Author Topic: Meanwhile back at the perpetually offended tent/Infidel tattoo questions  (Read 10225 times)

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Online Halifax Tar

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If the same tattoo, in the same shape, said frig Christ, would you all be okay with it?  Can I have that tattooed on my forearm?  and walk around in public?  Just asking

I think I, like most, wouldnt really care. 

If we, on the forum, are an appropriate cross section of Canadian society then I would surmise very few of us are actually practicing any religion and are probably more closely tied with being agnostic or atheist.

I never understood why some folks like to throw the Christian thing back.  Christianity is dying, western society has moved beyond its shackles and confines, IMHO. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 07:52:54 by Halifax Tar »
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Online Halifax Tar

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And there are also many Muslims that we were fighting alongside, in the ANA. There are Muslims serving in our own ranks. There are Muslims in the ranks of countries we are allied with.

Pretending the tattoo is anything other than a middle finger to Islam is silly, so let’s dispense with the notion. It is what it is. I remember when the infidel shirts and hats and patches got cool for a while at the height of the global war on terror. Nobody expects aggressive young men in their twenties to be the pinnacle of taste, and that’s fine. A tattoo though? Really?

The question then is does or could it reflect poorly on the CAF. The sailor in question will, I’m sure, have a definitive answer in due course and I suspect he won’t like it. Given the dress regs covering tattoos that I posted earlier, at that juncture the individual will probably have no excuse any better than “yup, I was in fact that dumb”. When we join the CAF we choose to know and to follow its rules.

You cant just dismiss a factual counter argument. You are essentially moving the goal posts.

The fact remains that Infidel is defined as a unfaithful.  It comes from Latin word infidelis.  If someone artificially conflates with Islam then they obviously didnt take the time to gain an understanding of our language.

The hilarity to me is the person who reported this is either a) offended by the word infidel, b) offended by the firearm shape of the tattoo; or c) both.  But he doesn't seem to take issue with the fact the phone he used take this picture was made in some 3rd world crap-hole and the workers we paid pennies. 

Some peoples kids I tell ya.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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This is why I'm a big proponent of "sleeves down"  8) at all times.

1.  I hate rolling sleeves and think it looks stupid and sloppy.
2.  If you do have some ink, it's covered. It's one less thing someone can give you grief about.

Btw, not even close to the worst tattoo I've seen in the Forces.  My fav one was K.A.T. tattooed in big black letters on both arms of a Corporal which stood for "Kill All Taliban"



« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 08:16:28 by Humphrey Bogart »

Online mariomike

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And if you are a civi you can have whatever you want.....

I've never felt the need to get a tattoo. So, I'm not savvy on them.

But, there is a policy where I used to work, "Tattoos depicting nudity, obscenity, racial, sexual, political or social bias must be covered."

Long-sleeve shirts in July and August.

In station, this is also required when visitors (non Department members) are present.

Which is a big step forward from the not so distant past when ALL tattoos had to be covered.

And, that's with a union. AFTER you get hired. After you are off probation.

Quote
Non-union workplace

The answer on hiring is simple and straightforward – an employer can legally choose not to hire based on any (visible) tattoos or piercings. There would be no violation of the Human Rights Act and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not relevant. This simple statement applies whether it is a unionized workplace or a union free workplace

Here there are no legal restrictions on prohibitions by employers against tattoos and piercings. Simply put the employer's rights are as broad as noted above with respect to hiring.
http://www.mondaq.com/canada/x/460616/employee+rights+labour+relations/Can+An+Employer+Prohibit+Tattoos+And+Piercings
The situation is more complicated after an employee has been hired. Here the employer's rights differ greatly depending on whether it is a unionized workplace or a non-union workplace.




« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 10:33:25 by mariomike »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Imagine the confusion if the fellow had PRIDE tattooed on his arm.
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Offline cld617

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I think this does a better job of highlighting issues in our regulations more than anything, that we can be punished for blasphemy.

Offline PuckChaser

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Imagine the confusion if the fellow had PRIDE tattooed on his arm.

As long as it doesn't say white pride, its fine.

Offline Cloud Cover

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https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/raising-middle-finger-is-relays-information-judge-rules-in-case-of-man-accused-of-breaching-no-contact-order                                                                                                                                     


The above might be helpful in understanding that in the view of the law, giving the middle finger or even a cold, hard stare can amount to an intimidating communication, as long as there is intent. Bear in mind that in respect of human rights law or Charter cases (both non-Criminal), the standard of proof is much lower and onus is on the accused/respondent to establish that no offence was intended against a complainant or any particular group.

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Some interesting observations to draw away from the Iman's interview, wouldn't you agree MM?




After deleting his tweet (comment about deleting the tweet seemed rather flippant) Mr Rob Hutten locked up his account.

I guess trying to doxx a CAF member with a 13 year old tattoo done up to deal with getting blown up, losing friends and some PTSD rubbed some people the wrong way.
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Online mariomike

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Some interesting observations to draw away from the Iman's interview, wouldn't you agree MM?

Reply #39 was news article regarding the Original Post.

It was posted without comment.

Offline Jarnhamar

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So what did you think of the article?
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Online mariomike

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So what did you think of the article?

Like I said, Jarnhamar,

Reply #39 was news article regarding the Original Post.

It was posted without comment.

Why do reporters screw themselves when they make stupid comments like "tattoo in the shape of an AK47 Assault Rifle. These idiots wouldn't know an AK if someone butt stroke him.

If anyone has a bone to pick with the article in Reply #39 , the reporter's name and e-mail is at the top.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 19:54:00 by mariomike »

Offline Brad Sallows

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Once upon a time we had a round of discussions that ended with "let's not post articles without comment".  What happened to that?
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Online mariomike

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Once upon a time we had a round of discussions that ended with "let's not post articles without comment".  What happened to that?

Ok. If you feel that strongly about it.

Article removed.

Lots of articles get posted without comment - or complaint,
https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,130548.msg1573931/topicseen.html#new

Do you have a reference?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 00:39:44 by mariomike »

Offline Brihard

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According to social media member was in Afghanistan in the Army and was involved in a IED attack that killed friends, apparently the tattoo was an attempt to deal with his PTSD sometime later CT'd to the navy. He regrets the tattoo.

I’ll buy that, and am a hell of a lot more sympathetic given those particulars. I hope he’s doing better these days, that’s some pretty awful crap to carry.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Gimli

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the trendy infidel fashion thing come about by embracing insults?   Not factoring in how the word was used historically, these days some Muslims use it as a condemning word.  However some non Muslims now use it as a badge of honour. 

Similar to American Republicans embracing “Deplorable".  Black people taking ownership of the N word.  And if I’m not mistaken, “Christian" was originally used in a derogatory manner. 

For some reason this seems to be viewed differently.  I am contemplating why.

Offline Brihard

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the trendy infidel fashion thing come about by embracing insults?   Not factoring in how the word was used historically, these days some Muslims use it as a condemning word.  However some non Muslims now use it as a badge of honour. 

Similar to American Republicans embracing “Deplorable".  Black people taking ownership of the N word.  And if I’m not mistaken, “Christian" was originally used in a derogatory manner. 

For some reason this seems to be viewed differently.  I am contemplating why.

Quite likely. That notwithstanding, how would the CAF see it if a member of African descent had an N-bomb visibly tattooed on their arm, exposed while in uniform? I’m sure we can think of other slurs too that would fit analogous circumstances.

We’re speaking here within the limited context of the display, while in uniform, of tattoos that could potentially bring the CAF into disrepute. It’s not unreasonable for CAF to keep a grip on this just as any other employer can. It’s just one of many instances where the free expression of CAF member’s is subject to some limitations.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the trendy infidel fashion thing come about by embracing insults?   Not factoring in how the word was used historically, these days some Muslims use it as a condemning word.  However some non Muslims now use it as a badge of honour. 

Similar to American Republicans embracing “Deplorable".  Black people taking ownership of the N word.  And if I’m not mistaken, “Christian" was originally used in a derogatory manner. 

For some reason this seems to be viewed differently.  I am contemplating why.

You aren’t wrong. Many folks were wearing Infidels badges, hats, shirts, and apparently tattoos. We were often referred to as “Infidels”, by the very folks who wanted to kill us. I remember seeing baby onesies with “little Infidel” printed on them.

I’m sorry but I think this whole thing is stupid, one guy sees an opportunity to smear the military and he jumped all over it. We have to stop giving these assholes their 15 mins of fame.
 
 

Online mariomike

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I figured you posted it because something there in caught your eye.

I posted it because it was relevant to the discussion.

I was genuinely curious about your thoughts in the article.

I don't know what I could possibly add. I don't have a tattoo. The meaning of the word "infidel" has already been explained by yourself and others. The last CAF rifle I fired was an FN.

The chain of command is investigating. I am sure someone will post the results - if they are made public.










Offline Jarnhamar

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Sorry MM you caught me cross posting/editing.

I posted it because it was relevant to the discussion.

100 %
I actually thought it was a great article to post which highlighted some underlying problems. Not so much about the ak47 comment but the subtle accusations of possible violence from the CAF member and accusations and assumptions of ignorance.

Quote
I don't know what I could possibly add. I don't have a tattoo. The meaning of the word "infidel" has already been explained by yourself and others. The last CAF rifle I fired was an FN.


Let's get you a tattoo and go shooting an AR-15. 
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Online mariomike

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Let's get you a tattoo and go shooting an AR-15.

I'll add that to my bucket list.  :)

Loved that branding iron scene in Jarhead.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Why was post #39 edited? Now we've got half a page of discussion with no reference?

Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Brad Sallows

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>Lots of articles get posted without comment - or complaint,

The only one I saw at the direct link was from FJAG, but a quotation was extracted.

Policy here is to avoid copying-and-pasting large articles; a link with nothing to indicate any particular point of interest is the other extreme.  I - and probably many others - have not enough time in the day to read everything, and I doubt the articles which are linked are necessarily the most balanced or authoritative takes on a matter rather than whatever the poster has found that most reinforces one point of view.  If an article makes some relevant points, snip them out and past them with the link; or, add a couple of sentences describing what might be of interest or recapitulating what you believe the article adds to the discussion.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Online mariomike

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; a link with nothing to indicate any particular point of interest is the other extreme. 

I felt the included title was descriptive enough,
Quote
Halifax mosque leader on infidel tattoo: ‘might be on his hand, it might not be in his heart’

Guess it wasn't. I had nothing to add.  So, I removed my post.

If an article makes some relevant points, snip them out and past them with the link;

ok. I usually do. I should have put more than just the title,

Quote
“Open arms, no problem,” Khan said. “We would host him in our mosque. We would sit and have dinner with him and see what’s happening and put things in perspective. Let bygones be bygones.”

« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 11:09:03 by mariomike »

Offline milnews.ca

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A bit more, from both the CAF & the original Twitter-er, shared under the usual caveats ...
Quote
The Royal Canadian Navy says it has confirmed the identity of a sailor who was singled out on social media for his tattoo featuring the word "infidel" in the shape of a rifle.

Maj. Mark Gough of Maritime Forces Atlantic said late Friday afternoon that as a result, "the chain of command is investigating the matter further." He provided no other details.

Earlier, he said the navy received word about the tattoo from a Forces member who noticed a tweet from a Halifax coffee shop customer Tuesday and sent it to his superiors.

A photo in the tweet shows only a man's arm with the tattoo as he waits in line to be served. The tweet identified the man as being in uniform and wearing an HMCS Fredericton ball cap.

Gough said the military is concerned by any action or behaviour by a Forces member that would demonstrate intolerance or disrespect and is obligated to look into the circumstances.

"Some folks were offended by the tattoo," he said. "In this case, because it could be interpreted as being offensive to a certain culture, then we obviously have to look into it."

Gough said the issue will at some point be sent to the military's legal branch to determine whether any possible repercussions are warranted.

The Canadian Armed Forces does have dress instructions related to body tattoos and piercing. "Members are not to acquire any tattoos that are visible on the head, face or ears," the rules state.

"Additionally, members shall not acquire tattoos that are visible either in military uniform or in civilian clothing that could be deemed to be offensive (e.g., pornographic, blasphemous, racist or containing vulgar language or design) or otherwise reflect discredit on the CAF."

The tweet by Rob Hutten, which was taken down Friday afternoon, said: "Saw a navy guy in Tim's today in uniform & HMCS Fredericton hat sporting a huge 'INFIDEL' tattoo on his right arm, stylized in the shape of a machine gun. The message is clear, and scary as hell."

Reached for comment Friday, Hutten said he was offended by the tattoo and felt he had to publicize it because it was on the arm of an Armed Forces member. Hutten said he didn't talk to the man, who was standing with a couple of his friends at the time.

He said he has since been told by two people on Twitter that the sailor was the victim of an improvised explosive device in Afghanistan and got the tattoo because he was angry at the time.

"I have no hard feelings about this guy if he's not an Islamaphobe," Hutten said. "I don't want him fired, but he shouldn't be wearing that tattoo in public."
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