Author Topic: Identifying old stores in the RQ  (Read 3582 times)

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Offline GhostofJacK

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Identifying old stores in the RQ
« on: April 12, 2019, 19:55:08 »
So we were clearing out boxes of dust collectors in the RQ and came across a triwall labeled 'Riot Helmets' with no NSN. I figure there could be someone that could help identify it.

The helmet looks like our (now older) helmets we just switched from except the back is very vertical rather than sloped. The brim seems very American except the suspension system's NSN says it's ours. It has (what feels like) a ballistic skirt to go around the back of the neck so that hints to me it's a Chimo's helmet or breaching perhaps.

Anyone have idea? The whole lot of them seem unused and just dusty. We are trying to determine to whom they should go to if not the depot.

Thanks.
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2019, 18:03:23 »
Shoot me an email at work - Bradley dot Browne at the forces stuff, and I'll see what I can dig up for you. 
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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2019, 20:49:08 »
Theres a NSN on the helmet liner band. CGCS should list associated items, although not sure if it does it for obsolete kit.

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2019, 07:41:47 »
I'm leaning towards a riot control helmet of some sort rather than EOD/breaching or something like that.

Doing some digging.

NS
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2019, 07:48:26 »
Try 4240-21-AAB-0853

NS
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Offline Target Up

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2019, 19:05:57 »
They came out with these when we switched over from the old steel tortoise to the gen 1 Kevlar because the godawful spring tension visors wouldn’t fit. Does the army not do IS training any more? It was some of the most fun you could have, gas guns, water canons, shield and baton. Good times.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 19:20:38 by Target Up »
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline MJP

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2019, 19:39:11 »
They came out with these when we switched over from the old steel tortoise to the gen 1 Kevlar because the godawful spring tension visors wouldn’t fit. Does the army not do IS training any more? It was some of the most fun you could have, gas guns, water canons, shield and baton. Good times.

No, as the army realized that it really isn't their job.  No point in training for something that we don't do.   Domestically this is a LEO task and using the CAF against Canadians is the last last resort.

Not saying the training isn't cool, but I think politically, legally and optics wise it isn't something that will be authorized on any sort of regular basis so no point in training and holding stock.
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2019, 08:09:01 »
Agreed - this is probably way beyond the intent of 'aid to civil power'

I got to watch some Ottawa Police guys practicing their drills at Connaught once.  It was interesting - their 'close order drill' takes a lot of training to get right.

NS
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Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2019, 12:18:25 »
Agreed - this is probably way beyond the intent of 'aid to civil power'


Actually, it is exactly the intent of "aid to civil power".

Quote
Section 277 of the National Defence Act provides:

"277. Where a riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur, the attorney general of the province in which the place where the riot or disturbance occurs or is considered as likely to occur is situated, on the initiative of the attorney general or on the receipt of notification from a judge of a superior, county or district court having jurisdiction in the place that the services of the Canadian Forces are required in aid of the civil power, may, by requisition in writing addressed to the Chief of the Defence Staff, require the Canadian Forces, or such part thereof as the Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as the Chief of the Defence Staff may designate considers necessary, to be called out on service in aid of the civil power."

All that other stuff the CAF does, filling sand bags, fighting fires, shovelling snow . . .  that's "assistance to civil authorities"

http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2alpha/alpha-eng.html?lang=eng&i=1&index=alt&srchtxt=MILITARY%20AID%20CIVIL%20AUTHORITIES
Quote
In Canada, there is a distinction made between "aid to the civil power" and "assistance to civil authorities". The former term refers to military aid provided to the provincial police forces to restore and maintain law and order. The latter term encompasses all other forms of assistance the military gives to the civil community. Examples include search and rescue operations, counter-terrorism response, emergencies (natural and man-induced), fisheries and border protection, humanitarian assistance, counter-drug operations, arms smuggling, illegal immigrants, environmental surveillance and special events.

Back in the day, that was one of the fun things to do on JLC.  It was the add-on to the course to qualify for "Base Defence Force".
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Offline Target Up

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2019, 13:21:31 »
I guess those two prison riots in the Fraser Valley that we responded to in the 80s are just figments of my imagination.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline 211RadOp

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2019, 13:38:17 »
Or Kingston Pen in '71.
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Offline reverse_eng

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2019, 14:24:43 »
Use local police, RCMP, corrections, whatever. The military shouldn't be used against citizens (inmates or other) unless it's a last resort. MJP said it best.

Offline MJP

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2019, 14:36:07 »
I guess those two prison riots in the Fraser Valley that we responded to in the 80s are just figments of my imagination.

No one said your experiences weren't valid or didn't happen.  We are 30+ years removed from that era, things change.

No one has said we wouldn't do in the future either.  However the chances are between slim and none so there is no point in holding that sort of kit or to conduct that sort of training.
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Offline Target Up

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2019, 20:40:56 »
Anyways. These were bought for riot control trg when tho old clip on visors would not fit the new Kevlar pisspot.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2019, 20:55:48 »
True about that. The days when only the army could bring mass of numbers and specialized equipment to control, contain civil unrest are waning. After Oka and Williams lake, it isn't palatable or useful given the decades it takes to regain trust.
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Offline NavyShooter

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2019, 11:06:55 »
I stand corrected ... I have learned!
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2019, 13:21:38 »
Walking through the depot in Shilo came across stacks of WWII british pattern petrol tins. I also remember going to the depot in Chilliwack, being told there are no desks in the system, yet a corner of the warehouse was stacked full of wooden ones, I said what about these? They said, oh no you can't have those, they are "obsolete".
You be surprised how much old equipment lurks in the system.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2019, 15:06:36 »
Use local police, RCMP, corrections, whatever. The military shouldn't be used against citizens (inmates or other) unless it's a last resort. MJP said it best.

Not an incorrect statement. 

But the Army is the Government's last resort. 

And better the Government let the Army figure out how to dismantle a riot with minimal skull cracking than having it try the tactics of Amritsar.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2019, 16:43:21 »


You be surprised how much old equipment lurks in the system.

If you have a 1950s vintage CAF warship, we still have spares, new in the box.

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Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2019, 16:50:48 »
Use local police, RCMP, corrections, whatever. The military shouldn't be used against citizens (inmates or other) unless it's a last resort. MJP said it best.

'Citizens' who escalate the level of force beyond the capabilities of the civilian authorities to deal with the situation safely and successfully deserve to be landed on by a military force with enough of the right power and training to sort them out, matching force to force.

Hence the reason that Aid the the Civil Power/ Authourity one of our ongoing mandates, and the reason why we still need a wide range of tools and training to tailor our response to any given situation.
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2019, 19:55:06 »
'Citizens' who escalate the level of force beyond the capabilities of the civilian authorities to deal with the situation safely and successfully deserve to be landed on by a military force with enough of the right power and training to sort them out, matching force to force.

Hence the reason that Aid the the Civil Power/ Authourity one of our ongoing mandates, and the reason why we still need a wide range of tools and training to tailor our response to any given situation.
After a certain level of force, isn't it better, too, for it to not be police delivering it, as far as public perception? "The Army" can be dropped on a situation, do whatever civil authority requires, then more or less disappear: police are a permanent presence.

Offline Brihard

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2019, 20:17:41 »
'Citizens' who escalate the level of force beyond the capabilities of the civilian authorities to deal with the situation safely and successfully deserve to be landed on by a military force with enough of the right power and training to sort them out, matching force to force.

Hence the reason that Aid the the Civil Power/ Authourity one of our ongoing mandates, and the reason why we still need a wide range of tools and training to tailor our response to any given situation.

There is now much less that police cannot handle than there used to be- be it tactical, public order, CBRN, or what have you. While having the military as a card up the state’s sleeve is still advantageous, it should be an absolute last resort in situations involving confrontations / use of force against civilians.
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Offline ballz

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2019, 21:03:45 »
I am pretty sure we still do have a crowd control course on the books but it's rarely run. Personally, I think it's something we should be running training on and practicing. It'd be a lot more practical than most of the IBTS we are forced to bastardize every year.

For some reason this thread has focused on its usefulness domestically, which seems rather odd given the environments we've been operating in in the last 20-30 years and is not what I have in mind at all when I think of how it could be useful...
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Offline kratz

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2019, 21:21:04 »
There is no problem with disposing of old kit.
"Getting 'rid of kit" to clear space / ect... is just as bad as hanging on to kit.

As ballz mentioned,

Rapid aid to Haiti, ect...after a hurricane would warrant the use of this gear. 
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Identifying old stores in the RQ
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2019, 21:45:51 »

If you have a 1950s vintage CAF warship, we still have spares, new in the box.

You be surprised, there are likley ships out there using similar gear.