Author Topic: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18  (Read 21714 times)

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Offline QV

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2018, 16:25:35 »
So, as I sit here stroking my graying, mandatory post-retirement beard in contemplation, I'm left wondering "what is a beard?".  Damn near everything else in the military has an official definition, but other than the drawing of what should be the limits of a beard in dress instructions there are no other definitions.  When does being "unshaven" become a beard?  I have my idea of the delineation, but, like Potter Stewart in Jacobellis v. Ohio, it is very much "I know it when I see it".  "Scruffy" is not a beard; it is an attitude that does not project the vision of discipline expected in a military force.  Stubble is not a beard; it is a fashion choice oft associated with pastel suits, sports cars and Miami nightlife, not to mention Italian (or other Mediterranean European) gigolos on beaches in banana hammocks.

Yes, I may be a dinosaur in the minds of those who think they should be able to do as they please as long as they think "it doesn't affect their job".  However, I expect a certain level of consistency in dress and deportment of members of the CAF.  I have no problems with any and all in uniform growing a beard (if they have the hormonal fortitude to do so), I once had a good start on full facial hair (I already had the pornstar 'stache) while working with 3VP's pioneer platoon about 4 decades ago.  And I also remember similar angst (though far from the horror portrayed here) in the 1970s when the creeping length of sideburns sent RSMs into spasm.  The CANFORGEN was poorly written; what I assume was to be a change to dress instruction to no longer limit beards to Navy types and infantry pioneers (if such an animal still exists) as long as operational requirements (and that being the "only" restriction) were met, instead now seems to be an accepted policy of soldiers can do whatever the frig they want with regards facial hair.

The view on this is definitely going to be varied.  I suppose you could you look at this with similar discontent as those not entirely thrilled with the waxed handle bar moustache standard which was popular with soldiers in the 19th century through to WWI (according to Wikipedia) and still sported to this day by some.     

Offline runormal

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #151 on: October 15, 2018, 17:54:53 »
I'm confused at where people are reading that the lower neck and cheekbones have to be clean shaven every day?

4.B. says neatly trimmed, not clean shaven. That means no hipster neck-beards, but does not mean you have to have it clean shaven every day.

I guess, I assumed that neatly trimmed meant that the beard itself would be neatly trimmed/styled. In my opinion, this would require one to keep the cheeks/cheeks shaven. Otherwise, it wouldn't look neat.


Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #152 on: October 15, 2018, 23:25:51 »
They weren't before the CANFORGEN. Why would they be now?

One standard to hold everyone to.
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #153 on: October 16, 2018, 08:09:15 »
One standard to hold everyone to.

Before the CANFORGEN, they were not held at the same standard due to religion.  Don't see why that would change.

Should the indigenous males allowed to have long hair get it cut now too??
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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #154 on: October 16, 2018, 08:21:52 »
Before the CANFORGEN, they were not held at the same standard due to religion.  Don't see why that would change.

Should the indigenous males allowed to have long hair get it cut now too??
No, but everyone else should be allowed to have it if they want. It clearly doesn't have any negative impacts operationally or with discipline, or no one would be allowed to have long hair.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #155 on: October 16, 2018, 08:22:08 »
Before the CANFORGEN, they were not held at the same standard due to religion.  Don't see why that would change.

Should the indigenous males allowed to have long hair get it cut now too??

I was thinking the opposite. I'm not suggesting people who grow beards for religious reasons cut their beards in accordance with the dress regs rather people who want to grow a beard can do so in the same manner as someone who claims growing a (non-trimmed) beard brings them closer to Jesus or Xenu (or in my case the God-Emperor of mankind).

"Should indigenous males cut their hair?"  Nope. Why not just let all guys grow long hair? I hear it might improve recruiting.


Serious question, if a biological woman with long hair identifies as a male does he have to cut his hair according to male dress regs?
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Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #156 on: October 16, 2018, 08:34:50 »
Serious question, if a biological woman with long hair identifies as a male does he have to cut his hair according to male dress regs?

Yes.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #157 on: October 16, 2018, 08:49:39 »
Fairs fair.

 :nod:
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Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #158 on: October 16, 2018, 09:01:05 »
Fairs fair.

 :nod:

Ask straight forward questions: get straightforward answers!  :cowboy:
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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #159 on: October 16, 2018, 09:01:32 »
Serious question, if a biological woman with long hair identifies as a male does he have to cut his hair according to male dress regs?

What if that biological woman identifies as non-binary? Our grooming standards (written in the 80s) don't cover that.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #160 on: October 16, 2018, 09:05:22 »
"Should indigenous males cut their hair?"  Nope. Why not just let all guys grow long hair? I hear it might improve recruiting.

I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional and wore his uniform with pride.  His weapon was clean, his kit was clean, and his military bearing was spot on.  He had one of the best formed berets on I've seen in years and he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

The ops staff, briefers, etc we worked included females with nose piercings, Officers with long hair and facial hair.  They all knew their shyte and I was impressed with their collective professionalism. 

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...
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Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #161 on: October 16, 2018, 09:23:37 »
What if that biological woman identifies as non-binary? Our grooming standards (written in the 80s) don't cover that.

Female standards.
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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #162 on: October 16, 2018, 09:25:42 »
Female standards.

Because they're more broad in hair length and jewelry requirement?

Offline Lumber

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #163 on: October 16, 2018, 09:31:41 »
Because they're more broad in hair length and jewelry requirement?

No, because there is no option for "non-binary" in any official capacity within the CAF, and as this person continues to identify as biologically female, then we would apply those standards to her. If she wanted to follow the male standards, then she would have to self identify as a male, and accept everything that goes with it. If she wants a third option, well tfb (right now).

But yea, also, it would be a lot easier to express herself as non-binary under the female standards than the male standards.
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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #164 on: October 16, 2018, 09:55:33 »
There's the problem. How does "Transphobic CAF rules force non-binary person to dress as a woman" look for a CBC headline?

We've dug ourselves into a hole where one person's freedom of expression/religion is more important than another's.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #165 on: October 16, 2018, 09:56:39 »
I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional and wore his uniform with pride.  His weapon was clean, his kit was clean, and his military bearing was spot on.  He had one of the best formed berets on I've seen in years and he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

The ops staff, briefers, etc we worked included females with nose piercings, Officers with long hair and facial hair.  They all knew their shyte and I was impressed with their collective professionalism. 

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

Well, they can claim all of that is consistent with their Viking tradition and culture   ;)

I am interested to see what HAIRFORGEN will spell out, and the inevitable extra restrictions placed on it by local authorities based on what we're already seeing from BEARDFORGEN.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #166 on: October 16, 2018, 12:29:11 »
So a female soldier could effectively grow a beard, shave their head and wear a deu skirt.
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Offline cld617

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #167 on: October 16, 2018, 12:36:50 »
I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

New policy, much achieve incentive levels on the FORCE test to be allowed to follow new policies in BEARD/HAIRFORGEN

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #168 on: October 16, 2018, 13:10:42 »
I did an Ex in Norway earlier this year. 

The guard manning the entrance to the base had a ponytail down his back, a goatee, maybe an earring in too.  He was also very sharp, professional and wore his uniform with pride.  His weapon was clean, his kit was clean, and his military bearing was spot on.  He had one of the best formed berets on I've seen in years and he looked like he could sleep-walk thru our FORCE test.

The ops staff, briefers, etc we worked included females with nose piercings, Officers with long hair and facial hair.  They all knew their shyte and I was impressed with their collective professionalism. 

I think they're focusing on the right things over there...

Well, they can claim all of that is consistent with their Viking tradition and culture   ;)


No. it is consistent with the treatment of conscripts in the military service of a liberal, progressive Western European country.  Many will assume that because one is a conscript (subject to mandatory military service) that they don't want to be in uniform or that they don't care about good soldiering.  My limited experience decades ago in defending the West from the Commie hordes was that most of the conscripts I came into contact with were good soldiers.  In the Norgies case, while all citizens (male and female) between the ages of 19 to 44 are subject, they are selective in whom they take.  Of the more than 60,000 who are eligible in a class group (and must go thru the first selection, in essence filling out a form) around 15% eventually report for military training (with a reported 84% of that number saying they would have volunteered if it was an option).  When nearly half of your full-time military changes each 12 to 16 months, it is fair to say the military service model is not geared to "career" soldiers but to civilians (or citizen soldiers) who look at their time in the Forsvaret as an interruption to their lives (or more likely as a brief, rewarding life experience).  Making that interlude as convenient as possible is (and was with other NATO conscript countries even 20, 30 or more years ago) a common policy.  As much as we may say that members of the CF are "citizen soldiers", the recruitment and retention model is focused on career soldiers.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 13:14:07 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #169 on: October 16, 2018, 14:13:12 »
So a female soldier could effectively grow a beard, shave their head and wear a deu skirt.

I was always under the impression that females couldn't shave their heads.
:dunno:

That being said, I guess if one wanted (and was able) to, she could. 
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #170 on: October 16, 2018, 14:23:17 »
Well, they can claim all of that is consistent with their Viking tradition and culture   ;)



No. it is consistent with the treatment of conscripts in the military service of a liberal, progressive Western European country.  Many will assume that because one is a conscript (subject to mandatory military service) that they don't want to be in uniform or that they don't care about good soldiering.  My limited experience decades ago in defending the West from the Commie hordes was that most of the conscripts I came into contact with were good soldiers.  In the Norgies case, while all citizens (male and female) between the ages of 19 to 44 are subject, they are selective in whom they take.  Of the more than 60,000 who are eligible in a class group (and must go thru the first selection, in essence filling out a form) around 15% eventually report for military training (with a reported 84% of that number saying they would have volunteered if it was an option).  When nearly half of your full-time military changes each 12 to 16 months, it is fair to say the military service model is not geared to "career" soldiers but to civilians (or citizen soldiers) who look at their time in the Forsvaret as an interruption to their lives (or more likely as a brief, rewarding life experience).  Making that interlude as convenient as possible is (and was with other NATO conscript countries even 20, 30 or more years ago) a common policy.  As much as we may say that members of the CF are "citizen soldiers", the recruitment and retention model is focused on career soldiers.

They also have a Union, like some other Continental, conscripted, armies.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #171 on: October 16, 2018, 14:27:02 »
I was always under the impression that females couldn't shave their heads.
:dunno:

That being said, I guess if one wanted (and was able) to, she could.

Maybe not down to the skin with a razor (may have started that way?) but I've worked with at least one who had a 0 or 1 guard all over and maintained it for at least a year.  She was posted out so I'm not sure if she still rocks it shaved but it wouldn't surprise me.
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Offline dangerboy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2018, 14:42:09 »
I was always under the impression that females couldn't shave their heads.
:dunno:

That being said, I guess if one wanted (and was able) to, she could.

All the dress manual says is " Shaving of all of the hair on the head is permitted." As it does not specifically state that it is for a specific gender then it means everyone can shave their head if they wish.
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #173 on: October 16, 2018, 15:12:48 »
All the dress manual says is " Shaving of all of the hair on the head is permitted." As it does not specifically state that it is for a specific gender then it means everyone can shave their head if they wish.

Well. There you go.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: CAF Beard policy-CANFORGEN 158/18
« Reply #174 on: October 16, 2018, 17:57:56 »
An example of a gender neutral approach :)
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