Author Topic: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training  (Read 6703 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2019, 21:09:51 »
People don't always listen to 'instruction' either and end up a casualty of the cold.  Last winter, there was a candidate on the Aircrew Arctic Survival course run by CFSSAT, Wpg.  The first serial ran in Jan 2018, one of the student 'insisted' they couldn't work with gloves or mitts on.  Then the staff noticed...the same candidate without a toque or anything on their head.

The staff (mostly SAR Techs) told the mbr to dress right, etc repeatedly.  Student was removed for their own safety shortly after but not without some cold injuries.

It's not exactly warm at Crystal City in January...I recall temps of -50 and colder in the wind.  No gloves/mitts/hat ???
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2019, 21:11:57 »
People don't always listen to 'instruction' either and end up a casualty of the cold.  Last winter, there was a candidate on the Aircrew Arctic Survival course run by CFSSAT, Wpg.  The first serial ran in Jan 2018, one of the student 'insisted' they couldn't work with gloves or mitts on.  Then the staff noticed...the same candidate without a toque or anything on their head.

The staff (mostly SAR Techs) told the mbr to dress right, etc repeatedly.  Student was removed for their own safety shortly after but not without some cold injuries.

It's not exactly warm at Crystal City in January...I recall temps of -50 and colder in the wind.  No gloves/mitts/hat ???

Like not wearing a helmet in combat..... people like that need to be released ASAP.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2019, 22:19:42 »
Anyone who ever drove an M 113 with a dodgy heater across the Wainwright tundra in January would joyfully tell you to go take a flying frig at a rolling bagel if you said he couldn't wear his mukluks.

Yes I know that feeling all too well.

So today for shytes and giggles I dressed in mukluk like things, ski pants, fleece under a light insulated jacket, with toque and gloves. Shovelled snow for about an hour. No issues other than glasses fogging up.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2019, 22:57:11 »
Yes I know that feeling all too well.

So today for shytes and giggles I dressed in mukluk like things, ski pants, fleece under a light insulated jacket, with toque and gloves. Shovelled snow for about an hour. No issues other than glasses fogging up.

And it was only Minus 34, right? :)
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Offline GAP

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2019, 23:48:58 »
And it was only Minus 34, right? :)

With a -51 C windchill......but who is counting....
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2019, 23:51:29 »
And it was only Minus 34, right? :)

-35 C. Balmy. Until tonight at -37 and my truck doesn’t start. Still shivering a bit.
The plug ins for block heaters at work are on a timer. So the block isn’t warm, therefore extra strain on the battery and engine. Good thing that cables were available.
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Offline HappyWithYourHacky

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2019, 08:19:37 »
With a -51 C windchill......but who is counting....

Yeah, but it was a dry cold.

Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2019, 09:22:44 »
We were in Churchill when it was still an Army cold weather school (??). Storm came up. It was so cold with the windchill that the polar bear sentry had to be pulled in. The safety M113 keep going all night. Saw a Blackbart from Churchill Rocket Research Range launch.

Anyone read or heard on the news about global warming lately? Anything from the Honorable Catherine McKenna, Minister of the Environment and Climate Change? It seems when there are winter storms or freezing temperatures they shut up.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:22:40 by JesseWZ »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2019, 10:01:58 »
Anyone read or heard on the news about global warming lately?

Someone was tweeting about it,
https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+climate+%22global+warming%22&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:w&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC2qbA5pXgAhUG4IMKHYBRByMQpwUIJQ&biw=1280&bih=641

For discussion of the subject,

Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=32987.925
118 pages.



« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 10:24:37 by mariomike »

Offline RomeoJuliet

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2019, 12:12:59 »
We were in Churchill when it was still an Army cold weather school (??). Storm came up. It was so cold with the windchill that the polar bear sentry had to be pulled in. The safety M113 keep going all night. Saw a Blackbart from Churchill Rocket Research Range launch.

Anyone read or heard on the news about global warming lately? Anything from the Honorable Catherine McKenna, Minister of the Environment and Climate Change? It seems when there are winter storms or freezing temperatures they shut up.
Why yes as a matter of fact this was tweeted recently by Trump ;

‘In the beautiful Midwest, windchill temperatures are reaching minus 60 degrees, the coldest ever recorded. In coming days, expected to get even colder. People can’t last outside even for minutes. What the hell is going on with Global Waming? Please come back fast, we need you!’


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Offline SprCForr

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2019, 16:11:52 »
Those of you who may know mikeninercharlie, he can attest to a certain Ex Rapier Thrust in '81 or '82 when guys were dropping like flies from all the units in the brigade due to cold injuries.


I don't think I've warmed up yet from that one.
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Offline SprCForr

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2019, 16:17:01 »
Anyone who ever drove an M 113 with a dodgy heater across the Wainwright tundra in January would joyfully tell you to go take a flying frig at a rolling bagel if you said he couldn't wear his mukluks.


Yup, or decreeing that civ kit under the issue shite was verboten when driving the things. Full credit to John for sticking up for me (unsuccessfully) with the RSM.
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2019, 17:22:01 »
Those of you who may know mikeninercharlie, he can attest to a certain Ex Rapier Thrust in '81 or '82 when guys were dropping like flies from all the units in the brigade due to cold injuries.

This wasn't held in Wainwright by chance?
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Offline expwor

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2019, 19:44:18 »
People don't always listen to 'instruction' either and end up a casualty of the cold.  Last winter, there was a candidate on the Aircrew Arctic Survival course run by CFSSAT, Wpg.  The first serial ran in Jan 2018, one of the student 'insisted' they couldn't work with gloves or mitts on.  Then the staff noticed...the same candidate without a toque or anything on their head.

The staff (mostly SAR Techs) told the mbr to dress right, etc repeatedly.  Student was removed for their own safety shortly after but not without some cold injuries.

It's not exactly warm at Crystal City in January...I recall temps of -50 and colder in the wind.  No gloves/mitts/hat ???

Just a civies opinion with a Militia four day Winter Warfare course (2 days theory, 2 days camping) I am no expert. But it sounds like that member wanted off the course.  Member probably listened just ignored and hoped to get an RTU
Again just a very non expert opinion, I'd say my two cents worth but likely not worth even that

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Offline sidemount

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2019, 21:01:32 »
Back when the Earth was still cooling (I think it was sometime in the late 1970s) when one dug a hole, large or small depending on quantity, to accommodate human waste during exercises, there was occasion that a small US Army contingent was with us in Wainwright when the weather was appropriate for "winter warfare".  One of the items of comfort gear that they had with them was an all metal, collapsible, portable camping toilet.  While this may have benefits of durability and ease of cleaning it definitely was not ideal when the temp dipped below freezing.  There was more than one Southern gentleman who, unaccustomed to the weather, found himself stuck to the seat.

As for driving in mukluks, I recall a time (also long ago, it might have even been during that Rapier Thrust previously mentioned) when direction came down that drivers had to wear full winter gear (mukluks, parkas, etc) even when behind the wheel.  On a couple of previous exercises (including a 1 Fd Amb winter ex in Wainwright) there had been some casualties that resulted following vehicle breakdown/accident when the crew/occupants were left stranded for prolonged periods without adequate cold weather gear.
And this is why shitter socks are a thing, a spare pair of socks can save your *** in a -35 porta-potty...literally.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2019, 21:28:53 »
And this is why shitter socks are a thing, a spare pair of socks can save your *** in a -35 porta-potty...literally.

Awesome. Really.

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2019, 22:18:12 »
This wasn't held in Wainwright by chance?

It was.
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2019, 23:36:11 »
This wasn't held in Wainwright by chance?

It were and it were not fun. We’d call it “challenging “ these days.
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2019, 01:01:37 »
I had a conversation with someone in Pet yesterday. They said it wasn't just The RCD, that the injuries were spread over the formation.  :dunno: :

Has 'Safety is a command responsibility' become a platitude only uttered on ranges as a checklist item?

Where were the mandatory frostbite checks?

How many troops, weren't informed or checked, by the tent i/c and went to bed fully clothed? I once caught a troop in full winter crew suit, in his complete sleeping bag. I went into his tent, looking for someone and recognised his hood, while he was tucked away. He got pneumonia two days later.

Those are just a couple of winter ops O Gp points. I wonder if they, and the rest of the standard  checklist items were given and/or followed?

Have we lost that much corporate knowledge of winter ops that someone didn't know enough to stop it as soon as certain injuries started to cluster?

Let's hope we learn our lesson and act on it,  securing the best off the shelf stuff available, asap.

Are we still as short of cold weather gear as we were a couple (?) of years ago?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 01:13:35 by Fishbone Jones »
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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2019, 07:53:23 »
I had a conversation with someone in Pet yesterday. They said it wasn't just The RCD, that the injuries were spread over the formation.  :dunno: :

Not accurate.  This incident was confined to one unit.

The rest of your points are all valid.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Canadian soldiers suffer frostbite during winter training
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2019, 10:16:55 »
Awesome. Really.

Doing mining exploration north of Flin Flon in -25 I carried a piece of Styrofoam with a hole in it to make a insta potty anywhere needed.