Author Topic: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?  (Read 13482 times)

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2018, 03:34:59 »
That part I don't get.  Why jeopardize the nomination over small beer, no matter how embarrassing it might seem?  Maybe he can explain himself; maybe not.  I won't be surprised if Republicans still vote to confirm - they vote to support one of their liars,  just as Democrats once did on behalf of one of theirs.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2018, 08:03:19 »
I can say that I haven't paid much attention to this, as I quite frankly don't care.

I can say, as my phone buzzes every 5 minutes with a lurid update, that it sure makes me appreciate the way our Canadian system works.
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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2018, 09:30:41 »
My take on this situation is that it is pretty much impossible to decern what the objective "truth" is anymore.

The deeper you delve, the more conflicting information you find. Depending on your political beliefs, you can arm yourself with excellent talking points from either side of the issue. But i dont really trust that any of that is actually the full truth.

Like Infanteer, I am past caring what the US body politic does to itself anymore.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2018, 10:34:03 »
If a simple unsupported allegation is taken as fact then the rule of law is no more. There has to be protections in place or else lies are taken as fact.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2018, 11:53:12 »
If a simple unsupported allegation is taken as fact then the rule of law is no more. There has to be protections in place or else lies are taken as fact.

Thanks, you've just destroyed the election platforms of all Walter Mittys and most politicians....
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2018, 12:12:38 »
If a simple unsupported allegation is taken as fact then the rule of law is no more. There has to be protections in place or else lies are taken as fact.

An allegation, given under oath, is evidence, and if credible and believed (even if unsupported) can be accepted as fact by the trier of fact and used to convict. That is the rule of law in both your country and mine. The days when a woman's testimony needed corroboration are gone and good riddance.

. . .
Like Infanteer, I am past caring what the US body politic does to itself anymore.

Like you and Infanteer I frequently ask myself why I do care.

The only thing that I have come up with is that I have spent much time in the States and genuinely care about Americans. In many ways they are like us and I want to see them successful and happy. On top of that they are like a bull in a china shop. You can't ignore a country that is ten times our size and whose entertainment media comes into your home every night.

Trump, Kavanaugh, the whole Supreme Court issue and their Congress are not the genesis of their problem; they're symptoms of a much deeper, divisive issue based on conflicting philosophies that has the potential to spill over into our own society. I truly wish them good luck but am not optimistic that it will resolve itself any time soon.

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2018, 18:46:16 »
Sex-Crimes Prosecutor: Claims From Ford Against Judge Kavanaugh Lack Sufficient Evidence
https://www.wsj.com/articles/sex-crimes-prosecutor-claims-from-ford-against-judge-kavanaugh-lack-sufficient-evidence-1538369619/
Quote
<snip>Rachel Mitchell said in a memo to senators, ‘I do not think that a reasonable prosecutor would bring this case.’
By Natalie Andrews
Oct. 1, 2018 12:53 a.m. ET
WASHINGTON—The sex-crimes prosecutor hired by Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee to question Christine Blasey Ford about her allegations of assault against Brett Kavanaugh told the panel she wouldn’t have prosecuted the case, according to documents viewed by The Wall Street Journal.
More at link
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Offline Xylric

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2018, 19:21:12 »
Having watched both during the proceedings, I'm led to conclude based on body language and other cues that both Kavanaugh and Ford were lying at times. Which makes things quite interesting in my opinion, because it's entirely possible for someone to lie without even realising it due to the fickle nature of memory. I don't doubt that Ford was assaulted in some fashion, but there's too many unanswered questions involved for me to be certain, as she appears to believe, that Kavanaugh was the one responsible. It's a difficult situation to be sure, and the reality seems to me that they were both lying and telling the truth in similar proportion - exactly what I would expect for memories from 20+ years before.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2018, 20:54:58 »
Sex-Crimes Prosecutor: Claims From Ford Against Judge Kavanaugh Lack Sufficient Evidence
https://www.wsj.com/articles/sex-crimes-prosecutor-claims-from-ford-against-judge-kavanaugh-lack-sufficient-evidence-1538369619/ More at link

So the lawyer paid to say “there’s no basis for prosecution,” indeed said “there’s no basis for prosecution?”  Looks like she’ll be getting that paycheck. :nod:

G2G

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2018, 21:18:47 »
Like T6, I fully agree the greater issue here is upholding the principles of the Rule of Law.

Whatever may or may not have happened, there is no way whatsoever to verify these allegations, and the nature and timing of them make it very clear this was a partisan character assassination attack.

Put yourself in the same situation: you are looking for a job or expecting a promotion, when suddenly you are accused.

There is no contemporious police report or complaint sworn out at the time of the alleged incident. There is no forensic evidence. Witnesses either deny the event took place, or cannot remember or offer different stories. Even the alleged victim's story is inconsistent and full of gaps and omissions.

How do you defend yourself?

The baying mob rejects the concept of presumption of innocence. You cannot prove a negative (this is a logical impossibility), and since the statute of limitations is going expired, eyewitness testimony is not, and cannot be considered reliable, but the call is out to fire you/prevent you from getting the job/denying your promotion.

And in the real world, there are plenty of people out there who are jealous and covet your job or promotion, or envious and wish to drag you down, or unhinged and do such things for whatever sick pleasure they draw from it. I doubt anyone here would like to live in a society with no filters or protections against such acts.

The end result is going to be the further erosion of the productive, high trust society we live in today. I doubt we want to see what comes after that.....
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2018, 22:57:11 »
So the lawyer paid to say “there’s no basis for prosecution,” indeed said “there’s no basis for prosecution?”  Looks like she’ll be getting that paycheck. :nod:

G2G
Just like the democrat minion passing envelopes to Ford's lawyers. Of course, it must be unbelievable because they're Republican, but so far in all of this from day one, the democrats have been proven as the unscrupulous, lying cheats. I'll not pretend to take the WSJ at face value, but it is, supposedly, one of those sources even the left is comfortable with.

Now, unless you are prepared to say that justices and judges are incapable of separating the law from party loyalty, your vieled accusation against the prosecutors learned opinion being biased is just biased in its own right. And if that's truly your belief, why are you even interested in what is involved in picking a judge. After all, they will be whatever their purchaser wishes. Right?

What a laugh.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2018, 23:12:06 »
>it's entirely possible for someone to lie without even realising it due to the fickle nature of memory

If Ford and Kavanaugh each believed what they said to be true and made false statements without realizing it, then they might be mistaken, but not liars.
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Offline Xylric

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2018, 01:02:03 »
>it's entirely possible for someone to lie without even realising it due to the fickle nature of memory

If Ford and Kavanaugh each believed what they said to be true and made false statements without realizing it, then they might be mistaken, but not liars.

True, as what I mean is that there's a threshold at which an honest mistake becomes a lie, and it falls to the intent of the statement to determine the difference. There's a concept I like to use in fiction which I refer to as a "truthful lie" - a statement which while objectively true is stated in such a way to lead the listener to believe an assumed falsity as fact. Likewise, there's the reverse - a statement which, while demonstrably false, leads the listener to accept an assumed fact as accurate. It seems very much to me that both types are at play, which makes it extremely difficult for an outside observer unfamiliar with the precise details to come to any sort of reliable and useful conclusion.

Simply put, I don't believe either of them have a genuine intent to deceive, which is what would make them liars, but I do believe that neither of them have been ideally truthful - which is something which should be plainly obvious, because deception is among one of the first skills humans pick up, as I've never encountered a two year old that *didn't* voraciously claim innocence over missing cookies.

No matter the outcome of these events, I simply think that if Kavanaugh isn't confirmed, the only thing that will happen is that in the eyes of a shocking proportion of the country, someone worse will get the next nomination. So, assuming worst case thinking on multiple fronts for a moment, along with assuming that is guilty of the things he is accused of doing, there comes a question to my mind - is it a reasonable course of action to appoint a sexual predator to the Supreme Court of the United States if the alternative is the possible cessation of any sort of bipartisan cooperation between the Left and Right?

Obviously, my thinking is much less severe in the long run. The only thing at all remarkable about the accusations against a judge being appointed to the highest court in the country he serves in is how unremarkable they are from a global standpoint. I can think of a few dozen examples in history who are far, far worse. No one's perfect, obviously, and I would truthfully say that even if he is guilty, it's more than possible for people to become better than they were. Denying him the nomination is reasonable, but destroying his life is not.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2018, 05:41:54 »
Quote
women who come forward with complaints of sexual assault and harassment must be supported and believed.
-Justin Trudeau

I can very much see us facing a similar situation as this approaching our next election. Sexual assault allegations are politically weaponized.

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2018, 08:08:31 »
-Justin Trudeau

I can very much see us facing a similar situation as this approaching our next election. Sexual assault allegations are politically weaponized.

"women who come forward with complaints of sexual assault and harassment must be supported and believed. "

For reference to that discussion in Canadian Politics,

Prime minister apologizes to reporter but doesn't remember why?
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=128395.50
3 pages.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2018, 10:56:41 »
>it's entirely possible for someone to lie without even realising it due to the fickle nature of memory

If Ford and Kavanaugh each believed what they said to be true and made false statements without realizing it, then they might be mistaken, but not liars.

It would appear that her fear of flying was "woke" upon being requested to come for a interview, seems it wasn't triggered by her other adventures flying here and there.

Offline Strike

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2018, 11:06:42 »
It would appear that her fear of flying was "woke" upon being requested to come for a interview, seems it wasn't triggered by her other adventures flying here and there.

Maybe she takes meds when she flies?

I'm scared of heights, but I flew helicopters for a number of years, sometimes with the doors off.

Fear is an irrational thing and makes no sense to those people who don't share it.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2018, 11:34:26 »
It would appear that her fear of flying was "woke" upon being requested to come for a interview, seems it wasn't triggered by her other adventures flying here and there.

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2018, 12:42:35 »
Quote
women who come forward with complaints of sexual assault and harassment must be supported and believed.
-Justin Trudeau

This really cuts to the heart of why the weaponized #metoo is such a terrible thing. Women who come forward must be believed, unless the accused is on "your" side. Real and well documented cases of real abuse are ignored, because they might hurt "your" side, while even vague and unsubstantiated accusations are hurled at the "other" side.

So if you are a real victim of abuse, what happens? Do you attempt to lodge a complaint anyway, knowing that one side will jump aboard and expand it like a balloon, while the other side will dismiss it as being a partisan attack? For the accused, how can they possibly proceed in a situation where all the protections of the Rule of Law have been abandoned?

And the situational nature of this goes beyond sexual abuse, what about domestic abuse or "honour killings"? Similarly FGM is "off the table" for discussion. You can probably think of other issues which are no longer spoken of, and people who try are shouted down, "disqualified" or "deplatformed".

And if rational discussion os no longer permitted (or even punished-look at "compelled speech" or how "Human Rights" tribunals operate), it dies not mean these issues go away, only that they now fester below the surface, ready to explode at an unexpected instant and probably in ways that the vast majority of people (regardless of their positions) will not approve of.

So the only way to get this under control before it destroys our high productivity, High Trust society is to insist that the same rules and same protections apply to everyone (the Rule of Law). Ignore "whataboutism", focus on the known facts and what can be verified. If you are unfortunately a victim, you MUST swear out a complaint right away and have forensic evidence gathered: "he said/she said" is no way to resolve an issue.

If we as a people collectively insist upon this standard of behaviour, and apply it to every case, regardless of if it is Justin Trudeau or Justin Smith, then we have a chance of salvaging something out of this mess.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Strike

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2018, 13:46:28 »
If you are unfortunately a victim, you MUST swear out a complaint right away and have forensic evidence gathered: "he said/she said" is no way to resolve an issue.


That looks at the whole situation pretty simplistically, ignoring the power play that usually drives an assault.  I mean, you may as well just tell people to stop assaulting others and then everything will be alright.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #46 on: October 02, 2018, 15:13:37 »
-Justin Trudeau

I can very much see us facing a similar situation as this approaching our next election. Sexual assault allegations are politically weaponized.

It's already been put away in Canada, so far as I can tell. After Trudeau's own #metoo moment this year, the precedent appears to have been set.

Deny it, shrug your shoulders and say you remember it differently, then walk away. No consideration to the supposed victim and no adverse press coverage from the MSM.

The grit's fiasco, in the handling of this, has made a mockery of Canada's #metoo movement and any kind of compassion for the victims has been diminished by the government's handling of Trudeau's alleged Kootney groping episode.

Will it stop people from trying?

Nope.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2018, 06:20:28 »
Maybe she takes meds when she flies?

I'm scared of heights, but I flew helicopters for a number of years, sometimes with the doors off.

Fear is an irrational thing and makes no sense to those people who don't share it.

Knowing you're scared of heights but fly  helicopters - if a colonel was in line to be promoted and you went to the military police   merit boards and accused him of sexually assaulting you 30 years ago, and knowing his promotion was a time sensitive issue, and you were asked to fly somewhere to discuss it and refused because you're "scared of heights" do you think people might have just cause of suspicion? Or is fear just irrational and the circumstances don't matter?
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Offline Strike

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Re: Kavanaugh - Is corroboration for sexual assault required?
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2018, 09:00:23 »
Knowing you're scared of heights but fly  helicopters - if a colonel was in line to be promoted and you went to the military police   merit boards and accused him of sexually assaulting you 30 years ago, and knowing his promotion was a time sensitive issue, and you were asked to fly somewhere to discuss it and refused because you're "scared of heights" do you think people might have just cause of suspicion? Or is fear just irrational and the circumstances don't matter?

She didn't refuse (obviously) but asked if there was any way the interviews could have been conducted at her home so she could "avoid" flying. That's quite a big distinction - refusing vs avoiding.
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