Author Topic: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military  (Read 5872 times)

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Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2019, 02:05:15 »
Ballz,

To be clear, I was reacting to stellarpanther's comment. I actually have no opinion about the Cpl in the article that started this thread, as I do not have enough information to form one.

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2019, 14:01:26 »
This is entirely false. People can and do get charged all the time for improperly claiming things they are not entitled to. I have personally seen it happen. Ask the chief judge of the CAF about it: he is currently facing a court martial of his own for this very thing.

You, the member, are responsible for what you claim. Not the RMS clerk who processes the claim and not your CO who approves the claim. Pro tip: regardless of your rank and time in service, male an effort to understand CFTDIs and the CBIs. If you are not sure: ask. If you are really not sure: err on the safe side and don't claim it. Is your job worth a few bucks?

Maybe it does happen but in over 16 years, I have never seen a person charged.  As an example, when a mbr is authorized a rental car, they are to get a intermediate sized car.  I've seen more than a few come back trying to claim a SUV and a separate charge for a GPS which is not claimable.  One of them was picked up by an audit.  The only thing that I've seen happen is they are told they can't claim it and only get to claim the amount that a intermediate car would have cost.  If it was already paid out they pay back the difference.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2019, 14:55:55 »
Maybe it does happen but in over 16 years, I have never seen a person charged.  As an example, when a mbr is authorized a rental car, they are to get a intermediate sized car.  I've seen more than a few come back trying to claim a SUV and a separate charge for a GPS which is not claimable.  One of them was picked up by an audit.  The only thing that I've seen happen is they are told they can't claim it and only get to claim the amount that a intermediate car would have cost.  If it was already paid out they pay back the difference.

Fine. You have never personally seen anyone charged for it.

I am telling you that I have personally seen people charged and found guilty for it.

Which is all to say that the Cpl in question cannot necessarily tie his disciplinary issues over a claim to his "whistleblower" status. Being a hero in one situation does not give you a shield in other situations.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2019, 15:07:25 »
Maybe it does happen but in over 16 years, I have never seen a person charged.  As an example, when a mbr is authorized a rental car, they are to get a intermediate sized car.  I've seen more than a few come back trying to claim a SUV and a separate charge for a GPS which is not claimable.  One of them was picked up by an audit.  The only thing that I've seen happen is they are told they can't claim it and only get to claim the amount that a intermediate car would have cost.  If it was already paid out they pay back the difference.

Go on the Court Martial page, there are three Recent Decisions related to fraudulent expenses just from this year.

Offline stellarpanther

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2019, 17:40:41 »
Fine. You have never personally seen anyone charged for it.

I am telling you that I have personally seen people charged and found guilty for it.

Which is all to say that the Cpl in question cannot necessarily tie his disciplinary issues over a claim to his "whistleblower" status. Being a hero in one situation does not give you a shield in other situations.

Just to make sure were on the same page here, are you referring to a person making up a fraudulent CF52 claim saying that they paid for something and then stealing their WO's stamp and forging the signature and making it look like the claim was section 32'd and 34'd because that I've seen happen a few times and they were caught and charged as they should be or are you talking about a person who tries to claim the wrong size car or a claim a car that wasn't approved in advance because that I've also seen happen but not get charged because of it.

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2019, 17:48:34 »
Go on the Court Martial page, there are three Recent Decisions related to fraudulent expenses just from this year.

Sure wish we would get this serious about openly disobeying the local purchasing regulations.

But I have seen that too.
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2019, 18:15:37 »
I’m inclined to lean towards a sentiment mentioned earlier where rarely, at least in my experience during my PRes posting, will one ever see a combat arms Cpl (purposely and/or with the intent to deceive) trying to take advantage and claim things he/she isn’t entitled to. (I’ve encountered a few Sgts and above here and there though, in which case, yeah, the clerk tells them ‘no, sorry’ and that’s the end of that—Mostly—Sometimes an issue will get escalated to CClk so that they can be told “no” again...)

But anyway, they only vaguely know what they’re entitled to in a narrow field of circumstances. Meals during travel over certain time-periods, boots up to certain cost after tax, some are aware of TAA (but many aren’t), and many are even clueless about CLDA...

If there’s extensive travel required for a course or something, we usually have to tell them exactly what will be reimbursed, explicitly tell them what receipts and other paperwork they’ll need to hold onto, etc. (The majority of them don’t keep their DWAN active, let alone take time to familiarize themselves with CFTDTIs, know what they should be entitled to and why, and so on.) I’m also struggling with accepting that this Cpl knew enough about how to work the system in order to try and pull a fast one—I think he simply would’ve done what he was told to do. I’m prone to benefit of the doubt though... :dunno:

Of course I wasn’t there...’just my thoughts on one element of the situation as it was presented in the article.

WRT charges, I’ve also read about a few instances of pers getting charged related to claim entitlements/payouts. But the majority of the instances I’m aware of, again, involve those with the rank and/or knowledge/experience on how to proceed fraudulently. A Pte or Cpl? I’m sure examples exist somewhere, but they aren’t common.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 18:26:04 by BeyondTheNow »
If you suffered in life and don't mind other people suffering as you did because you,"turned out fine"; you did not, in fact, turn out fine.~D.S.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2019, 18:47:53 »
In the context of this story it looks like the cpls coc was looking for reasons to charge him. Common tactic to punish someone in a round about way.



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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2019, 19:09:03 »
In the context of this story it looks like the cpls coc was looking for reasons to charge him. Common tactic to punish someone in a round about way.

Yes, good point for those who haven’t read it.
If you suffered in life and don't mind other people suffering as you did because you,"turned out fine"; you did not, in fact, turn out fine.~D.S.

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2019, 19:17:34 »
Big difference between something being audited and found that something claimed wasn't allowed and the requirement for a CM.  I've been audited a few times, and sometimes it goes back and forth as to why you claimed something (ex they took off a meal because of a flight time but ignored the actual travel to the airport as per the itinerary, but spent a while sorting it out. In one case took an extra month for a fairly expensive claim to be paid out because I didn't claim the tip on a taxi)

The ones that I can remember from past court martials were things like people manufactured receipts for extra claims, or made up a different itinerary to get some extra meals. If there are flights, should be be straightforward to figure it out in this case (especially if booked through the CAF). But without proper oversight, pretty easy to screw people around and threaten them with all kinds of stuff, so not sure if the relatively niche isolation of some of these units makes it worse. Really strange that the CDS didn't go along with the analysts recommendations (as they sounded like they were based on some easily demonstrable facts) but have no idea what the facts are, so not really sure what the right decision is. Does seem like they are going out of their way to jerk him around, and the threat against his security clearance is a pretty big one to brow beat someone in the Int world with.

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2019, 22:13:04 »
Just to make sure were on the same page here, are you referring to a person making up a fraudulent CF52 claim saying that they paid for something and then stealing their WO's stamp and forging the signature and making it look like the claim was section 32'd and 34'd because that I've seen happen a few times and they were caught and charged as they should be or are you talking about a person who tries to claim the wrong size car or a claim a car that wasn't approved in advance because that I've also seen happen but not get charged because of it.

Fair point. There are obviously gradations/levels of severity to inaccuracies in claims. I accept that in this circumstance, with this Cpl, Mens Rea, or a guilty mind might be difficult to prove, given what was provided in the news article. In that case, it is odd that the unit went the UDI route...unless there are facts not in evidence to us, the casual observer.

All this to say...  :dunno:

Offline ballz

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2019, 23:20:39 »
To be fair when I read the article I see no mention of the claim being dealt with through the disciplinary system. Those they throw the word "accused" around, reading between the lines it appears that the claim incident was used to justify his low PER score... perhaps mentioned on a PDR or even a remedial measure, and perhaps part of the reason his security clearance might be reviewed... but not through a summary trial or court martial which obviously would not be dealt with through the grievance process.

There's a lot of "maybe's" and "perhaps" in there but it sounds like this claims thing was being dealt with on the administrative side of the house vice disciplinary.
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Offline hattrick72

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Re: Ottawa soldier alleges he faced reprisals from military
« Reply #62 on: November 18, 2019, 23:28:04 »
Why redress the PER if it has RM listed? My guess is no RM were given in this case. You don't spend $45,000 of your families money to fight something so stupid.