Author Topic: Native Conflicts vs the Economy  (Read 4189 times)

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2019, 15:42:43 »
>It is arguable, in my opinion that it is a foreign land.

It's not foreign unless Canada is unwilling to escalate use of force as far as necessary to exercise sovereignty over it.

Modern health and preventive health care alone is worth more than all the land in the Americas.  (No amount of land can extend short average lifespans.)  Earlier immigrants to the Americas have gotten an extremely good deal compared to where they would be right now if they were still making their own way up the human tech tree.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2019, 16:35:33 »
>It is arguable, in my opinion that it is a foreign land.

It's not foreign unless Canada is unwilling to escalate use of force as far as necessary to exercise sovereignty over it.

Modern health and preventive health care alone is worth more than all the land in the Americas.  (No amount of land can extend short average lifespans.)  Earlier immigrants to the Americas have gotten an extremely good deal compared to where they would be right now if they were still making their own way up the human tech tree.

I accept that there is a good bargain to be had, regardless of resorting to force.  The Treaty Natives accepted that bargain.   To date the BC Natives haven't.

Perhaps a better appreciation would be had if they had their sovereignty and were free to draw their own conclusions.  Freedom or security is an ongoing debate - as the Brits are finding out.

It is one thing to be able to blame someone else for your inadequate health care.  It is another thing to be responsible for your own health care and have no one else to blame.  It is still yet another thing to believe that you have been forced into your current situation against your will with no exit options.

There were slaves who worried about emancipation because at least on the plantation they had a roof, food and running water.  And there are prisoners who commit crimes so they can return to the comfort of prison.

It seems like not a bad idea to give the locals what they wish for.  And let T'simshian and Lax Kwa'alams decide who controls the border with the Haida.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2019, 17:39:08 »
>Perhaps a better appreciation would be had if they had their sovereignty and were free to draw their own conclusions.

Agreed.  But I don't believe in have-the-cake-and-eat-it-too solutions, or solutions which don't eventually lead to exactly one class/category/tier of citizenship for all Canadians.  And what degree of freedom and protection (from abusive "self-government") is granted to the individuals who don't want to be quaint living museum exhibits?
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2019, 21:07:05 »
As long as words like sovereignty, self determination, treaty rights, etc are being used, there won't be any equality on either side. Its going to take some tough love and a lot of cash but we need to get rid of natives vs everyone else. We're simply setting things up for failure every time. If not failure, at least millions in cost overruns and timelines that no corporation or project should have to shoulder, while waiting on negotiations.

Everyone in this country is entitled to exactly the same thing. No reserves, same chance at education and medical and everything else.

This system of two seperate classes has cost us billions and increased lost opportunity because of bickering and one upmanship.

Aboriginals need to be brought into society as active and equal participants. No special treatment, perks or takeaways.

One only need look at the problems its causing in the petroleum sector. The lost time, money and opportunity is enough to prove this system is not sustainable, profitable or equitable.

Or reserves with no clean water or housing, but millionaire chiefs in their million dollar homes.

You can be damned sure that if the government wanted my land for a pipeline, they'd have possession in 90 days. Jail or no jail.

When it entails projects that support the whole of Canada, for the good of Canada, nobody or group should be given leave to tie it up, delay it or stop its progress.

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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2019, 07:58:28 »
When it entails projects that support the whole of Canada, for the good of Canada, nobody or group should be given leave to tie it up, delay it or stop its progress.

Who stopped Energy East?
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2019, 09:40:36 »
Actually, Rifleman62, it was the very company that professed it wanted to build it who then stopped.

Many Quebec politicians (and numerous Ontario ones) indicated they didn't want the pipeline built, but it was not in their power to stop it, one way or the other.

What stopped it is that the National Energy Board sent the company back to do its classes after finding that the company failed to provide the required supporting documentation to its application to permit a complete evaluation of the project. The company then decided to pull its application and not to provide the required documentation. Did it have something to hide?

However, even though politicians in Quebec and Ontario claimed victory and declared themselves happy, they had nothing to do with the stoppage.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2019, 09:54:58 »
When it entails projects that support the whole of Canada, for the good of Canada, nobody or group should be given leave to tie it up, delay it or stop its progress.

The crux of the problem, from what I can tell (so correct me if I'm wrong), with this statement is that many of these First Nations who live on traditional territory that is "unceded" don't actually consider their nations and terriroty part of Canada. I think... When you try and google "is unceded native land Canadian territory" or something similar to that, you don't get much.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2019, 09:55:04 »
Then you answered the question.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2019, 11:02:53 »
The crux of the problem, from what I can tell (so correct me if I'm wrong), with this statement is that many of these First Nations who live on traditional territory that is "unceded" don't actually consider their nations and terriroty part of Canada. I think... When you try and google "is unceded native land Canadian territory" or something similar to that, you don't get much.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. How do you create a sovereign country (the unceded land) inside a sovereign country? We need to put a stop to this system. It's stupid and divisive. Nobody should get to stand in the way of progress, when it's for the good of the country. How do you let the Grand Duchy of Fenwick override the wishes of millions of citizens inside their host country? If they don't consider themselves part of Canada, why do they keep taking our money?

Yes politicians think they stopped Energy East. I think all they got was a reprieve til after the election. It'll be back. I think investors, in all sectors, know Canada is a great deal. They just have to out wait the trudeau party obstructionists.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2019, 12:00:09 »
I suspect those who deem their land "unceded" and want to exercise "sovereignty" don't really mean they want to bear the costs and responsibilities of being truly sovereign.  Their position is somewhat like that of Quebec sovereigntists - keep all the advantages of being part of Canada, with fewer obligations than other levels of government in Canada and greater abilities to collect and distribute rents for themselves.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2019, 15:45:58 »
Case in point, the message coming back is that Treaties are not the way to go. A modern treaty is detailed and lays out FN governance clearly and puts the long term funding of that into their hands to raise and spend. The Nisga had to allow something they might not otherwise had done so in order to get funding from a proponent to run the programs they promised to their people.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2019, 16:45:42 »
Another problem, I believe, is the divergent views held about the Hudson's Bay Company and Rupert's Land.

The Hudson's Bay Company worked hard, up until the time that it sold it to Canada, to ensure that no settlers were allowed on its territory. The Company had no desire to upset the locals and disrupt the supply of furs.  They established trading posts from Astoria to Stikine, by Fort Chip and Fort Garry to York Factory but actively discouraged settlers.

The one time they permitted settlers (Red River 1811) they proved themselves right when the Seven Oaks Massacre, the Pemmican War and the subsequent Metis Rebellions occurred.  They ended up having to hire a bunch of Swiss mercenaries cashiered out of British service at the end of the Napoleonic wars to protect the settlers.

The interior of BC wasn't "settled" until after the Gold Rushes.

Effectively the HBC claim on the lands as a private commercial estate protected the locals from the settlers.  The Government bought out the HBC commercial claim in 1869 so as to permit settlment. 

It was only after Confederation that land claims became a significant issue.  Before then borders were less important than the limited number of HBC Big Box stores scattered around the continent.  Interestingly, even after HBC surrendered their interest in Rupert's Land for Canadian cash it maintained its trade and network of stores.

I guess the big question is why the Treaty system worked so well with the "Flyover Country" natives and so poorly in the Mountains. 

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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2019, 18:30:04 »
Speaking of "Flyover Country", the new Minister of Indigenous Services adding to global warming.

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2019, 21:10:29 »
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2019, 21:21:01 »
I don't get it. Why's this a big deal? Everything in that picture sounds reasonable?
"Aboard his ship, there is nothing outside a captain's control." - Captain Sir Edward Pellew

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2019, 21:41:23 »
Another problem, I believe, is the divergent views held about the Hudson's Bay Company and Rupert's Land.

The Hudson's Bay Company worked hard, up until the time that it sold it to Canada, to ensure that no settlers were allowed on its territory. The Company had no desire to upset the locals and disrupt the supply of furs.  They established trading posts from Astoria to Stikine, by Fort Chip and Fort Garry to York Factory but actively discouraged settlers.

The one time they permitted settlers (Red River 1811) they proved themselves right when the Seven Oaks Massacre, the Pemmican War and the subsequent Metis Rebellions occurred.  They ended up having to hire a bunch of Swiss mercenaries cashiered out of British service at the end of the Napoleonic wars to protect the settlers.

The interior of BC wasn't "settled" until after the Gold Rushes.

Effectively the HBC claim on the lands as a private commercial estate protected the locals from the settlers.  The Government bought out the HBC commercial claim in 1869 so as to permit settlment. 

It was only after Confederation that land claims became a significant issue.  Before then borders were less important than the limited number of HBC Big Box stores scattered around the continent.  Interestingly, even after HBC surrendered their interest in Rupert's Land for Canadian cash it maintained its trade and network of stores.

I guess the big question is why the Treaty system worked so well with the "Flyover Country" natives and so poorly in the Mountains.

Mainly as the Cree controlled access to trade goods for a big part of it and suppressed the other tribes. It was the NWC that upset the comfortable setup that the HBC had and brought in trade booze, that forced HBC to do the same.

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2019, 22:54:07 »
I don't get it. Why's this a big deal? Everything in that picture sounds reasonable?

There are a few parts missing from the original post on SDA.

There was a screen capture of the airline schedule to Laronge, SK showing multiple commercial flights, daily.

The implication is that Seamus is unwisely showing an "imperial" demeanor as he attempts "reconciliation" from the comfort of a government business jet.

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Re: Native Conflicts vs the Economy
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2019, 10:00:58 »
The crux of the problem, from what I can tell (so correct me if I'm wrong), with this statement is that many of these First Nations who live on traditional territory that is "unceded" don't actually consider their nations and terriroty part of Canada. I think... When you try and google "is unceded native land Canadian territory" or something similar to that, you don't get much.

That's because a judge is sometimes the one who decides on that.
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