Author Topic: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents  (Read 5557 times)

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Offline kratz

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Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« on: June 18, 2019, 18:45:54 »
ref: CBC.ca

This is what happens when we are reduced to being seen in our community at their pleasure / comfort.

Quote
Controversial armoured vehicle to be set up in Sackville Memorial Park, upsets residents
While residents agree veterans deserve to be commemorated, some worry the armoured vehicle glorifies war

A Sackville group is opposing the installation of a second armoured fighting vehicle in the town's memorial park.

The retired armoured fighting vehicle, known as a Cougar AVGP, was given to the town from the 8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise's) regiment. Sackville town council voted to accept the gift in February and plans to install the armoured vehicle in the Sackville Memorial Park this summer.

But people living in the neighbourhood said they weren't aware of the new addition until workers started prepping a corner of the park for a concrete pad that will house the six-wheeled armoured vehicle.

The park already features an armoured vehicle called a Ferret, a six metre cenotaph with plaques memorializing local soldiers who died in previous wars, a propeller and an anchor.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2019, 19:01:32 »
We had a Lancaster bomber on display for 33 years in Coronation Park at the waterfront, near the CNE.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2019, 19:02:34 »
Those people really are something else.
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Online FSTO

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2019, 20:14:59 »
There is a Firefly tank parked by the town hall in Minnedosa MB for god knows how long. AFAIK there has never been a case of someone getting hurt playing on the damn thing.

I'm more and more convinced that we need a meteor to sort this planet out. We are long past due for one.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2019, 20:49:46 »
Is there a Liberal arts program in or around Sackville?
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2019, 21:24:16 »
This really surprised me considering that, by and large, Halifax (and surrounding communities) are extremely supportive of the CAF.
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Offline kratz

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2019, 21:26:46 »
This really surprised me considering that, by and large, Halifax (and surrounding communities) are extremely supportive of the CAF.

Read the article ... Sackville NB.  :whistle:
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2019, 21:37:10 »
The types of (assumingly, ill-informed) people who are offended are probably the same types of (assumingly, ill-informed) people who support things like the white poppy movement.  ::)
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2019, 22:15:14 »
I guess they are worried kids might fall off it,

Quote
Sackville’s obligations

“What we would request from Sackville is a concrete pad,” he said, “so the vehicle doesn’t sink down into the mud.”

Lockyer said the regiment would also require the town to paint the Cougar every five or six years and sign an agreement exempting the Department of National Defence from liability for any injuries associated with the display.
https://warktimes.com/2019/02/08/canadian-regiment-seeks-to-donate-armoured-military-vehicle-to-sackville-memorial-park/

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2019, 22:37:54 »
Is there a Liberal arts program in or around Sackville?

Looks like it lol

Quote
A liberal arts and sciences education from Mount Allison will teach you important skills that can help you thrive, both personally and professionally, in today's ever-changing world.


I wonder if being offended by imperialist displays of anything military related is a course they offer in that degree.

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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2019, 23:21:23 »
We used to politely tell people like this to STFU. Now we elect them.
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2019, 23:51:44 »
ref: CBC.ca

This is what happens when we are reduced to being seen in our community at their pleasure / comfort.

It seems that the city council failed 'Public Consultation 101'  :nod:
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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2019, 01:18:49 »
It seems that the city council failed 'Public Consultation 101'  :nod:

There wasn't a lot of time taken to consider the issue by this particular city council.  With the offer being made at the meeting on 4 Feb 2019 they decided to consider it at their next meeting one week later. (The Sackville council only meets twice a month, the first and second Monday of each month)


https://sackville.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/03-Minutes-Special-Meeting-of-Council-February-4-2019.pdf
Quote
Public Special Meeting of Council, Public Reports and Staff Reports – 7:00 p.m.
1. Presentation – 8th Canadian Hussars
Jim Lockyer, Honorary Colonel 8th Canadian Hussars spoke of the close association with the Town of Sackville and that the Regimental Band of the 8th Canadian Hussars was based in Sackville. The Regiment has procured a retired AFV known as a Cougar AVGP and would like to offer it to the Town as a monument to the members of the Regiment who served and were from the Sackville area. Members of Council were very appreciative of the offer. A motion will be presented at the February 11, 2019 Regular Council Meeting for Council to consider the acceptance of this donation.

And some public consultation was proposed at the city council meeting but the motion was defeated.

https://sackville.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Council-Meeting-Minutes-for-February-11-2019.pdf
Quote
#19-017 MOVED BY COUNCILLOR BILL EVANS AND SECONDED BY COUNCILLOR JOYCE O’NEIL COUNCIL ACCEPT THE GIFT FROM THE 8TH CANADIAN HUSSARS OF A RETIRED ARMOURED FIGHTING VEHICLE KNOWN AS A COUGAR, WITH THE TOWN PROVIDING THE NECESSARY CONCRETE PAD TO ACCOMMODATE ITS INSTALLATION IN MEMORIAL PARK AND AUTHORIZE THE MAYOR AND CLERK TO SIGN AND SEAL A LIABILITY AGREEMENT…..

Following a brief discussion, #19-018 MOVED BY COUNCILLOR SHAWN MESHEAU AND SECONDED BY COUNCILLOR BRUCE PHINNEY THAT COUNCIL POSTPONE THE MOTION REGARDING THE GIFT FROM THE 8TH CANADIAN HUSSARS, UNTIL MARCH TO OBTAIN FURTHER INFORMATION. AYE VOTES WERE RECORDED FROM COUNCILLOR SHAWN MESHEAU AND COUNCILLOR BRUCE PHINNEY. NAY VOTES WERE RECORDED FROM COUNCILLOR ALLISON BUTCHER, COUNCILLOR ANDREW BLACK, COUNCILLOR JOYCE O’NEIL AND COUNCILLOR BILL EVANS. MOTION DEFEATED.

Council then returned to the original Motion; #19-019 MOVED BY COUNCILLOR BILL EVANS AND SECONDED BY COUNCILLOR JOYCE O’NEIL COUNCIL ACCEPT THE GIFT FROM THE 8TH CANADIAN HUSSARS OF A RETIRED ARMOURED FIGHTING VEHICLE KNOWN AS A COUGAR, WITH THE TOWN PROVIDING THE NECESSARY CONCRETE PAD TO ACCOMMODATE ITS INSTALLATION IN MEMORIAL PARK AND AUTHORIZE THE MAYOR AND CLERK TO SIGN AND SEAL A LIABILITY AGREEMENT. MOTION CARRIED.

The entire process took less than ten minutes https://youtu.be/ciGCVMh_I-w?t=1859 (from 31:00 to 40:10) and actually included brief comment from one councillor that suggested some citizens may have objections and with another councillor reminding the body that there were such public objections when the scout car was put into the park.
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2019, 01:40:30 »
Hi: we would welcome the aforementioned vehicle, and any other similar vehicles, aircraft and related display items, in Armstrong, British  Columbia, CANADA. (the last word being spelled exactly the same as the shoulder flash worn by the people who served this country so that others apparently have the right to act like snowflakes).
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2019, 11:29:20 »
Taxpayers, users and citizens that use the park have a right to voice their opinion on what they want in local parks and city property. We haven't gone completely communist in this country yet.

That's why we have elections and the right to vote and express our opinions, without fear of reprisal. Or seemingly, used to.

If the anti voice is strong enough and a majority, they can change it. If not, majority rules.

That alone though does not discount those peopes right to form and support a position, that may not be popular. Not everyone loves a warrior.

What I find comical are all the people that are screaming about this, have never been or will never ever be in Sackville, NB but still feel it ok to impose their fundamentals on those that actually live there.

I'm the last person to say no to armour being displayed. The more the merrier. However, to suggest people are, stupid, unpatriotic, anti military or whatever, because some actual residents voice a contrary opinion is both ludicrous and childish. Not to mention going against all the freedoms the crews of those callsigns fought for or guarded.

Free speech, as much as the current government disagrees, is still a fundemental right under our Charter of Rights.

As long as your intentions and beliefs are honourable, and don't impose unnecessarily on others, you are entitled to them. They need not be popular or have concensus, as long as they are thoughtful and truthful and can be explained.

Even the right is starting to get ignorant. I'm tired of "Shut up! You're wrong. Do as I say and as you're told".

We need to bring back dueling.😏
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2019, 11:46:42 »
And some public consultation was proposed at the city council meeting but the motion was defeated.

a.k.a. 'they blew it'  :nod:
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2019, 12:18:31 »
Quote from: Fishbone Jones
What I find comical are all the people that are screaming about this, have never been or will never ever be in Sackville, NB but still feel it ok to impose their fundamentals on those that actually live there.

What I find comical is the girl speaking on behalf of refugees and soldiers with PTSD, and, the doctor worrying that kids might fall off it. Won't anyone think of the children?  ;D

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2019, 12:32:14 »
, and, the doctor worrying that kids might fall off it.

Maybe that's why the donors are insisting the town, "sign an agreement exempting the Department of National Defence from liability for any injuries associated with the display."  :)

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2019, 13:17:47 »


Free speech, as much as the current government disagrees, is still a fundemental right under our Charter of Rights.



I agree with your statement as a whole; but I feel the need to point out that we do not have "Free Speech" in this country.  We have freedom of expression.  Pedantic, it could be argued.  But we need to learn to distance ourselves and our rights from those of our southern neighbors.

It could be argued that we, in fact, have nothing like free speech.
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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2019, 13:59:58 »
Some additional background to add to the discussion.

The presentation made to the Sackville Town Council by HCol Lockyer.
https://sackville.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Combined-Presentations.pdf

While the CBC link in the OP indicated that the outraged residents said they "were surprised" that the vehicle was coming to their neighbourhood and only became aware when they saw the construction of the concrete pad, there was some local media coverage of the offer to and acceptance by the town council back in February.  However, I can't speak to the readership of those sites and whether the issue was publicized so that residents would have seen the story beforehand.  Personally, since I no longer regularly read a "newspaper", I feel I sometimes have less awareness of events that may have happened across the street compared (such as in this story) to a relatively unimportant issue on the other side of the country.

https://warktimes.com/2019/02/08/canadian-regiment-seeks-to-donate-armoured-military-vehicle-to-sackville-memorial-park/

https://www.sackvilletribunepost.com/news/local/8th-canadian-hussars-donates-retired-armoured-military-vehicle-to-sackville-284725/

I may be reading too much into it, but there may be an ulterior motive to why the 8CH wanted Sackville as the location for the vehicle.

Quote
Lockyer said the regiment’s commanding officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Tom Peppard, would like to re-establish the relationship with Sackville with the gift of a Cougar.

“We would be delighted if we could open up a C Squardon once again in Sackville. We would be absolutely ecstatic if we could do that,” he said, adding however, that the only thing that would prevent it would be the need to find a location to replace the old armoury.

So, I'm skeptical that the primary motive is to establish a memorial to their regiment.  If it was, then wouldn't the cenotaph listing the names of the town's fallen and the "Memorial Park" (placed there in 1922 and updated for later wars) accomplish this already as well as the Ferret that was placed there in 1994 by the 8CH as a momento to their regiment.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 14:03:58 by Blackadder1916 »
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2019, 14:38:00 »
Taxpayers, users and citizens that use the park have a right to voice their opinion on what they want in local parks and city property. We haven't gone completely communist in this country yet.

That's why we have elections and the right to vote and express our opinions, without fear of reprisal. Or seemingly, used to.

If the anti voice is strong enough and a majority, they can change it. If not, majority rules.

That alone though does not discount those peopes right to form and support a position, that may not be popular. Not everyone loves a warrior.

What I find comical are all the people that are screaming about this, have never been or will never ever be in Sackville, NB but still feel it ok to impose their fundamentals on those that actually live there.

I'm the last person to say no to armour being displayed. The more the merrier. However, to suggest people are, stupid, unpatriotic, anti military or whatever, because some actual residents voice a contrary opinion is both ludicrous and childish. Not to mention going against all the freedoms the crews of those callsigns fought for or guarded.

Free speech, as much as the current government disagrees, is still a fundemental right under our Charter of Rights.

As long as your intentions and beliefs are honourable, and don't impose unnecessarily on others, you are entitled to them. They need not be popular or have concensus, as long as they are thoughtful and truthful and can be explained.

Even the right is starting to get ignorant. I'm tired of "Shut up! You're wrong. Do as I say and as you're told".

We need to bring back dueling.😏

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Offline Scott

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2019, 16:14:59 »
Jesus.

Moncton has a few tanks and nobody has done a header off of them, as far as I know - or they just didn't complain.

If you're worried about triggering people then you'd better drive up the road to Memramcook and rip out their rocket display.

And it's not as if 8CH doesn't have ties to the town - the armoury was right across from the post office until, what, the late 90s? 8CH makes a big effort to come to Sackville for Remembrance Day and the ceremony is right over by the current military displays.

I think opposition is in the minority, based on my talks with people from the town. Or strong indifference.
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Offline mariomike

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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2019, 17:09:38 »
Not wanting something in a public park or on display in any highly visible municipal area for, I don’t know, it being an eye-sore, or a safety hazard, or gawd knows what other benign reason people could possibly come up with is one thing—Yes, people have the right to complain—and, that, they surely do.

But I will gladly maintain that anyone who thinks displaying any sort of military vehicle, or paying tribute to a specific aspect of the military and/or its soldiers (or parades, or Remembrance Day ceremonies or whathaveyou) is in some way glorifying war, is undeniably ignorant, grossly uninformed and undeservingly selfish. It has nothing to do with rights.

Yes, obviously the conditions under which certain things are being observed and/or displayed is worth consideration. (ie. venues showcasing power, capability, latest technology or maneuverability of certain military weaponry/vehicles/machinery etc.) But this isn’t one of those types of instances.

Quote
"This modern armoured vehicle is a symbol of military violence and it does not serve as an appropriate memorial to those who served," Thomas said Wednesday in an interview.

Says who? Its presence can easily represent an abundance of different things to different people.

We don’t live in a “majority rules” society. We live in a ‘ye who complains the loudest gets what they want’ society.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 17:37:38 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Controversial vehicle - upsets residents
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2019, 18:44:29 »

Says who? Its presence can easily represent an abundance of different things to different people.


It does. No more or no less than your own representation. All hold equal weight until a decision by proper authorities and means says otherwise. What they do then, is make a decision based on factors presented. It still doesn't make the other opinions invalid, only less critical to the end result.

Of course that also has to be weighted to the opinion of those that live there and are affected, as opposed to those half way across the nation with no dog in the fight other than emotion to a news article.

I wonder how many will make the trip and address city council on behalf of all outraged Canadians as opposed to the residents that take their time to go to the city with there local concerns.

We have a country going down the toilet and this is what people spend their day bitching about.
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