Author Topic: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran  (Read 13221 times)

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« Last Edit: January 11, 2020, 11:46:36 by milnews.ca »
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2020, 09:23:21 »
Looks like I was wrong. I was sure Iran would never give up the evidence and admit fault.

Maybe they realized how much of an ******* it made them look on the world stage.

I remain convinced it was a combination of that, internal pressure and sanctions.  Almost all those on board were Iranian citizens or ex pats.  All had links to family in Iran. That is a lot of angry people within their own borders.

There is already unrest in Iran at various levels.  The evidence was starting to get overwhelming.

Best to just fess up and take the short term medicine.
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2020, 11:25:45 »
Speaking from planet Realpolitik, it will be interesting to see how the US and other western nations weaponize this massive F*ckup with respect to the Iranian nuclear program etc.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't want to be Gunner Farzad in the 33rd Iranian Revolutionary Guards' Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment ...
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2020, 12:40:52 »
Discussion related to how to deal with Iran split off to the Iran Super Thread.  Also re-named the thread to reflect it was a shoot down and not a crash.

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2020, 12:41:04 »
Speaking from planet Realpolitik, it will be interesting to see how the US and other western nations weaponize this massive F*ckup with respect to the Iranian nuclear program etc.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't want to be Gunner Farzad in the 33rd Iranian Revolutionary Guards' Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment ...

In a way I feel sorry for him.  I bet he is very remorseful but he is going to the head chopper.  I think I would do it myself before.  Or beg that my family remains unhurt...about the best he can wish for.  Sad all around

On the bright side is this the spark that sets the fire on the mullahs?

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2020, 13:58:56 »
In the meantime all the media and political pundits are now going to turn their attention to:
- how could a "sophisticated" air defence system like this be capable of making such a mistake, surely the plane couldn't be mistaken for a cruise missile;
- how could Iran allow commercial air traffic to continue at this time;
- why did Ukrainian International Airlines allow their plane to operate during such a tense situation;
- isn't this all Trump's fault in the first place;
- why are the Harry and Meg stories more important and covered in more depth in the Daily Mail than the Iran ones;
- etc ad nauseum.

Personally, I've heard enough. Like most major tragedies, several factors came into play which collectively caused it. Trying to parse the blame through endless and tedious analysis by "expert" commentators is, well,... tedious.

Just to add my own analysis, I expect that it wasn't just Gunner Farzad to blame. I expect that there was a second lieutenant in the loop.

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2020, 14:09:23 »
Speaking from planet Realpolitik, it will be interesting to see how the US and other western nations weaponize this massive F*ckup with respect to the Iranian nuclear program etc.

Meanwhile, I wouldn't want to be Gunner Farzad in the 33rd Iranian Revolutionary Guards' Anti-Aircraft Missile Regiment ...

In a related news item, the entire crew of the anti aircraft SAM that accidentally shot down a Ukrainian airliner were killed in a horrific fiery traffic accident. (This is a joke) 😋
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2020, 15:59:08 »
This from Ukraine's President today speaking to Ukraine ...
Quote
Fellow Ukrainians!

I have just had a phone conversation with President of Iran Hassan Rouhani.

He officially apologized to all of Ukraine and the relatives of the deceased, and acknowledged the fact that Iran had shot down a Ukrainian Boeing-737.

Now I want and I am finally able to tell you in detail about all the actions of the Ukrainian authorities, starting from the tragic morning of January 8.

Immediately after the plane crash, the emergency operations center at the NSDC of Ukraine was created and started working.

The ambassador and consul of Ukraine in Iran arrived at the scene at Imam Khomeini Airport.

An extraordinary government meeting was held to decide on the creation and deployment of a search and rescue group to Iran.

It included 45 experts from the State Aviation Service, the National Bureau of Air Accidents Investigation of Ukraine, representatives from the NSDC, Security Service of Ukraine, State Emergency Service, Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Foreign Affairs and UIA.

We have sent to Tehran the best specialists of our country with extensive expertise.

The Office of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine appealed to Iran, Canada, Sweden and the United Kingdom to establish an international investigation group.

On January 9, at 3:30 our search and rescue team arrived in Tehran and started its work at the scene of the disaster 2 hours later.

I had a conversation with the President of Iran regarding a clear and full interaction with our experts. They gained access to the debris of the aircraft, black boxes, records from radars and dispatchers from the flight control center.

In the morning of January 9, the NSDC Secretary outlined 4 major versions, including the possibility of a Ukrainian plane being hit by a missile.

DNA of relatives of the victims was collected very quickly to identify the bodies of the deceased. In particular, of the cabin crew member whose relatives were in the temporarily occupied territory.

I have held working consultations with our international partners - the Prime Ministers of Canada, Sweden, the United Kingdom, the Presidents of Iran and Afghanistan, and have emphasized the need for joint action to investigate the circumstances of this tragedy.

In the evening, statements came from US, Canadian and UK leaders about the alleged downing of Ukraine's Boeing.

We urged all international partners to provide data that would confirm this version.

We worked systematically, without hysterics for the sake of one thing - achieving the result, namely finding out the truth about the circumstances of the plane crash.

On January 10, I had a conversation with United States Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and a meeting with US Chargé d'Affaires in Ukraine Christine Quinn who provided me with important and useful information for investigation.

Ambassador of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Melinda Simmons also provided important information.

I want to commend the work of Ukrainian experts in Iran.

They worked and continue to work selflessly, diligently and around the clock. Their high professionalism and promptness, convincing preliminary findings and evidence found in Tehran did not allow to hide the truth.

Today, the leadership of the Islamic Republic of Iran has acknowledged the fact of shooting down the Ukrainian plane and admitted its fault in the plane crash.

This has also been undoubtedly aided by the support of international partners and the steadfast position of the world community. For this I express my sincere gratitude to the leaders of the US, Canada, Great Britain, other countries, international organizations - on behalf of the Ukrainian people.

At present, a group of Ukrainian experts is continuing its work.

A series of steps still need to be taken to complete the investigation.

They are currently trying to rebuild the plane.

Returning to the conversation with the President of Iran.

We agreed that right now he would order to finish the identification of the bodies of the deceased and prepare them for the return to Ukraine as soon as possible together with Ukrainian experts,.

This is to happen shortly.

We also agreed to start working together to decipher two onboard recorders - "black boxes".

We agreed on full legal and technical cooperation, including the issue of compensation.

We agreed that nobody would avoid punishment.

The Office of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine opened an investigation for the murder of Ukrainian citizens.

The Government will provide financial assistance to the families of the victims.

The state will also assist them in receiving compensation from the carrier, insurance companies and the Islamic Republic of Iran.

 

I call on all international partners of Ukraine, the entire world community to be one and persistent until the full and final investigation into all the circumstances of this disaster. All of us need it.

For the sake of a human who should feel safe in this turbulent world - on earth, in water or in the air.

For a human and human life must be of the highest value to any government, any state, any politician.

 

Fellow Ukrainians!

In these difficult days for each of us I want to say the following.

I will return all the dead to their loved ones, they will be able to bid a proper final farewell. We will honor their memory.

 All perpetrators will be punished.

We will return to Ukrainians not only a sense of security and justice, but also confidence that Ukraine will always protect you in any corner of the planet.
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2020, 16:13:59 »
This from Ukraine's President today speaking to Ukraine ...

While on the other hand, Trudeau who I thought handled things well until now, is sounding a wee bit strident. Iran has come a long way in this admitting culpability and apologizing. Words like "outrage" and "furious" are not helpful at this time.

Quote
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he told Iranian President Hassan Rouhani on Saturday that Tehran must take full responsibility for downing Ukrainian International Airlines flight PS752 and killing all 176 passengers and crew on board, including 57 Canadians.

Trudeau said he is both "outraged" and "furious" over the incident and expects full co-operation from Iranian authorities in investigating the circumstances that led to the crash.

"We need full clarity on how such a horrific tragedy could have occurred," Trudeau said at a press conference on Saturday. "Families are seeking justice and accountability and they deserve closure." ...

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2020, 16:18:20 »
While on the other hand, Trudeau who I thought handled things well until now, is sounding a wee bit strident. Iran has come a long way in this admitting culpability and apologizing. Words like "outrage" and "furious" are not helpful at this time.

 :2c:

That’s probably for domestic consumption. If he doesn’t make enough angry noises the drooling commentariat will crap all over him regardless of the actual content of his words.
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2020, 16:19:36 »
Looks like at least 1 revolutionary guard commander had asked that the airspace be closed until tensions were cooled down but was overruled at the time...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/middleeast/iran-shot-down-ukrainian-plane/index.html
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2020, 16:35:07 »
... If he doesn’t make enough angry noises the drooling commentariat will crap all over him regardless of the actual content of his words.
Social media's starting to line up with the "where's the outrage?" memes already ....
Looks like at least 1 revolutionary guard commander had asked that the airspace be closed until tensions were cooled down but was overruled at the time...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/11/middleeast/iran-shot-down-ukrainian-plane/index.html
We are saddened at his suicide later this week ...

Meanwhile, my fave Putin parody Tweeter's at it again ...
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2020, 18:43:13 »
Some clear-headed and factual reporting (as usual) from WAPO:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/zelensky-calls-for-admission-of-guilt-justice-after-iran-admits-to-mistakenly-shooting-down-ukrainian-plane/2020/01/11/2c85cb08-33d8-11ea-971b-43bec3ff9860_story.html

Quote
Iran admits to downing airliner amid calls for justice, transparency

By Erin Cunningham and
Isabelle Khurshudyan
Jan. 11, 2020 at 6:07 p.m. EST
In Iran's account, the missile operator had 10 seconds to decide whether the plane was a threat. The decision was made. And a surface-to-air missile streaked toward the passenger jet.

Iran’s admission Saturday that “human error” brought down Ukrainian International Airlines Flight 752 added fresh details to what Western officials had concluded — a missile was to blame for Wednesday’s disaster that left all 176 people aboard the Kyiv-bound flight dead.

What comes next is how Iran will respond to demands to allow a full and open investigation and for authorities in Tehran to bring the perpetrators to justice. Pressure was not just from Ukraine and other nations whose citizens were aboard the Boeing 737-800.

Protests flared on the streets of Tehran, where apparent student-led rallies decried the missile mistake and chanted rare denunciations against military chiefs: “Resign, resign, resign.”

Iranian officials said military personnel targeted the plane as it turned toward a “sensitive military site” shortly after departing Tehran’s international airport before dawn.

The statement was a stunning about-face for Iran after days of rejecting Western assertions that a surface-to-air missile brought down the plane.

Now, leaders in Tehran face new challenges.

Ukraine has led demands for compensation and accountability, which could force Iran to appease the international community with a rare public reckoning over a military action. Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, urged the nation’s military to conduct a thorough inquiry.

At home, the tragedy quickly brought protests back onto the streets in another show of anger. In November, protests erupted around the country after an increase in gasoline prices, leading to deadly clashes with security forces.

Many Iranians on the plane were students in Iran or studying abroad in Canada. Campuses in Iran became a gathering place for grief and rage.

At a vigil Saturday at Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, crowds chanted “down, down, Khamenei.” At Amirkabir University of Technology, a crowd yelled slogans against Iran’s powerful Revolutionary Guard Corps — a dramatic contrast to the widespread mourning after a U.S. drone strike in Iraq killed the leader of the Revolutionary Guard’s Quds Force, Maj. Gen. Qasem Soleimani.

Iran struck back for Soleimani’s death with ballistic missiles against an Iraqi base with U.S. personnel four hours before the Ukrainian plane burst into a fireball.

President Trump, in a tweet also posted in Farsi, addressed the “brave, long-suffering people of Iran.”

“We are following your protests, and are inspired by your courage,” he wrote.

In Tehran, Britain’s ambassador to Iran, Robert Macaire, was detained by Iranian security forces after attending what was planned as a “vigil” for those who died in the crash. Macaire left when protests broke out, according to an official familiar with the incident who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive diplomatic matter. Iran’s Tasnim news agency reported that Macaire was held for more than an hour before being released.

Britain’s foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, denounced it as a “flagrant violation of international law.”

“The Iranian government is at a cross-roads moment,” Raab said. “It can continue its march towards pariah status with all the political and economic isolation that entails, or take steps to deescalate tensions and engage in a diplomatic path forwards.”

The General Staff of Iran’s Armed Forces apologized for what it said was “human error that caused the crash” of the Boeing 737-800.

Iran’s foreign minister, Mohammad Javad Zarif, offered “profound regrets, apologies and condolences.” But he also appeared to link the missile launch and the hyper-tense atmosphere in the region.

“Human error at time of crisis caused by U.S. adventurism led to disaster,” he tweeted, adding a red broken-heart emoji.

Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh, head of the Revolutionary Guard’s aerospace division, said the unit accepted responsibility for the shoot-down, describing a communication breakdown and a missile operator who had 10 seconds to decide whether the passenger jet was a threat.

“I wish I was dead,” Hajizadeh said on state TV about his first reaction when told about the missile mistake.

“This morning was not good, but it brought the truth,” Zelensky wrote on Facebook.

Later, he said that Iranian President Hassan Rouhani agreed on “full legal and technical cooperation, including compensation.”

“We agreed,” Zelensky said in a videotaped message, “that no one would slip away” from the investigation into the missile firing.

In a separate statement, Rouhani called the missile launch an “unforgivable mistake,” and he said officials must “address the weaknesses of the nation’s defense systems to make sure such a disaster is never repeated.”

For Iran, the incident brought the flip side to a similar tragedy. In 1988, the U.S. guided-missile cruiser USS Vincennes fired a surface-to-air missile that mistakenly brought down an Iran Air passenger jet over the Persian Gulf, killing all 290 people aboard.

In a televised news conference, Hajizadeh said defense systems were “on their highest level of alert” that morning following Trump’s threats to strike 52 sites across Iran — and that additional defense batteries had been stationed around Tehran.

He said authorities interviewed the individual operator of the antiaircraft system that brought down the plane.

“His communication system was disrupted,” Hajizadeh said. “He had 10 seconds to decide whether to shoot or not.”

Hajizadeh said Saturday that the Civil Aviation Authority should not be blamed: “All of the responsibility is with us.”

After Iran air disaster, Ukraine’s president is again unwittingly entangled in an international rift

The flight was mostly Iranians, Canadians and Ukrainians, and 138 of the passengers were headed to Toronto. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said in a statement that the downing was “a national tragedy.”

Trudeau — after a call with Rouhani — said there still needs to be a “full and complete investigation” and possible compensation for the families of the victims needs “to be part of the mix.”

Iran’s admission, however, is an “important step,” Trudeau told reporters.

On Facebook on Saturday, the director of Ukraine International Airlines, Evgeny Dykhne, said, “We didn’t doubt for one second that our crew and our plane could not cause this terrible plane crash.”

Zelensky’s office put out photos Saturday of shrapnel damage on the plane, an indication the Ukrainians had evidence that might have pushed Iran into its public admission.

Oleksiy Danilov, secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, said Ukrainian investigators quickly determined a missile strike brought down the plane.

“We came to this conclusion before the Americans and Canadians,” Danilov told The Washington Post. “Because we were working there — there are no Americans and Canadians there. There are our experts who confirmed our fears that it happened in this particular way.”

“Look,” he added, “we have people working in Iran. You want us to say this so that they kicked our people out, that we weren’t able to work there?”

Still, Ukrainian authorities could face questions over the decision to allow the airliner to take off despite the threat from Iranian missiles.

More than two hours before the flight took off, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration issued a notice prohibiting American carriers and commercial operators from flying in the airspace over Baghdad, the Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman.

Ukraine’s aviation authorities did not issue a similar notice for its carriers at the time — nor did Iran’s Civil Aviation Organization close the airspace over the country. At least three other aircraft were in flight near Tehran at the time of the downing, according to civil aviation monitors.

Ukrainian authorities came under criticism in 2014 for their failure to close the airspace over the conflict zones of Donetsk and Luhansk after the July 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

That passenger airliner was downed by a missile shot from a Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missile system from rebel territory in eastern Ukraine. The attack on the Boeing 777, which was passing over the conflict region while flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, killed all 298 people aboard.

A joint investigative team from Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine identified a Russian military unit in charge of the antiaircraft missile system and has pursued prosecution of Russian and Ukrainian citizens allegedly involved. But Russia has continued to deny involvement in the incident.

Khurshudyan reported from Moscow. David L. Stern in Kyiv and Paul Sonne and Carol Morello in Washington contributed to this report.
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2020, 20:41:15 »
Latest from Team Blue ...
Quote
The Hon. Erin O’Toole, Conservative Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs, James Bezan, Shadow Minister for National Defence, Pierre Paul-Hus, Shadow Minister for Public Safety, and Todd Doherty, Shadow Minister for Transport, issued the following statement calling on the Trudeau Liberals to take immediate action regarding the developing situation in Iran:

“Last night, the Iranian regime took responsibility for shooting down Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752. As a result, 176 people including 57 Canadians lost their lives and their friends and families are hurting and reeling from the loss.

“Justin Trudeau and the Liberals must take immediate action to ensure those responsible are held accountable for this terrible atrocity.

“Canada’s Conservatives call on the Trudeau Liberals to take the following measures:

1. Immediately implement the Conservative motion passed by Parliament in 2018 to list Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) as a terrorist organization.*
2. Demand Iran compensate all victims of the crash, repatriate their remains, and hold the perpetrators of this atrocity accountable.
3. Be prepared to impose Magnitsky Sanctions on Iran if they don’t fully cooperate with the international investigation.

“The fact that 57 Canadians lost their lives due to an Iranian missile requires action by the Trudeau Liberals. The status quo is unacceptable. The actions listed above represent a measured response to ensure that the families of the victims receive justice.

“The Iranian regime must not get a free pass after killing 57 Canadians. Canada’s Conservatives will continue to advocate for the appropriate and measured response necessary to ensure that Iran is held accountable and the families of the victims receive the justice they deserve.”

-30-
* - So far, only a part of the IRGC is listed as a terrorist organization - more on the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps' Qods Force here ...
Quote
... “Qassem Soleimani was a brutal yet talented terrorist leader,” (former CSIS official) Andrew Ellis told Global News in an interview. “That’s the best way I can describe him.”

“He was supporting organizations that were sympathetic to the Iranian cause and specifically organizations whose mandate was violence,” Ellis said. “He never ceased in his desire to cause mayhem and violence throughout the region.”

During Canada’s military mission in Afghanistan, for example, Soleimani’s Quds Force secretly supplied the Taliban with materials to attack international coalition troops, said Ellis, a former assistant director of operations at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Although careful to hide their involvement, Quds Force operatives backed the armed extremists to undermine the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force mission, he said.

He said it was difficult to know the extent of Soleimani’s role in Afghanistan, where Canada lost more than 150 troops, many killed by improvised explosives. Another 1,800 were wounded.

But he said if the Quds Force was supplying the Taliban, Soleimani was likely involved. “I would speculate that he had a role in supplying Canada’s enemies. And those enemies subsequently hurt Canadians.”

(...)

Ellis said the goal of the Quds Force was to spread instability in Afghanistan; Iran knew that Taliban attacks would lead to reprisals, resulting in losses for both the Taliban and the U.S.-led coalition.

“It just causes massive disruption.”

Canada’s list of proscribed terrorist groups accuses the Quds Force of providing “arms, funding and paramilitary training to extremist groups” including the Taliban.

The Quds Force is also linked to armed groups in Yemen, Bahrain and Iraq, as well as Hezbollah and Hamas. Soleimani “would do anything he could to disrupt and cause harm to not only Israelis but innocent Jewish people around the world,” Ellis said ...
More @ link
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2020, 21:53:57 »
Iran might need some sanctions relief so they can pay the families of those people onboard the aircraft. The US had to do that after the USN had shot down an Iranian airliner.

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2020, 22:51:07 »
Who did it is established, because the Iranian government has taken responsibility. The how and why is attracting more than its share of speculation. We don't know, but I subscribe to the principle that something that could be attributed to malice, is more likely to be a result of incompetence and/or stupidity, you know, what the Canadian Army describes as a brain fart. 

Unless we want to start an office pool, let's see what else is disclosed.

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2020, 22:57:24 »
Who did it is established, because the Iranian government has taken responsibility. The how and why is attracting more than its share of speculation. We don't know, but I subscribe to the principle that something that could be attributed to malice, is more likely to be a result of incompetence and/or stupidity, you know, what the Canadian Army describes as a brain fart. 

Unless we want to start an office pool, let's see what else is disclosed.

Or simply the fog of war, for that matter. There’s a huge gap between the general officer(s) who would have been making the strategic decisions, and whatever their equivalent is of an air defence battery commander who, in a vacuum of direction, gave the order to fire.
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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2020, 23:35:14 »
Who did it is established, because the Iranian government has taken responsibility. The how and why is attracting more than its share of speculation. We don't know, but I subscribe to the principle that something that could be attributed to malice, is more likely to be a result of incompetence and/or stupidity, you know, what the Canadian Army describes as a brain fart. 

Unless we want to start an office pool, let's see what else is disclosed.

That's why I think JT's call for:

Quote
A full and complete investigation "must" be conducted. "Full clarity" is needed. Families "deserve" closure. It is "absolutely necessary" that Canada participate in the investigation and Canadian officials "expect" the full co-operation of Iranian authorities. Iranian President Hassan Rouhani had responded with a "commitment to collaborate."

is ridiculous and borne out of a lack of understanding of both the Iranians and the complexity of the event.

A "full and complete investigation" would require everything from: an understanding of the quality of the Iranian troops and officer corps, their basic and advanced training; the command and control and communication systems in place; and a technical inspection of the equipment in use. Any rational being would understand that Iran would never consent to any such investigation involving foreign participants or even a release of whatever Board of Inquiry (if they even have such a thing) they produce internally.

It strikes me that their admission of responsibility, and commitment to compensation (part of their own Islamic legal system of Diya) is reasonable thing to expect in this kind of scenario. The actual compensation amounts will, of course, be an issue for the future to see if justice will actually be done to the victims' families. Let's call a spade a spade, the Iranians have already exceeded by their actions in a very laudable way, the weaselly, snivelling denials that continue to come out of Russia respecting the MH17 shoot down. To expect a public "full and complete investigation" as JT is signalling is expecting too much and, if anything, is inflaming the expectations of those who are grieving. Methinks this is JT trying to look forceful. He's not good at it. This is one of those situations where you can get more with honey than with vinegar. The Ukrainian president looks to me like he has a better approach with Iran.

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Offline Journeyman

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2020, 09:41:41 »
“Canada’s Conservatives call on the Trudeau Liberals to take the following measures:
…..
3. Be prepared to impose Magnitsky Sanctions on Iran if they don’t fully cooperate with the international investigation.
I think the Conservatives may be confused.     ???

A.  The Magnitsky Act (2012) is an American law, not Canadian.

B.  It applies to human rights violations, not criminal acts (like obstructing an investigation)  [although Trump expanded its applicability via one of his Executive Orders in 2017 to include  "human rights abusers, kleptocrats, and corrupt actors."

Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2020, 10:33:05 »
I think the Conservatives may be confused.     ???

A.  The Magnitsky Act (2012) is an American law, not Canadian.

B.  It applies to human rights violations, not criminal acts (like obstructing an investigation)  [although Trump expanded its applicability via one of his Executive Orders in 2017 to include  "human rights abusers, kleptocrats, and corrupt actors."

Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act (Sergei Magnitsky Law)

S.C. 2017, c. 21

https://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/J-2.3/FullText.html

You’re right though that this is aimed at corrupt practices and corrupt foreign officials, not military screwups. Looking at the wording of the act, it would not appear to be applicable to ‘mere’ obstruction of an investigation into an event like this. CPC are banging the minority opposition drum, that’s all.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Underway

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2020, 13:53:27 »
I don't envy the PM on this one.  The options are extremely limited, both for a solution for closure for the families and the geopolitical realities.

The best I think we can hope for is the bodies are returned to their loved ones.  The government should push for that above all else. After they have returned them, we look at other options.

Offline CloudCover

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2020, 14:48:10 »
Unless this can be framed as an act of terrorism, there is very little Canadian or International Courts can do. Iran is not a signatory to the Rome Statute. The Canadian State Immunity Act grants Iran immunity from any court or proceeding in Canada. Iran (and Syria) are the only entities listed in the regulations under the SIA that would not have immunity in the case of terrorism.

Options, if they even exist at all, are very limited.

This might be shocking to many people, but even if Iran had boarded the aircraft and tortured every single passenger to death, Canadian law does not touch them. On this point the Supreme Court of Canada has recently upheld State Immunity: Kazemi Estate v. Islamic Republic of Iran, 2014 SCC 62 (CanLII), [2014] 3 SCR 176, <http://canlii.ca/t/gdwht>

"State immunity is not solely a rule of international law, it also reflects domestic choices made for policy reasons, particularly in matters of international relations. Canada’s commitment to the universal prohibition of torture is strong. However, Parliament has made a choice to give priority to a foreign state’s immunity over civil redress for citizens who have been tortured abroad. That policy choice is not a comment about the evils of torture, but rather an indication of what principles Parliament has chosen to promote.

In Canada, state immunity from civil suits is codified in the SIA. That Act is a complete codification of Canadian law as it relates to state immunity from civil proceedings. It provides an exhaustive list of exceptions to state immunity and it does not contain an exception to immunity from civil suits alleging acts of torture committed abroad. For that reason, reliance need not, and indeed cannot, be placed on the common law, jus cogens norms or customary international law to carve out additional exceptions to the immunity granted to foreign states pursuant to the SIA. Although there is no doubt that the prohibition of torture has reached the level of a peremptory norm, the current state of customary international law regarding redress for victims of torture does not alter the SIA, nor does it render it ambiguous."

Canada has no extradition treaty with Iran to stand trial under Canadian Criminal law. The ICC has no jurisdiction over Iran because it is not a signatory or a failed state.  Unless there is some convention somewhere that Canada and Iran both have ratified and signed, there is almost no legal recourse at present.

Here's what will happen: nothing.  Iran is going to pay 8K to each victim of the shoot down. Likely Canada will pay more and then try somehow to recover the amount from Iran. (There's no legal basis for Canada to do that, but we all know it will happen.)

Edited: formatting.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 14:54:33 by CloudCover »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2020, 15:14:35 »
Unless this can be framed as an act of terrorism, there is very little Canadian or International Courts can do. Iran is not a signatory to the Rome Statute. The Canadian State Immunity Act grants Iran immunity from any court or proceeding in Canada. Iran (and Syria) are the only entities listed in the regulations under the SIA that would not have immunity in the case of terrorism.

Options, if they even exist at all, are very limited.

This might be shocking to many people, but even if Iran had boarded the aircraft and tortured every single passenger to death, Canadian law does not touch them. On this point the Supreme Court of Canada has recently upheld State Immunity: Kazemi Estate v. Islamic Republic of Iran, 2014 SCC 62 (CanLII), [2014] 3 SCR 176, <http://canlii.ca/t/gdwht>

"State immunity is not solely a rule of international law, it also reflects domestic choices made for policy reasons, particularly in matters of international relations. Canada’s commitment to the universal prohibition of torture is strong. However, Parliament has made a choice to give priority to a foreign state’s immunity over civil redress for citizens who have been tortured abroad. That policy choice is not a comment about the evils of torture, but rather an indication of what principles Parliament has chosen to promote.

In Canada, state immunity from civil suits is codified in the SIA. That Act is a complete codification of Canadian law as it relates to state immunity from civil proceedings. It provides an exhaustive list of exceptions to state immunity and it does not contain an exception to immunity from civil suits alleging acts of torture committed abroad. For that reason, reliance need not, and indeed cannot, be placed on the common law, jus cogens norms or customary international law to carve out additional exceptions to the immunity granted to foreign states pursuant to the SIA. Although there is no doubt that the prohibition of torture has reached the level of a peremptory norm, the current state of customary international law regarding redress for victims of torture does not alter the SIA, nor does it render it ambiguous."

Canada has no extradition treaty with Iran to stand trial under Canadian Criminal law. The ICC has no jurisdiction over Iran because it is not a signatory or a failed state.  Unless there is some convention somewhere that Canada and Iran both have ratified and signed, there is almost no legal recourse at present.

Here's what will happen: nothing.  Iran is going to pay 8K to each victim of the shoot down. Likely Canada will pay more and then try somehow to recover the amount from Iran. (There's no legal basis for Canada to do that, but we all know it will happen.)

Edited: formatting.

Regarding the shoot down, offhand I don’t see any plausible way we could charge any individuals criminally anyway, absent being able to prove that a deliberate decision was made to knowingly shoot down a civilian airliner. Legally, assuming it was a genuine mistake, there’s little real difference between the shoot down, and one of our LAVs taking out a taxi in Kandahar under the mistaken belief that it might be a VBIED.

On some of the brutal repression of internal dissent, hypothetically Canada could apply the provisions of the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, if there were a Canadian victim or the accused stepped foot onto Canadian soil. While the CAHWCA draws its definitions from the Rome Statute, it doesn’t require an accused to be an official of a state signatory to be subject to the jurisdiction of the Act. Such a hypothetical prosecution (say against a police or military or other government official who had a direct role in crimes against humanity with a Canadian victim) could result in an INTERPOL red notice being issued, and if the accused were to be flagged at a port of entry of a country with an extradition treaty with Canada, they could get picked up and extradited for prosecution. The RCMP has a small unit that, among other things, would carry out such investigations.

Needless to say, while the set of circumstances could happen, this would be a long shot. It also would be purely criminal in nature, and would not provide civil restitution or remedy.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline CloudCover

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2020, 15:27:26 »
In the case I noted above, the Supreme Court ruled there is no difference between a state and officials of a state. There is no method for Canada to prosecute Iranian nationals for torture crimes (committed after 1985) specified under domestic Canadian law. The foreign state would have to agree, and then the accused would have Charter rights and good luck after that. So it’s a rather pointless thing anyway. However, the Supreme Court did kick the ball back to Parliament to change and create new laws about these things, but obviously that didn’t happen.

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Offline Brihard

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Re: 8 Jan 2020: UKR Airliner shot down in Tehran
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2020, 16:18:51 »
In the case I noted above, the Supreme Court ruled there is no difference between a state and officials of a state. There is no method for Canada to prosecute Iranian nationals for torture crimes (committed after 1985) specified under domestic Canadian law. The foreign state would have to agree, and then the accused would have Charter rights and good luck after that. So it’s a rather pointless thing anyway. However, the Supreme Court did kick the ball back to Parliament to change and create new laws about these things, but obviously that didn’t happen.

...Yes there is. As I said, the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act. But there would have to be a Canadian nexus. It’s a rarely applied law, but it is on the books and it is in use. A foreign official can be prosecuted under our domestic law for a criminal offense under the act (essentially it codifies Jus Cogens into domestic law). But for the jurisdictional elements in S.8 of the act to be met there has to be a Canadian nexus under one of a few enumerated conditions. An Iranian national, if they tortured or killed a Canadian citizen in an act of political repression, could definitely be prosecuted, notwithstanding the many legal challenges that exist. Alternatively anyone who has committed any of the many acts constituting crimes against humanity or war crimes is subject to prosecution if they later touch Canadian soil, such as if they arrive as a prospective asylum claimant. Most frequently these individuals are identified before they touch our soil and are denied visas/immigration/refugee status while still abroad.

In any case, I’m not suggesting it’s at all likely to actually happen. I’m saying the law is in place that it very conceivably could. Say a Canadian citizen of Iranian descent returned to Iran, was tortured/murdered for political purposes, and witnesses were able to substantiate the offence and file a criminal complaint. That could lead to an investigation and prosecution.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-45.9/FullText.html
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.