Poll

Is it Stolen Valour

Yes
3 (12%)
No
22 (88%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Author Topic: Is this Stolen Valour  (Read 7007 times)

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Offline toonietuesday

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Is this Stolen Valour
« on: December 06, 2018, 17:50:07 »
Hello everyone.

I walked past this the other day and it confused me, and after not really getting an answer from my usual sources I'd like to get your opinion.

Background: the setting is an RCAF pilot training establishment. a course of student pilots made a patch for themselves with "AIRBORNE" scroll across it, and they spam it with posters around the school depicting themselves getting a parachute famil. one of the students on this course is an OT Capt who has his red wings. the rest have never smelled the air around the jump school.

Question: is this considered Stolen Valour?

Edit:  Removed one picture that had personnel photos and names due to PERSEC.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 18:28:38 by garb811 »

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 18:31:25 »
Hello everyone.

I walked past this the other day and it confused me, and after not really getting an answer from my usual sources I'd like to get your opinion.

Background: the setting is an RCAF pilot training establishment. a course of student pilots made a patch for themselves with "AIRBORNE" scroll across it, and they spam it with posters around the school depicting themselves getting a parachute famil. one of the students on this course is an OT Capt who has his red wings. the rest have never smelled the air around the jump school.

Question: is this considered Stolen Valour?

Merely envy, in very bad taste, I would say:

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Loachman

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 18:35:22 »
Agreed.

If the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) were to find out about this, I doubt that they would be amused.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 18:43:20 »
Are they poking fun at themselves?

It’s a bad patch, I would have used a seagull (finding Nemo gull) instead of a falcon and changed the wording to “Barely Airborne” across the top.  That way it wouldn’t be taken seriously.




Offline Brihard

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 21:30:06 »
They need five parachute descents for jump wings. That’s a very bad record for a pilot to have.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline medicineman

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 22:57:39 »
Are they poking fun at themselves?

It’s a bad patch, I would have used a seagull (finding Nemo gull) instead of a falcon and changed the wording to “Barely Airborne” across the top.  That way it wouldn’t be taken seriously.





They're RCAF - the patch should read "HAIRBORNE".

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Offline Strike

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 09:08:15 »
They need five parachute descents for jump wings. That’s a very bad record for a pilot to have.

 :rofl:

I think it may be a play on words, especially if any of them have come close to pulling the handles at any point in time.

Edited to add: And "Falcon" in French, especially over the radio, could easily be mistaken for another word, which makes me think there's an inside joke going on that includes some of the students.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 09:52:20 »
Just don't say "seal" in French if you're in polite company.
This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 17:05:56 »
I don’t really get it but I’m sure they didn’t mean to insult anyone. Stolen valour? I don’t think a bunch of pilots are into pretending they are in the army... get over yourselves

Offline fake penguin

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 17:31:05 »
Downhiller229 why does it bother you so much that toonietuesday asked if it is stolen valour?
civilian

Offline Brihard

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 20:04:24 »
Downhiller229 why does it bother you so much that toonietuesday asked if it is stolen valour?

From the guy who’s not even a real penguin... :D
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline TrapperN

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2018, 03:58:15 »
Stolen Valor is someone who has never served pretending they have. As for those guys. Just want to look better than they are. We are the backbone of the military. Now you know why they call us grunts. LOL

Offline X Royal

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2018, 21:29:14 »
Stolen Valor is someone who has never served pretending they have.
That's complete BS.
There have been many cases of those who have served adding medals or qualification badges they have never earned. That is stolen valour.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2018, 21:49:35 »
That's complete BS.
There have been many cases of those who have served adding medals or qualification badges they have never earned. That is stolen valour.

As well as a guy we discovered who was claiming that he was a speshulforcesnightknifefightingninjasniper exchanging cold steel 'toe to toe with the foe', when he was actually commanding a desk buried in the centre of KAF :)

"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2018, 22:16:30 »
That's complete BS.
There have been many cases of those who have served adding medals or qualification badges they have never earned. That is stolen valour.

It's not like they wore the badge on their uniform...  settle down cowboy..

Offline Furniture

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2018, 02:24:14 »
That's complete BS.
There have been many cases of those who have served adding medals or qualification badges they have never earned. That is stolen valour.
Stolen Valour requires that you pretend to be someone/something you aren't. If you are making a tongue in cheek joke it's not stolen valour, no matter how many sensitive souls you offend.

Offline Downhiller229

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2018, 20:35:20 »
Stolen Valour requires that you pretend to be someone/something you aren't. If you are making a tongue in cheek joke it's not stolen valour, no matter how many sensitive souls you offend.

Thank you! If people are offended by this they are taking themselves too seriously.

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2019, 15:20:15 »
Thank you! If people are offended by this they are taking themselves too seriously.

Right. so the 2Lts doubled down this week with this

« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 16:49:25 by toonietuesday »

Offline Brihard

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2019, 15:22:36 »
You appear really bothered by this. It’s kids having fun getting under someone’s fingernails. They appear to be succeeding. Give it a rest and pick your battles.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2019, 15:29:00 »
You appear really bothered by this. It’s kids having fun getting under someone’s fingernails. They appear to be succeeding. Give it a rest and pick your battles.

you appear really bothered by my posting of this. it's me making an observation of an unusual situation. i seem to be succeeding in bothering you enough for you to claim that i should not be posting things that i find interesting. give it a rest and pick your nose.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2019, 15:34:07 »
Alrighty, I’ll go do that.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2019, 15:37:23 »
Alrighty, I’ll go do that.

sorry you got offended  :'(

Offline Brihard

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2019, 15:42:39 »
My feelings were hurt in places Cepacol can’t even reach.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Furniture

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2019, 15:49:43 »
you appear really bothered by my posting of this. it's me making an observation of an unusual situation. i seem to be succeeding in bothering you enough for you to claim that i should not be posting things that i find interesting. give it a rest and pick your nose.

Given that all four of your posts(at the time of writing) are in this thread you created, I'm guessing you're bored at work and trolling.

 :boring:

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2019, 16:06:38 »
Given that all four of your posts(at the time of writing) are in this thread you created, I'm guessing you're bored at work and trolling.

 :boring:

i'm not an army.ca forum pro like you mate. don't have time to build my street cred on army.ca where it really matters

Offline Furniture

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2019, 16:11:14 »
i'm not an army.ca forum pro like you mate. don't have time to build my street cred on army.ca where it really matters

haha I am hardly a pro, just someone who gets bored at work or home on occasion.

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2019, 16:22:15 »
i'm not an army.ca forum pro like you mate. don't have time to build my street cred on army.ca where it really matters

Nope, you're just someone from an identifiable unit, beaking off at people you don't know online.

You posted a question on a (mostly) military forum, which invited responses. Some of the responses were critical of the question - that's the risk you run when you ask a question. You seem upset that most of the responses you received weren't supportive of your position. That's also a risk you run when you ask a question.

If it really matters so much to you, why not put pen to paper (instead of anonymously slagging people online) and contact your chain of command to start a summary investigation.

That'll teach those meddling kids!
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2019, 16:34:20 »
So real jumpers and real pilots here, as a representative sample of valid offendees, have given both works of art a ‘meh...’

Are those here who remain offended, also direct offendees (a jumper or pilot), or just don’t have anything better to do with their time?

Regards
G2G
(Potential offendee who is in fact not offended)

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2019, 16:46:23 »
So real jumpers and real pilots here, as a representative sample of valid offendees, have given both works of art a ‘meh...’

Are those here who remain offended, also direct offendees (a jumper or pilot), or just don’t have anything better to do with their time?

Regards
G2G
(Potential offendee who is in fact not offended)

weather day  :waiting:

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2019, 16:53:42 »
Nope, you're just someone from an identifiable unit, beaking off at people you don't know online.

You posted a question on a (mostly) military forum, which invited responses. Some of the responses were critical of the question - that's the risk you run when you ask a question. You seem upset that most of the responses you received weren't supportive of your position. That's also a risk you run when you ask a question.

If it really matters so much to you, why not put pen to paper (instead of anonymously slagging people online) and contact your chain of command to start a summary investigation.

That'll teach those meddling kids!

thanks for the tip CFNIS agent! i'll just put a Ranger tab on my next patch and tell them if CFNIS is not offended neither should anyone

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2019, 17:36:14 »
My feelings were hurt in places Cepacol can’t even reach.
That's where foot powder comes in.  Cepacol is only for injuries above the waist.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2019, 18:21:41 »
thanks for the tip CFNIS agent! i'll just put a Ranger tab on my next patch and tell them if CFNIS is not offended neither should anyone

Holy sh;t dude, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? JesseWZ wasn't even bring flippant.
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2019, 18:24:40 »
To avoid possible dogpiling taking place, just a reminder to move forward with the discussion. DS has tended to issues raised.

Staff
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 18:28:57 by BeyondTheNow »

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2019, 20:58:12 »
Holy sh;t dude, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? JesseWZ wasn't even bring flippant.

you teach a MARS course, day 1 of course your fresh off bmoq A/Slts put diver dolphins on their course t-shirts and go around chanting diver slogans, you tell them to stop and they write "this course is diver qualified no matter who asks" in the classroom. you good with it? yes or no

carry on

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2019, 21:18:51 »
you teach a MARS course, day 1 of course your fresh off bmoq A/Slts put diver dolphins on their course t-shirts and go around chanting diver slogans, you tell them to stop and they write "this course is diver qualified no matter who asks" in the classroom. you good with it? yes or no

carry on

So you’re a QFI who’s upset with how student pilots are conducting themselves?

Offline JesseWZ

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2019, 22:09:13 »
thanks for the tip CFNIS agent! i'll just put a Ranger tab on my next patch and tell them if CFNIS is not offended neither should anyone

Toonie,

I'd like to further elaborate my post which you seem to have taken some offense to. When you originally posted your poll, there was very little information provided regarding the actions of the course. Despite this challenge, for the most part, the site membership mostly disagreed this constituted stolen valour. It, as described, certainly doesn't fall within the scheme of S. 419 of the Criminal Code. Is it in poor taste? Maybe. I'm neither pilot nor jumper so I really can't say.

As I mentioned earlier, you posted the poll - which tells me you were seeking the opinion of the site membership whether you were barking up the right tree. Now that a cross section of site membership has weighed in - it seems the purpose of your poll is fulfilled. You have an idea about what a cross section of military members and civilians believe your situation to be about.

You've chosen to attack some of the membership for being members here - after coming here to seek their opinion. If you don't feel like participating on army.ca is worthwhile, then why post the poll in the first place?

I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I suggested if you feel as strongly as you do about the course - there are administrative options available to you. Clearly you orbit this course in some fashion (either as DS, another student or support staff at the school). If you aren't in a position to simply order the course to cease the behaviour, then there exists chains of command for a reason. Attacking everyone who disagrees with you on army.ca about what constitutes stolen valour helps no one, makes you look foolish and immature and will probably draw more attention to *your* behaviour then that of the offending students (being students and all). You're the adult in the room in this situation.

Lastly, no one here speaks for their entire unit, the CAF, their subunit, or anyone else but themselves. Implying that I or the CFNIS is ok with the behaviour is inaccurate. You asked if it's stolen valour - the site has answered resoundingly that it's not. Maybe it's in poor taste, maybe it's not - but it's not stolen valour. That's all anyone here can definitively say. By implying I'm ok with the behaviour, you've moved the goal posts of your argument to no longer being about stolen valour but instead whether me personally would be ok with the behaviour.

Would I be offended if you ran around with a ranger tab on a course t-shirt? Nope, I wouldn't care in the slightest. You might find your face repeatedly running into a rangers clenched hand for some reason, but as far as I'm concerned, wear what you want. If you're not breaching a law or regulation, it's not my problem.

...And while I love the idea of being an "agent" - we don't get the cool titles our American equivalents have.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 22:36:56 by JesseWZ »
I will be seen and not heard... I will be seen and not heard... I will be seen and not heard...

Offline toonietuesday

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2019, 22:40:41 »
Toonie,

I'd like to further elaborate my post which you seem to have taken some offense to. When you originally posted your poll, there was very little information provided regarding the actions of the course. Despite this challenge, for the most part, the site membership mostly disagreed this constituted stolen valour. It, as described, certainly doesn't fall within the scheme of S. 419 of the Criminal Code. Is it in poor taste? Maybe. I'm neither pilot nor jumper so I really can't say.

As I mentioned earlier, you posted the poll - which tells me you were seeking the opinion of the site membership whether you were barking up the right tree. Now that a cross section of site membership has weighed in - it seems the purpose of your poll is fulfilled. You have an idea about what a cross section of military members and civilians believe your situation to be about.

You've chosen to attack some of the membership for being members here - after coming here to seek their opinion. If you don't feel like participating on army.ca is worthwhile, then why post the poll in the first place?

Finally, I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I suggested if you feel as strongly as you do about the course - there are administrative options available to you. Clearly you orbit this course in some fashion (either as DS, another student or support staff at the school). If you aren't in a position to simply order the course to cease the behaviour, then there exists chains of command for a reason. Attacking everyone who disagrees with you on army.ca about what constitutes stolen valour helps no one, makes you look foolish and immature and will probably draw more attention to *your* behaviour then that of the offending students (being students and all). You're the adult in the room in this situation.

Lastly, no one here speaks for their entire unit, the CAF, their subunit, or anyone else but themselves. Implying that I or the CFNIS is ok with the behaviour is inaccurate. You asked if it's stolen valour - the site has answered resoundingly that it's not. Maybe it's in poor taste, maybe it's not - but it's not stolen valour. That's all anyone here can definitively say. By implying I'm ok with the behaviour, you've moved the goal posts of your argument to no longer being about stolen valour but instead whether me personally would be ok with the behaviour.

Would I be offended if you ran around with a ranger tab on a course t-shirt? Nope, I wouldn't care in the slightest. You might find your face repeatedly running into a rangers clenched hand for some reason, but as far as I'm concerned, wear what you want. If you're not breaching a law or regulation, it's not my problem.

...And while I love the idea of being an "agent" - we don't get the cool titles our American equivalents have.

you're absolutely spot on mate. solid mature response, although i don't agree that i attacked anyone for having an opinion different from my own. sorry i was a bit bored today and got cheeky with some of your pals here.

 :-X

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Is this Stolen Valour
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2019, 08:15:20 »
I'll add a short comment;  why not go see the School Warrant Officer?  I know one of the CFFTS School WOs;  he is aircrew who also wears white jump wings.  If it's a genuine "issue", he'd deal with it.
Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.