direct entry with CJ, the Forces will only pay for a very narrow selection of preferred degrees if you choose to go the UTP route.

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Offline lohocard

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2018, 21:03:04 »
Firstly you'd have to be a substantive Cpl before you can apply for UTPNCM. So you'd have some time to show some Leadership qualities.

Second, if you do finish your degree while still an NCM you can apply through the special commissioning plan.
 
It does take some time but the experience you gain as an NCM is very valuable, especially as a supply tech looking to go Log.

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Yeah, it seems wanting to do anything progression-wise it’s always being a well-developed Cpl - which I’m not saying is wrong by any means - just time consuming when you’re used to hurry up and wait.

I appreciate the feedback. Which commissioning plan are you talking about? Direct entry officer? Am I able to do that after my first contract if I finish my degree?


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Offline lohocard

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2018, 21:04:38 »
I would just add that while you may be able to get LogO as a direct entry with CJ, the Forces will only pay for a very narrow selection of preferred degrees if you choose to go the UTP route.

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I’m guessing that’s because CJ doesn’t really “relate” to the logistics officer job, right?


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Offline Hungover_cat

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2018, 21:08:13 »
Direct entry would imply you releasing from the Forces and re-joining. It is not a plan for commissioning from the ranks.

Many trades and occupations such as LogO aren't very selective degree-wise when you already have the degree under your belt. It's a different story when you are looking to have your education subsidized.

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Offline lohocard

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 21:08:25 »
The road back into the regs from the reserves may not be as smooth /straightforward as you'd like it to be. We recently discussed the feasibility of doing a CT/OT (U) to Log and the Outlook was bleak to say the least. In this thread:

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,12797.1375.html

All that to say, switching to the reserves to do a degree isn't a "bad" option. We'll give you $2k a year for school and a decent part time wage, especially if you come out as a Cpl. A few guys have done it recently and fit in fairly well with no issues. I can't add anything else to the conservation, but it's definitely som ething to consider.
You’re right, and even 85% of Cpl pay part time isn’t too shabby while studying. I have funds put away for emergencies, so I’m not too worried about tuition.

I am worried about what you first stated though, regarding to getting back into the Regs after reserves. I guess it’s all going to depend on the need of logO’s at the time.


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Offline Hungover_cat

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2018, 21:08:34 »
I’m guessing that’s because CJ doesn’t really “relate” to the logistics officer job, right?


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Correct.

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Offline lohocard

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2018, 21:11:12 »
Direct entry would imply you releasing from the Forces and re-joining. It is not a plan for commissioning from the ranks.

Many trades and occupations such as LogO aren't very selective degree-wise when you already have the degree under your belt. It's a different story when you are looking to have your education subsidized.

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That makes sense, I don’t blame them for not paying for courses that don’t relate to the job. I just can’t stand doing a business degree after already trying it, and why not finish what I started, considering I actually find most of the CJ courses interesting, haha.


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Offline Pusser

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2018, 12:11:01 »
Direct entry would imply you releasing from the Forces and re-joining. It is not a plan for commissioning from the ranks.

Many trades and occupations such as LogO aren't very selective degree-wise when you already have the degree under your belt. It's a different story when you are looking to have your education subsidized.

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Not true at all.  There are "preferred" and "acceptable" degrees.  When I became a LogO, most liberal arts degrees were at least "acceptable," but that changed a few years ago, when the Branch decided that they would only accept degrees in related fields (e.g. commerce, business, accounting, etc).  Had I applied at that point, I would never have gotten in.  It is my understanding that this has changed once again and that the list of acceptable degrees has broadened somewhat, but it is by no means true to say that any degree will do.  Furthermore, if you want to advance as a LogO, you had better plan to pursue an MBA or an accounting designation at some point.  Getting beyond Maj/LCdr right now is nigh on impossible without post-graduate work in a related field.
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Offline Hungover_cat

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2018, 12:23:47 »
Not true at all.  There are "preferred" and "acceptable" degrees.  When I became a LogO, most liberal arts degrees were at least "acceptable," but that changed a few years ago, when the Branch decided that they would only accept degrees in related fields (e.g. commerce, business, accounting, etc).  Had I applied at that point, I would never have gotten in.  It is my understanding that this has changed once again and that the list of acceptable degrees has broadened somewhat, but it is by no means true to say that any degree will do.  Furthermore, if you want to advance as a LogO, you had better plan to pursue an MBA or an accounting designation at some point.  Getting beyond Maj/LCdr right now is nigh on impossible without post-graduate work in a related field.
Seems my post lead to confusion. You are absolutely correct - I didn't mean that they would accept a candidate with any degree, just that some occupations have a much greater variety of "acceptable" degrees, and that as far as I know, LogO was one of them. That may or may not have changed.

As for UTP, it wouldn't matter because they will only allow a member to pursue one of the "preferred" degrees, of which I greatly doubt Criminal Justice would fall into for LogO.

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Offline sidemount

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2018, 18:57:10 »
If I get a chance on Monday, I will post the list of preferred and acceptable degress from the MOSID entry standards for Log O. Its a bit different based on entry plans. The will at least remove some confusion.

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Offline lohocard

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2018, 19:03:26 »
I requested an appointment also today to speak with the BPSO to discuss my options further. There’s so many commissioning plans it’s a bit difficult to choose which one fits my career path. I know that I’m not interested in doing UTPNCM. I don’t mind going back to St Jean either to do the officer portion. I’d rather do online learning while working, then apply for Officer when I receive my degree. I’m a bit confused with the difference of SCP and CEOTP as well.


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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2018, 19:07:45 »
I’m a bit confused with the difference of SCP and CEOTP as well.

This may, or may not, help,

Special Commissioning Plan ( SCP )
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=34926.0
4 pages.

Seneca College Pilot Program ( CEOTP )
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=13080.525
23 pages.

Offline sidemount

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2018, 19:08:26 »
I requested an appointment also today to speak with the BPSO to discuss my options further. There’s so many commissioning plans it’s a bit difficult to choose which one fits my career path. I know that I’m not interested in doing UTPNCM. I don’t mind going back to St Jean either to do the officer portion. I’d rather do online learning while working, then apply for Officer when I receive my degree. I’m a bit confused with the difference of SCP and CEOTP as well.


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Thats a great plan. The BPSO will have the answers for you and be able to help develop the best plan for you.



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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2018, 11:57:44 »
So better late than never, here are the degree paths for Log O from DWAN:

ROTP Preferred:
Unconditional acceptance into an undergraduate degree program in:
Accounting
Business Administration
Commerce
Finance
Economics
Logistics
Human Resources Management
Public Administration
Supply Chain Management
Industrial Relations
Food Business Management
Food Sciences
Nutrition/Dietetics
Chemistry
Physics

ROTP Acceptable:

English
French
History
Military and Strategic Studies
Psychology
Political Science
Computer Science
Mathematics
Space Science
Aeronautical Engineering
Chemical Engineering
Civil Engineering
Computer Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Mechanical Engineering

OT/CT/SCP/DEO Preferred:

Accounting
Business Administration
Commerce
Finance
Economics
Logistics
Human Resources Management
Public Administration
Supply Chain Management
Industrial Relations
Food Business Management
Food Sciences
Nutrition/Dietetics
Chemistry
Physics

OT/CT/SCP/DEO Acceptable:

Any Degree

UTPNCM Preferred and acceptable are the same as ROTP.

 

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Offline lohocard

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2018, 15:20:28 »
So better late than never, here are the degree paths for Log O from DWAN:

ROTP Preferred:
Unconditional acceptance into an undergraduate degree program in:
Accounting
Business Administration
Commerce
Finance
Economics
Logistics
Human Resources Management
Public Administration
Supply Chain Management
Industrial Relations
Food Business Management
Food Sciences
Nutrition/Dietetics
Chemistry
Physics

ROTP Acceptable:

English
French
History
Military and Strategic Studies
Psychology
Political Science
Computer Science
Mathematics
Space Science
Aeronautical Engineering
Chemical Engineering
Civil Engineering
Computer Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Mechanical Engineering

OT/CT/SCP/DEO Preferred:

Accounting
Business Administration
Commerce
Finance
Economics
Logistics
Human Resources Management
Public Administration
Supply Chain Management
Industrial Relations
Food Business Management
Food Sciences
Nutrition/Dietetics
Chemistry
Physics

OT/CT/SCP/DEO Acceptable:

Any Degree

UTPNCM Preferred and acceptable are the same as ROTP.

Thanks for the information. I’m looking to change my major to Bachelor of Management, as I think It would give me a better chance in getting commissioned as LOGO. I’ve already completed some core courses which would transfer from my previous degree path, so it shouldn’t be all that bad. Can you or anyone tell me what the letters mean beside the Officer pay scale? I know it coordinates with what commissioning plan you come out of, but which ones specifically?

Someone I work with told me last week that SCP isn’t as competitive as it’s hyped up to be. I haven’t met with the BPSO yet, but I’m still trying to figure out which commissioning plan to pursue (that doesn’t involve physically going to school ie: UPTNCM). I’ve read on the forums that an already trained/experienced member has a better chance of getting commissioned than an untrained one (or at least the process is faster).


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Offline sidemount

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2018, 15:32:50 »
If you are looking at the pay scale on the forces site, pay level A is ROTP, level C is DEO, level D is for UTPNCM and SCP, level E is for CFR

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Offline lohocard

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2018, 18:24:42 »
If you are looking at the pay scale on the forces site, pay level A is ROTP, level C is DEO, level D is for UTPNCM and SCP, level E is for CFR

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Great. And how does CEOTP fit into the scale?


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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2018, 18:28:10 »
Great. And how does CEOTP fit into the scale?


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D as well if you are switching from ncm to officer and I believe B if no prior service

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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2018, 18:41:25 »
Great. And how does CEOTP fit into the scale?



For "CEOTP" in the notes to the pay scale see "OCTP".  It is what the former "similar" commissioning plan was called.  There are two varieties - NFS (no former service, i.e. from civvy street) and "FS (former service, i.e.  entered the commissioning plan from the ranks).
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Offline Neso

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2018, 20:21:19 »
If I can piggy back this topic a little bit - what are the training requirements when an experienced NCM switches to the Officer side of the house? Let's say it's an experienced MCpl, Sgt, or WO for that matter. Are they exempt from anything other than BMOQ?

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2018, 20:30:14 »
If you're a Signaller, you can attempt to PLAR some or all the mods of your BSOC so you can be posted directly to a unit.

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Re: NCM to OFFICER LogO- Need Advice
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2018, 22:51:13 »
If you have PLQ-Land or Army (whatever they call it these days) you also bypass BMOQ-Land

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