Author Topic: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18  (Read 19332 times)

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Offline cld617

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2018, 22:55:38 »
Hopefully not, the message already gives CO's the authority to order members to shave of "unsuccessful attempts".  That statement should be suitably broad to even make certain CoC happy :-/

Yet several locations have already told their people to wait out, continue shaving until further direction can be given on how they'll enforce this policy.

 :facepalm:

Offline Old EO Tech

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2018, 00:45:48 »
Yet several locations have already told their people to wait out, continue shaving until further direction can be given on how they'll enforce this policy.

 :facepalm:

Yes that is pretty dumb, what is there to clarify.  Well I can say at least the Comd 3 Div sent out an email today saying there will be no further direction on this, the CANFORGEN is clear and gives CO's sufficient authority.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2018, 18:40:34 »
Yes that is pretty dumb, what is there to clarify.  Well I can say at least the Comd 3 Div sent out an email today saying there will be no further direction on this, the CANFORGEN is clear and gives CO's sufficient authority.

To be fair the policy came with no warning, so there was no time to prepare specific direction at the unit level...  :facepalm::dunno:

Offline Old EO Tech

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2018, 18:44:55 »
To be fair the policy came with no warning, so there was no time to prepare specific direction at the unit level...  :facepalm::dunno:

That is not the case were I am, everyone knew this was coming, to the point that the Comd 1CMBG authorized beards two weeks ago ahead of the CFG, and then repelled that action after consulting with his boss :-/   But it was well known across the CA from speaking with my peers.

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2018, 18:45:55 »
To be fair the policy came with no warning, so there was no time to prepare specific direction at the unit level...  :facepalm::dunno:

Has your unit been living with their head in the sand? This has been rumoured for months.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2018, 18:53:07 »
I think that Sgt Gervais has done an excellent job of modeling the correct way to wear a beard in DEU :)

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2018, 19:20:39 »
Has your unit been living with their head in the sand? This has been rumoured for months.

....sorry, forgot the /sarcasm bit.

This has been far more than just RUMINT for months, and pretty sure the actual details were kicked around the dress committee and chief network since the start of the summer, so someone claiming now that it needs time for a unit policy is a micromanaging tool.  At most, would have expected ships (or other units with existing shaving requirements) to simply remind folks those policies still apply ahead of time, knowing this was coming down the pipes. 

Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2018, 19:37:03 »
Tracking now.

Absolutely. The L1s knew about this months ago, and a few weeks ago the Armed Forces Council was dominated by J1 issues, instead of J3 issues.

Offline sidemount

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2018, 19:49:18 »
So if someone OTs, does that mean they have to shave off their beard since they are not OFP in their new trade?
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2018, 19:55:04 »
So if someone OTs, does that mean they have to shave off their beard since they are not OFP in their new trade?

Seems so. Their OFP is now that of the new trade, not their old one.

Offline sidemount

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2018, 20:10:29 »
Seems so. Their OFP is now that of the new trade, not their old one.
That's what I was going with but I have been asked the question a few times today.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2018, 21:42:30 »
Absolutely. The L1s knew about this months ago, and a few weeks ago the Armed Forces Council was dominated by J1 issues, instead of J3 issues.

AFC deals more with the '1 side than you'd think - in fact, I'd be hard-pressed to find much of a '3 flavour to its deliberations.

AFC exists to advise the CDS on advice with regards to issues related to the administration, management and employment of the CAF, including Force Development, Force Generation and Force Employment, as well as Force Posture and Readiness.

Most of those issues have a very heavy '1 slant; capability discussions are at Defence Capability Board; resources are at Programme Management Board and the Integrated Resource Management Committee; and '3 discussions would generally occur at the CDS Ops meeting.

(Just don't get confused about whether you're attending DAC, CFDAC or CAFDAC, three similar sounding meetings with three very different mandates: Audit, Decorations and Discipline, respectively...)
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Offline ballz

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2018, 23:17:42 »
That's what I was going with but I have been asked the question a few times today.

I'm curious to see a black and white definition of what "DP1" is in policy?
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Offline Old EO Tech

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2018, 00:26:01 »
I'm curious to see a black and white definition of what "DP1" is in policy?

Well OFP is well defined by MPC for each MOSID, so that should not be in question, though the question about what happens if you change trades is something that needs clarification.

Offline ballz

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2018, 00:35:17 »
Well OFP is well defined by MPC for each MOSID, so that should not be in question, though the question about what happens if you change trades is something that needs clarification.

That's right, but it says "UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST" so what is "development period one?"

I have seen it referred to in a variety of ways and often, in career manager briefings, more so along a spectrum than with a hard and fast point where one goes from DP1 to DP2.
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Offline Old EO Tech

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2018, 00:37:50 »
That's right, but it says "UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST" so what is "development period one?"

I have seen it referred to in a variety of ways and often, in career manager briefings, more so along a spectrum than with a hard and fast point where one goes from DP1 to DP2.

Well I would say logically....that you are in DP1 until the day you qualify DP2, which for most trades is a formal course..  But yes I can see room for interpretation, is this meant to say the end of DP1.0 or the entire DP1 period?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 00:43:37 by Old EO Tech »

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2018, 02:38:44 »
The way I read it is if you attained DP1/OFP once, you can wear a beard therefore OT would be allowed to wear it.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2018, 04:03:07 »
Maintaining a 2cm length seems more of a pain in the *** than shaving every day.   Seems like picking a random religion (like one of my soldiers did) is the way to go for a fluffy face.


And unless soldiers are deployed with readily access to full cbrn protective equipment AND medical counter measures (not just a gas mask and a PowerPoint brief ) the OMG CBRN THREAT argument against beards is silly.
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2018, 09:04:03 »
Maintaining a 2cm length seems more of a pain in the *** than shaving every day.   Seems like picking a random religion (like one of my soldiers did) is the way to go for a fluffy face.


And unless soldiers are deployed with readily access to full cbrn protective equipment AND medical counter measures (not just a gas mask and a PowerPoint brief ) the OMG CBRN THREAT argument against beards is silly.

The 2cm in bulk thing is a little silly, but I think it's just because they don't want everyone looking like Viking-faced, Spartan helmet tattoo wearing, Pipehitters Union hat sporting, Delta Force wannabes.

But, it's easily manageable.

Agreed on the CBRN comment though. Did a couple tours where CBRN kit and training was required, but your supporting UMS didn't have the countermeasures  ::)

That said, even dudes with huge beards (think Sikhs) have told me that they Vaseline the crap out of their beard and they get a perfect seal with the mask on.

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Offline dangerboy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2018, 09:14:31 »

That said, even dudes with huge beards (think Sikhs) have told me that they Vaseline the crap out of their beard and they get a perfect seal with the mask on.

They probably get a good enough seal for the gas hut where the particles are fairly big, there are a lot of nasty agents out there that are a lot smaller particle size than CS gas. Just something to consider.
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Offline NFLD Sapper

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2018, 10:59:52 »
That's right, but it says "UPON ATTAINMENT OF THEIR OPERATIONALLY FUNCTIONAL POINT (OFP) OR HAVING COMPLETED DEVELOPMENTAL PERIOD ONE, WHICHEVER COMES LAST" so what is "development period one?"

I have seen it referred to in a variety of ways and often, in career manager briefings, more so along a spectrum than with a hard and fast point where one goes from DP1 to DP2.


 Programmes and Qualifications - Non-Commissioned Members  and  Programmes and qualifications - Officers may give some guidance.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2018, 13:19:13 »
< snip > Vaseline the crap out of their beard and they get a perfect seal with the mask on.

< snip > there are a lot of nasty agents out there that are a lot smaller particle size than CS gas.

For the N95, men must be clean-shaven where the respirator seals to the face.

Offline dangerboy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2018, 14:08:52 »
For the N95, men must be clean-shaven where the respirator seals to the face.

What is a N95? I have never heard of it, who in the CAF uses it?
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Offline mariomike

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2018, 14:26:37 »
What is a N95?

"N" means Not resistant to oil. 

95 is the percentage of particles 0.3 μm or larger in diameter that the respirator is certified to block.

, who in the CAF uses it?

I'm a former MSE Op. We were not issued it. Perhaps some other trades are?
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=621&ei=AXSuW9igD-XjjwTJ9Z-IBw&q=%22canadian+forces%22+%22N95%22&oq=%22canadian+forces%22+%22N95%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...33847.37703.0.38980.2.2.0.0.0.0.474.599.0j1j4-1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.124...33i160k1.0.zTXaQegScUE

eg:

QUOTE

Royal Canadian Air Force
A-GA-135-001/AA-001 Chapter 8 Post-Occurrence Activities
Annex A – Personal Protective Equipment
1. The following PPE shall be available:
e. Disposable Industrial Dust Mask (referred to as N95 mask). When this light, comfortable industrial dust mask is properly fitted to the face it allows very little unfiltered air to be inhaled. It provides adequate protection from particulate hazards such as composite fibres, lead oxide dust, depleted uranium dust and asbestos. The N95 mask requires a formal biennial fitting which can be arranged through Base Fire Halls or their equivalents. Instructions on use will be provided at the time of fitment.
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/flight-safety/article-template-flight-safety.page?doc=a-ga-135-001-aa-001-chapter-8-post-occurrence-activities/hnfpma84#AnnexA

END QUOTE






« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 15:24:10 by mariomike »

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2018, 15:34:05 »
What is a N95? I have never heard of it, who in the CAF uses it?

I'd say PMed Techs for the most part.  Maybe WFE Techs too?
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