Poll

Is there life after death?

No- when the brain is dead so is the person and there are no other feelings or consciousness active.
7 (38.9%)
Yes- there must be something because there is growing anecdotal evidence.
4 (22.2%)
Yes- the spirit lives on.
5 (27.8%)
Yes- "Walkers" are among us.
2 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Voting closes: August 09, 2019, 22:36:54

Author Topic: Life after death  (Read 11538 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 38,430
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,078
Life after death
« on: May 02, 2019, 21:33:57 »
Interesting article in the National Post: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/life-after-life-does-consciousness-continue-after-our-brain-dies

The conventional, objective scientific and medical opinion is that when the brain dies, the conscious person dies. With better record keeping and sharing of information, there are instances where people who are scientifically dead but have somehow recovered. What is more, some of them report actually being somewhat conscious during resuscitation and other emergency procedures even though they are flatline for many minutes.

Although it sounds weird and somewhat hokey, some neuroscientists in the AWARE and AWAREII study are positing that conscious feelings - like guilt - are perhaps not necessarily associated wholly with near chemical and electrical brain function but also might include some other -as yet unidentified- function that may be "out of body". They say yes, there are neuro chemical actions associated with perceptions and experiences which terminate with brain death, but is there also something else that is "conscious" at least for a few minutes after brain death occurs?






« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 11:37:06 by BeyondTheNow »
Living the lean life

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2019, 21:45:03 »
What is more, some of them report actually being somewhat conscious during resuscitation and other emergency procedures even though they are flatline for many minutes.

Like when they talk about that "bright white light".

Maybe it was the paramedics shining a penlight in their eyes?


Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 548,370
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,053
Re: Life after death
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2019, 10:07:15 »
Quote
... brain is dead so is the person and there are no other feelings...
Reminds me of a particular Merit Board, back when I was in NDHQ.    ;)

Online AbdullahD

    update status.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Full Member
  • *
  • 26,340
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 477
Re: Life after death
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2019, 19:47:06 »
I believe the soul lives on.. surprise! Lol

But these anecdotal stories of life after death, I think have more in common with a childs imagination trying to process a traumatic event.. then actual proof of anything.

It is a huge existential crisis for many, facing their mortality. So to think the brain "breaks" and creates a scenario to alleviate that crisis to me.. is far more realistic.

Now having said all that, those who have gone through such situations adamantly and vociferously proclaim that such things did happen and does prove whatever point they wish it to prove... but when Muslims claim they see Muhammad, Christians claim to see Jesus and Jewish people claim they see Moses or what have you and so on and so forth for other religions. It starts to complicate the soundness of the claims, because to many variations in the stories exist.. I would think the result would be far more universal.

I do not think it is anyones place to call people out on their near death or after life experience, unless and of course they are trying to monetize it. But I think in 99% of cases it is an indicator of an underlying issues.. same way some people use religion as a crutch to get through bad times instead of properly putting it away (yes religion can help to put it away, but often it is used to just cover it up).

Any rate thats were I sit... I didn't see an option that made my point.

The after life exists, heaven and God both exists, but we believe on faith.

Abdullah

Offline stoker dave

  • New Member
  • **
  • 2,485
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 33
Re: Life after death
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2019, 07:53:29 »
There have been lately a number of excellent books that clearly and factually state that there is no god, no afterlife, no nothing.  We are born, we live, we die. 

Religion in general fails "the three P" test:  it is without precedent, it is without proof and it is without parallel. 

We live in a galaxy of about 200 billion stars.  There are something like 200 billion known galaxies.  To suggest that some omniscient, all powerful being (if such a being existed) took any interest in our lives is fanciful.

Make the most of what you have.  Cherish your friends.  Be kind.  You don't need folk tales and mythology to tell you that is right and proper. 

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 146,780
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,339
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Life after death
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2019, 10:21:02 »
Dave,

If I read the original article correctly, the suggestion was consciousness, aliveness, could not be fully explained by biological brain function. The article did not go onto state that religion had to be only possible reason.

I am of the opinion that the Universe is a big and complex thing that we don't even begin to understand. So- who knows?

Offline Fishbone Jones

    MSC -5920.

  • "Some people will only like you if you fit inside their box. Don't be afraid to shove that box up their ass."
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 278,852
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 18,604
    • Army.ca
Re: Life after death
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2019, 15:29:01 »
We'll just have to wait and see when the lights go out.

The one truth is that that those lights will go out. The rest is speculation.

I do know, for myself anyway, things are easier to accept and parse, now that I've pretty well given up on religion. I don't feel the need to be constricted or restrained by something that was written thousands of years ago. My upbringing and family values set my moral compass and continue to do so. My background wasn't especially religious, but at the age of twelve, I attended Temple, Salvation Army, United, Catholic, Anglican and Baptist churches. My mother had one rule at the time and that was to attend church. Didn't care which one, but I had to go. I decided to use that to my advantage. It gave me a pretty well rounded religious education. Enough so, that I was able to decide what direction to take.

I have faith, just not a religious one.

If there is an afterlife, I'll have to deal with it (or not) when it comes. In the meantime, I don't feel encumbered by religious values to meet a certain goal or live my life according to some unproven omnipotent instruction.

Perhaps there is something there or maybe the visions and conditions are the mass synapse firings of the dying brain. Kinda like seeing stars when the brain is injured.

Whatever it is, if it exists, will exist no matter what religious values a person holds. I think it will be physical and metaphysical, if it happens.

I do remember years ago, there was some scientific study that claimed at the moment of death, there was an ever so slight shift downwards in the weight of the body. Very minuscule. The amount appeared to be in the same general measurement, no matter who the body had been or condition. The speculation, at the time, was that perhaps it was the soul. I don't know if anything ever came of it, I never heard much after the original study.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 38,430
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,078
Re: Life after death
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2019, 19:03:19 »
"do you believe in God?"..... "no, I believe in ammunition."
Living the lean life

Offline stoker dave

  • New Member
  • **
  • 2,485
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 33
Re: Life after death
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 08:51:36 »

I do remember years ago, there was some scientific study that claimed at the moment of death, there was an ever so slight shift downwards in the weight of the body. Very minuscule. The amount appeared to be in the same general measurement, no matter who the body had been or condition. The speculation, at the time, was that perhaps it was the soul. I don't know if anything ever came of it, I never heard much after the original study.

Sorry but that is an urban legend.  There is no scientific data to support this.

Without trying to take this discussion further off track, the relationship between mass and energy is well established (you may be familiar with Einstein's famous E = mcc).  Any change in mass would result in an emission of energy.  No such energy has ever been detected. 

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 67,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Life after death
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 11:18:23 »
It makes sense that for a minute amount of time a human might be aware they've indeed died (or are in the process of), since the first method of determining death is when the heart stops beating. (Not all dying/deceased individuals are connected to machines specifically measuring brain activity.)  It's been proven countless times that there can still be brain activity and the possibility of some form of awareness until all electrical impulses in the brain have completely ceased. It's a sobering thought, really.

Having been present during the passing of an individual, it's interesting hearing the accounts from various ICU medical staff (some will openly talk about their experiences and opinions when asked, and/or if audiences are receptive to the information they'll freely discuss), and what their thoughts/feelings are about the entire process of death.



 
~ "Don't do the dumb." ~

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 67,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Life after death
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 11:35:37 »
We'll just have to wait and see when the lights go out.

The one truth is that that those lights will go out. The rest is speculation.

I do know, for myself anyway, things are easier to accept and parse, now that I've pretty well given up on religion. I don't feel the need to be constricted or restrained by something that was written thousands of years ago. My upbringing and family values set my moral compass and continue to do so. My background wasn't especially religious, but at the age of twelve, I attended Temple, Salvation Army, United, Catholic, Anglican and Baptist churches. My mother had one rule at the time and that was to attend church. Didn't care which one, but I had to go. I decided to use that to my advantage. It gave me a pretty well rounded religious education. Enough so, that I was able to decide what direction to take.

I have faith, just not a religious one.

If there is an afterlife, I'll have to deal with it (or not) when it comes. In the meantime, I don't feel encumbered by religious values to meet a certain goal or live my life according to some unproven omnipotent instruction.

Perhaps there is something there or maybe the visions and conditions are the mass synapse firings of the dying brain. Kinda like seeing stars when the brain is injured.

Whatever it is, if it exists, will exist no matter what religious values a person holds. I think it will be physical and metaphysical, if it happens.

I do remember years ago, there was some scientific study that claimed at the moment of death, there was an ever so slight shift downwards in the weight of the body. Very minuscule. The amount appeared to be in the same general measurement, no matter who the body had been or condition. The speculation, at the time, was that perhaps it was the soul. I don't know if anything ever came of it, I never heard much after the original study.

FB,

I believe you're referring to this. I've attached a few articles referencing the study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025636/

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2004/feb/19/science.science

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/weight-of-the-soul/

Physics has proven the human body possesses energy and it's also proven that energy doesn't just disappear, it gets transferred. I absolutely believe the body has/is energy. I used to believe in a soul and in God, but I'm not really certain what I believe anymore.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 20:55:19 by BeyondTheNow »
~ "Don't do the dumb." ~

Offline stoker dave

  • New Member
  • **
  • 2,485
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 33
Re: Life after death
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2019, 19:21:04 »

Physics has proven the human body possesses energy and it's also proven that energy doesn't just disappear, it gets transferred. I absolutely believe the body has/is energy. I used to believe in a soul and in God, but I'm not really certain what I believe anymore.

I have spent the last two days trying to decide if I should respond to this post.  On the one hand, I don't wish to start a fight or debate with someone whose mind is already made up.  But on the other hand I cannot let such statements go unchallenged. 

So I decided to speak up (a few glasses of red wine may have helped - hic!).

You are correct that the human body possess energy:  mechanical, heat, electrical and electromagnetic come to mind.  Each of these types of energy is well known and well understood.  Each can be defined and measured.  The mechanisms by which one form of energy is transferred to another are all well understood.  So is the relationship between matter and energy.   

I am ok that you have 'faith'.  Let's agree that 'faith' means that you believe in something even though it cannot be proven (or disproven).  But if you are going to say the body has 'energy', that is a term that has a precise meaning.  It is something that can be measured and proven (or disproven). 

If you are suggesting that there exists some type of 'energy' that has not been defined, has not been shown to exist and possibly violates any number of laws of physics, well, that is wrong.  If your faith suggests that such a thing must exist, that is ok with me.  But please don't call it 'energy'.  Because that is not what it is.

You may be familiar with the expression "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".  If you wish to claim that the human body has 'energy' that has not been identified elsewhere in the universe, cannot be measured and for which there is no proof, the onus is on you to show that such energy exists. 

Again,  I do not wish to criticize you or your faith.  I am criticizing your use of the word 'energy' when such a word is not justified. 

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 67,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Life after death
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2019, 20:02:10 »
I have spent the last two days trying to decide if I should respond to this post.  On the one hand, I don't wish to start a fight or debate with someone whose mind is already made up.  But on the other hand I cannot let such statements go unchallenged. 

So I decided to speak up (a few glasses of red wine may have helped - hic!).

You are correct that the human body possess energy:  mechanical, heat, electrical and electromagnetic come to mind.  Each of these types of energy is well known and well understood.  Each can be defined and measured.  The mechanisms by which one form of energy is transferred to another are all well understood.  So is the relationship between matter and energy.   


I am ok that you have 'faith'.  Let's agree that 'faith' means that you believe in something even though it cannot be proven (or disproven).  But if you are going to say the body has 'energy', that is a term that has a precise meaning.  It is something that can be measured and proven (or disproven). 

If you are suggesting that there exists some type of 'energy' that has not been defined, has not been shown to exist and possibly violates any number of laws of physics, well, that is wrong.  If your faith suggests that such a thing must exist, that is ok with me.  But please don't call it 'energy'.  Because that is not what it is.

You may be familiar with the expression "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".  If you wish to claim that the human body has 'energy' that has not been identified elsewhere in the universe, cannot be measured and for which there is no proof, the onus is on you to show that such energy exists. 

Again,  I do not wish to criticize you or your faith.  I am criticizing your use of the word 'energy' when such a word is not justified.

Ah, thanks Dave. There was no intent to be conveying some hidden form of the word energy, or leaving it open to interpretation. I was speaking plainly...instead of saying "has/is" energy, maybe I should've stuck with "possesses" energy only. I simply meant all of the components that cause involuntary actions of the body like heartbeats, digestion, etc. and the impulses in the brain--the firings...all electrical I suppose, but a form of energy.

I don't really know that I have faith anymore, so no fear of offense there either. I think I was just sharing a thought matter-of-factly.

I don't like hearing when others are struggling though. It saddens me, because I know what they’re going through. People can be firm in their non-belief or firm in their belief of whatever it may be, and I respect their positions. I've gone back and forth before, but I'd say a lot of it in the past was due to teenage/early life angst. This is different though. Aw well, c'est la vie. I just figured I'd open up the venue given a few comments/thoughts shared earlier.

Edit to add (this isn’t directed towards anyone, just a few afterthoughts):

It’s important that people aren’t looked down upon for either believing, or not believing, in what they do or don’t. There are many, many experiences each of us encounter which shape our thought processes, value-systems and personalities. Our morals and beliefs, no matter what they are, comfort us, give us strength and/or guide our behaviour, whether religious, atheist, agnostic...or other.

Obviously, don’t get me wrong though...religious fanaticism  (which yes, exists in *every* religion) isn’t something I tolerate. One’s beliefs doesn’t give them the right to be unnecessary assholes (non-believers included) in the name of whatever and infringe on the rights of others...but that’s an entirely different topic.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 06:24:29 by BeyondTheNow »
~ "Don't do the dumb." ~

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2019, 20:14:34 »
All very scientific - so, I looked up what a physicist had to say,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAdXtadaFB4

I'm not a scientist. But, speaking only for myself,  you cannot be near the new dead without feeling something.

Offline NotSoWiseKingSolomon

  • Guest
  • *
  • 645
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3
Re: Life after death
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2019, 21:59:10 »
I believe in life after death as promised by the One True Church of Christ, the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/new-research-confirms-life-after-death.html

"Until now, scientists have been almost universally skeptical of these claims, which are based on anecdotal evidence and often veer into decidedly flaky New Age realms.

But now two reputable British scientists have subjected these experiences to scientific investigation and their conclusions are mind-expanding: Human consciousness exists independently of the physical state of the body and brain.

In research due to be published next year in Resuscitation, the journal of the European Resuscitation Council, Peter Fenwick, a consultant neuropsychiatrist of the British Institute of Psychiatry, and Sam Parnia, a clinical research fellow and registrar at University Hospital, Southampton, will announce that consciousness exists independently of the brain, based on their interviews with 63 people who had survived an almost-fatal heart attack.

They discovered that seven had experienced the so-called near death experience. Of those, four qualified under the Grayson scale, the narrowly defined medical criteria for assessing the validity of near-death experiences.

The four survivors, who included three non-practising Anglicans and one lapsed Catholic, recounted feelings of peace and joy, heightened senses, encountering a mystical being and coming to "a point of no return."


Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 146,780
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,339
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Life after death
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2019, 02:05:50 »
I knew a guy with Terminal cancer. About 10 days before the cancer got him, he went into cardiac arrest. He was flatlined for 15 mins and then they got his heart re-started and he came back to life.

He recounted to me what he remembered of that 15 mins. He remembered being out of his body, watching the medical team. He remembered feeling peaceful and joyful and certainly not alone. he saw "something" that convinced him that there was unity in the universe- that we were all connected to everything and that we were effective eternal. He had difficulty putting it into words, but he no longer feared death after that experience and was absolutely certain that life continues, in another form. He died about a week later, but in his last week, he was happy.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, but his experience has deeply affected me, to this day.

Offline NavyHopeful

  • Member
  • ****
  • 5,285
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 129
Re: Life after death
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2019, 02:59:25 »
I grew up in a mixed bag of beliefs (Great-grandfather was a Baptist minister, Dad is an atheist, Mom is a Jehovah's witness, step-dad is Catholic, etc.) so when the time came for me to enter my religion onto my military docs, I put NRE.  It isn't that I don't have a belief in God.  I just don't have any faith in human beings as a mass group.  If there is anything that chapters upon chapters of history has shown me is that someone always believes that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and the right will stop at nothing to convert everyone else to their philosophy.  It doesn't matter whether it is religious, cultural, or even political.  The "Us against them" mentality has become a way of life for too many of our species, and goes against EVERY moral teaching that every religion is supposed to teach.

Does everyone remember the Golden Rule?  We all should have learned it as children.  It is Rule Number One for almost EVERY religion on this planet.  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  Or for the plain-worded, like myself, "Treat others the way you would want to be treated."

I don't care if someone identifies as Catholic, Muslim, or Atheist just like I don't care is someone identifies as LGBTQ.  My main concern comes down to the "Is this person a good person" test.  If I am treated with respect, I give it back in full.  If you treat me like I am a piece of trash, I will still give you a modicum of respect, but I will not go out of my way to make your life better than mine.

As for the beliefs of some regarding the after-life, I wish ?I could take solace in the beliefs that I will live forever, or that I'll be surrounded by everyone I love.  The only control I have over anything is the path my life takes NOW.  I could spend a lifetime WAITING to get into the "Kingdom of Heaven" or I could make my own heaven while I'm still here.  Nothing will be perfect, because humans are not perfect, but I don't envision my version of heaven being anything more than me being around my children, and being the best father to them that I can be.  To me, Heaven is not a place, it is a state of mind and level of heart.  And every day I thank whatever God there is (whether God exists or not is irrelevant to this, by the way) that I was blessed with my children, and that someone trusted me to guide these kids into who they can be as they grow up.

They say that prejudices and hatred aren't born, they are taught.  I agree with this, and add that as long as a person follows what is good and right in their heart, they will almost always be a good person.  Treat others with respect, look out for one another, and don't blindly judge someone for what they did or did not do.  Be the better person and do the right thing, no matter what everyone else will say because in the end, you are the only person you have to answer to, and you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know the truth.

Live well, my friends.

Rev

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 11:13:01 »
Woman resuscitated from cardiac arrest says heaven is real.

Paramedic says: "I was a witness to a miracle."
https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/tattoo-viral-real-message-heaven

Ever wonder why no one who is resuscitated comes back and says Hell is real, don't do what I have done?  :)

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 67,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Life after death
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 11:30:55 »
Woman resuscitated from cardiac arrest says heaven is real.

Paramedic says: "I was a witness to a miracle."
https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/tattoo-viral-real-message-heaven

Ever wonder why no one who is resuscitated comes back and says Hell is real, don't do what I have done?  :)

There are several documented accounts of just that actually...

Edit to add: Meaning that MM insinuated that no one reports life-after-death experiences involving Hell. I pointed out that they are indeed documented and those who’ve experienced them feel just as strongly about their validity as those who have experienced life-after-death instances involving Heaven.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 18:28:51 by BeyondTheNow »
~ "Don't do the dumb." ~

Offline Cloud Cover

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 38,430
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,078
Re: Life after death
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 17:55:31 »
Sure. Here’s one: you die and for some reason you see you are heading to a place where your credit card broken adult kids move back in.   Run that heartbeat back to full throttle.
Living the lean life

Offline cld617

  • Member
  • ****
  • 4,625
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 114
Re: Life after death
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2019, 18:26:15 »
I am ok that you have 'faith'.  Let's agree that 'faith' means that you believe in something even though it cannot be proven (or disproven).

I think it's important to point out the flaw in this sentence. Until something can be shown to be true it requires faith to accept it, rejection however of that same thing is not faith based. There is zero faith requirement to reject it, and I think it does a disservice to suggest otherwise.

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2019, 19:28:07 »
Meaning that MM insinuated that no one reports life-after-death experiences involving Hell.

I was joking about something I read in the paper.

"...woman who was shocked back to life five times, described seeing heaven and Jesus."

Even put a  :) and a cartoon.

I pointed out that they are indeed documented and those who’ve experienced them feel just as strongly about their validity as those who have experienced life-after-death instances involving Heaven.

I learn something new every day on here.  :)

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 67,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Life after death
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2019, 19:37:00 »
I was joking about something I read in the paper.

"...woman who was shocked back to life five times, described seeing heaven and Jesus."

Even put a  :) and a cartoon.

I learn something new every day on here.  :)

Ok...? I clarified my own post based on what I interpreted of yours in order to avoid confusion about the intent of my initial words.
~ "Don't do the dumb." ~

Online FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 196,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,296
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Life after death
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 20:16:42 »
Most of you who know me know that I'm a professed atheist. Let me simply say I'm skeptical about any anecdotal revelations of near death experiences with some putative afterlife. Documenting anecdotes is not research.

Two years ago I had the misfortune of having a back injury that required some serious surgery. On the day of the operation I went through a pre-op process and was wheeled into the operating theatre just after 08:00 am. Drips were hooked up to venous catheters on the back of my hands and after a short struggle with my gag reflex, the anesthetist managed to get a tube down my throat and within seconds everything went black. A "few seconds" later I woke up and found myself in the post-op room where the clock on the wall said 5:00 pm. I'd been under for over eight hours where I had felt nothing, heard nothing, dreamed nothing and experienced nothing (thankfully).

IMHO people who profess experiencing some near-death visions are either fabricating the event or are still experiencing, even if only for a fraction of the time, some form of active dream state influenced by their religious beliefs.

My experience wasn't a near death one, just one under properly controlled anaesthesia but it left me convinced that when your consciousness and sensation are suppressed (as they would be in death) there is simply no awareness.

Man! This is a morbid topic.

:coffee:!

+300
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2019, 20:28:30 »
"The Emerald Piper, that's our Hell. It's an Irish bar where every day is St. Patrick's Day for ever."  :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbfji5eozAo

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 67,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Life after death
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2019, 20:33:16 »
Most of you who know me know that I'm a professed atheist. Let me simply say I'm skeptical about any anecdotal revelations of near death experiences with some putative afterlife. Documenting anecdotes is not research.

Two years ago I had the misfortune of having a back injury that required some serious surgery. On the day of the operation I went through a pre-op process and was wheeled into the operating theatre just after 08:00 am. Drips were hooked up to venous catheters on the back of my hands and after a short struggle with my gag reflex, the anesthetist managed to get a tube down my throat and within seconds everything went black. A "few seconds" later I woke up and found myself in the post-op room where the clock on the wall said 5:00 pm. I'd been under for over eight hours where I had felt nothing, heard nothing, dreamed nothing and experienced nothing (thankfully).

IMHO people who profess experiencing some near-death visions are either fabricating the event or are still experiencing, even if only for a fraction of the time, some form of active dream state influenced by their religious beliefs.

My experience wasn't a near death one, just one under properly controlled anaesthesia but it left me convinced that when your consciousness and sensation are suppressed (as they would be in death) there is simply no awareness.

Man! This is a morbid topic.

:coffee:!

Thanks for sharing FJAG.

My own feeling is that I don’t know that it’s a fair comparison, though, to assume that the brain is operating the same way under anesthesia as it would be when someone is in a state of dying, or has been pronounced deceased. (Need a dr. to verify though ;D) To me, it’s precisely the fact that specific brain functions/awareness has been artificially suppressed that it might inhibit any sort of similar experience as a near-death episode.

I’ve been put completely under 4 times, as well as in complete respiratory arrest 2 times during my life. In all instances I’ve never had any sort of ‘experience’ to warrant any belief either way. I certainly agree with your description. Time didn’t exist...hours flew by in what felt like seconds. The most I recall in a couple of the instances is dizziness before feeling/seeing nothing until I was awake again.

Anyway, I’m not a medical professional by any means. But my understanding from what I’ve read here and there is that even though the brain is shutting down during death, it’s not the same as a completely functioning brain under anesthesia, so I don’t know that one set of conditions is equal in what’s possible compared to the other set of conditions.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 20:40:37 by BeyondTheNow »
~ "Don't do the dumb." ~

Online FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 196,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,296
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Life after death
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2019, 21:36:02 »
Holy crap. One time under general was enough for me, thank you very much.

Just to carry on with the morbidity, I do believe that, depending on the event, different body parts shut down at different rates. I think that it takes the brain about three to six minutes to "die" when the blood stops circulating (although it may be only thirty to forty seconds before brain activity stops). Either way the whole idea of beheading (whether by sword, ax or guillotine) makes my skin crawl. Other organs can take up to twelve hours to "die".

Accordingly, I can easily see that there is a period of time where the brain stays active after the heart has stopped and that during this process thoughts may occur that might be remembered in the event that timely resuscitation occurs.

As an aside I'm a great fan of the old TV series "Dead Like Me". I always thought Mandy Patinkin and Ellen Muth turned in priceless performances as the "undead grim reapers" assigned by head office (by way of post-it notes) to shepherd the souls of those who die by external influences to whatever their particular afterlife portal may be. You can access the two seasons of the series on Crave TV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Like_Me

https://www.crave.ca/tv-shows/dead-like-me

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 21:41:15 by FJAG »
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline BeyondTheNow

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 67,380
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,140
Re: Life after death
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2019, 21:53:57 »
Holy crap. One time under general was enough for me, thank you very much.

Just to carry on with the morbidity, I do believe that, depending on the event, different body parts shut down at different rates. I think that it takes the brain about three to six minutes to "die" when the blood stops circulating (although it may be only thirty to forty seconds before brain activity stops). Either way the whole idea of beheading (whether by sword, ax or guillotine) makes my skin crawl. Other organs can take up to twelve hours to "die".

Accordingly, I can easily see that there is a period of time where the brain stays active after the heart has stopped and that during this process thoughts may occur that might be remembered in the event that timely resuscitation occurs.

As an aside I'm a great fan of the old TV series "Dead Like Me". I always thought Mandy Patinkin and Ellen Muth turned in priceless performances as the "undead grim reapers" assigned by head office (by way of post-it notes) to shepherd the souls of those who die by external influences to whatever their particular afterlife portal may be. You can access the two seasons of the series on Crave TV.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Like_Me

https://www.crave.ca/tv-shows/dead-like-me

 :cheers:

<chuckle>I don’t blame you. The circumstances surrounding each time were thoroughly unenjoyable.

That’s fantastic—I loved that show! It’s really too bad it was on such a short time. I enjoy dark humour and thought their tackling of very complicated issues through the type of humour they did was very creative. (I liked Six Feet Under very much also. Although their dealing of death and such wasn’t as humuorous, it still had its moments and it was all in all extremely creative.) And of course, I’ve been a fan of Patinkin since Montoya ;)

All in all, I find the brain very fascinating. Also, as equally fascinating are the ways in which humans are affected in different ways and how we draw conclusions through our experiences. Regardless of what I do or don’t believe, I’ve always enjoyed when people share their thoughts on heavier or “morbid” topics.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 21:57:10 by BeyondTheNow »
~ "Don't do the dumb." ~

Offline Target Up

    ........pull, patch, and score.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 223,995
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,844
  • that's how we roll in redneck land
Re: Life after death
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2019, 22:47:38 »
When I was 14 I died for a minute and a half when my airway slammed shut from a penicillin reaction. There was nothing.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

“In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger; stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature with hard-favor'd rage.”

 Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and start slitting throats

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2019, 23:52:51 »
Accordingly, I can easily see that there is a period of time where the brain stays active after the heart has stopped and that during this process thoughts may occur that might be remembered in the event that timely resuscitation occurs.

That period of time is longer now than it was years ago. When I hired on, CPR was just a railroad.

Now, with Advanced Cardiac Life Support ( ACLS ), defibrillation and drugs administered, the resuscitation effort may go on for a long time and the brain will take longer to die than it did years ago.

So, there could be all sorts of things going through their minds. Or, perhaps nothing.



« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 00:09:59 by mariomike »

Offline Pieman

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 9,270
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,049
Re: Life after death
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2019, 02:16:02 »
Speaking as a scientist, I think it is important to point out that we do have a very limited understanding of the universe. When you do look at models of the universe they are relatively simple approximations of reality and ultimately fragile.

Although I would never subscribe to a religion there are a number of scientific avenues where communication, existence, and connection do exist in very strange ways. 'Spooky action at a distance' still melts my brain where it can only be explained by higher dimensions...and not fully proven theories.

On top of that, I have seen too much death and felt the presence of those who passed to dismiss the experiences. They could be my subconscious creating images and situations to help me deal with grief (which may be an evolved coping mechanism common to us all), or it may be genuine.

I don't think there is a plan, and we are not special in any way from any other life form (on Earth or otherwise).

When you think about it, why are we so unbelievably distraught when a loved one passes? Is there an evolutionary mechanism that makes this brutal emotion important for survival? I don't see it, if one is there.




Graffiti in regimental toilet stalls: The official guide to troop moral....apparently.

“Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything.” - Professor Farnsworth

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2019, 15:43:32 »
When you think about it, why are we so unbelievably distraught when a loved one passes? Is there an evolutionary mechanism that makes this brutal emotion important for survival? I don't see it, if one is there.

The grieving process is healthy and natural.

Gets complicated for individuals unable to pass through it.

Online FJAG

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 196,165
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,296
  • Ex Gladio Justicia
    • Google Sites Wolf Riedel
Re: Life after death
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2019, 15:55:30 »
The grieving process is healthy and natural.

Gets complicated for individuals unable to pass through it.

I think it's an extension or byproduct of the relationships we build; whether familial or friendships. These are people we like being around and when they go we feel a loss. I think for most of us grieving is a matter of degree (and I think involves pets and even inanimate objects) based on how attached we were to the person etc during our lifetime.

You're right. It's when you can't move on that the problems start.

 :cheers:
Illegitimi non carborundum
Semper debeatis percutis ictu primo
Access my "Allies" and "Mark Winters, CID" book series at:
https://sites.google.com/view/wolfriedel
Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/WolfRiedelAuthor/

Offline mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 506,690
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,382
    • The job.
Re: Life after death
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2019, 16:27:51 »
These are people we like being around and when they go we feel a loss.  :cheers:

Because they remind us of the good old days:)

"A phrase used by old people. It is a signal to young people to get the hell out."