Author Topic: Changes to service medals announced  (Read 6511 times)

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Online Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2020, 18:44:37 »
I covered off for OP in 2011 for 15 days, not that this BLINGFORGEN backdates as far, but I don't deserve the same medal that folks got that were there for 6-8 months. Maybe this is a way appease those who have been in for 15 years and only have a CD - this is entirely due to posting circumstance at the time of deployments and nothing to do with individual performance. I could care less with how many pieces of flair I have when I retire and that doesn't reflect ones contribution during service.

I whole heatedly agree. 

I tell the sailors under my leadership the same thing.  Do you job honestly and with pride.  But dont forget your family, they will be with you longer than the CAF.  Someday we take off the uniform for the last time and none of it matters anymore; and you will only wear your medals on Remembrance day.
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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2020, 21:14:13 »
With no disrespect to the fighter pilots you mention but this isnt/wasnt exactly flying  Hawker Typhoons across France, bombing Nazis a tree top level, getting raked with AAA and all the while watching for Messerschmidt's and Focke Wolf's to come screaming out of the sun.  Lets just try to keep some perspective.  I wonder do those on the ground begrudge the air crew and ground crews ? 

It seems to me we, the CAF, have been infected with a sort of "my service was more important than yours" affliction depending on your medals and what stories one can tell. 

We have always given the same campaign medals for all those partaking.  Just like those driving trucks far behind lines in WW2.  Someone has to fight and someone has to enable that fight.

During one of my first Remembrance days in uniform I met a vet and we shared a beer.  I asked about his service and he told me his job was to ferry/move/drive trucks around Ontario.  I didn't think his service less valuable.  Someone had to do that job.

What does any of that have to do with what I said? 
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Online Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2020, 06:14:21 »
What does any of that have to do with what I said?

I believe I was attempting to counter/temper your assertations.  Do I need to draw connecting lines ?
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2020, 06:33:25 »
With no disrespect to the fighter pilots you mention but this isnt/wasnt exactly flying  Hawker Typhoons across France, bombing Nazis a tree top level, getting raked with AAA and all the while watching for Messerschmidt's and Focke Wolf's to come screaming out of the sun.  Lets just try to keep some perspective.  I wonder do those on the ground begrudge the air crew and ground crews ? 

Are you implying our Hornet drivers were under no threat on Impact?  ISIS had and utilized AA.  Was it effective? Not really, however the threat was there, ask Jordan.

I keep mentioning it, but for the GCS-Allied Force aircrews only needed 5 sorties.

Online Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2020, 08:09:42 »
Are you implying our Hornet drivers were under no threat on Impact?  ISIS had and utilized AA.  Was it effective? Not really, however the threat was there, ask Jordan.

I keep mentioning it, but for the GCS-Allied Force aircrews only needed 5 sorties.

Not at all, but there are levels of threat.  Hence our HA and RA levels. 

As well I was asserting that it there is more to "dropping ordinance" on a target than the actions implied simply with EITS's that statement.  Frankly, having supported  Air Crews, I can imagine their outrageous howls if they weren’t chauffeured around for lunch would be great and deafening.  <There is tongue in cheek humor here>

Again everyone has a job to do. No one is more important than anyone else. 
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2020, 13:22:37 »
Maybe this is a way appease those who have been in for 15 years and only have a CD - this is entirely due to posting circumstance at the time of deployments and nothing to do with individual performance. I could care less with how many pieces of flair I have when I retire and that doesn't reflect ones contribution during service.

This I agree with.  Maybe it is because I have a lot more years than that with only a CD to wear due to going where the military wanted me.  I recall at one time that a clerk in Florida for a year would get a medal for being on a Small Op in the middle east as they were support staff for the op. Joked about it at the time as I have no idea what the clerk actually did there as I dealt directly with the mbrs on the Op in the middle east and never dealt with that clerk.  I was taking care of their pay and claims at the time.  Didn't even know the clerk existed for at least the first 6 months.

Thinking the right idea is to tie the medal to the operation/deployment rather than time in theatre .
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Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2020, 14:09:52 »
This I agree with.  Maybe it is because I have a lot more years than that with only a CD to wear due to going where the military wanted me.  I recall at one time that a clerk in Florida for a year would get a medal for being on a Small Op in the middle east as they were support staff for the op. Joked about it at the time as I have no idea what the clerk actually did there as I dealt directly with the mbrs on the Op in the middle east and never dealt with that clerk.  I was taking care of their pay and claims at the time.  Didn't even know the clerk existed for at least the first 6 months.

Thinking the right idea is to tie the medal to the operation/deployment rather than time in theatre .

Well done and thank you for your service.  With that said, I'll repeat (as I have done on a few occasions previously) a post that I wrote many years ago.

One of my lasting memories of someone talking about the decorations and medals that he was wearing occurred in 1994.  I had the good luck of having a COS date out of Lahr that permitted me to arrange my passage home on the Queen Elizabeth 2 sailing out of Southampton on 8 June.  . . . . 


A few people had approached me with the inevitable questions about who we were and what were we doing.  I was chatting with a lady when we were approached by a gentleman in a maroon jacket that included Cdn para wings and several medals.  He introduced himself and joined in the conversation which naturally turned to where had you been.  He had served with the 1 Cdn Para Bn as a private during the war and had made the jump into Normandy and over the Rhine. 

The lady with whom we were chatting asked about the medals and wings he and I were wearing.  I probably would have answered in my typically flippant manner about 12 years undetected crime (C.D.), 6 months getting a suntan and not getting a venereal disease (UNEFME) and 4 years wine and beer tasting (SSM with NATO bar), but he replied first by drawing her attention to the one medal we had in common, the Canadian Forces Decoration.  I was surprised when he told her it was the one that he was most proud to wear.  The lady asked why.  His reply impressed me and later that evening I wrote an account of what he said, maybe not verbatim, because we had imbibed several beverages, but close enough for government work.

He said.  “ It’s easy to be a soldier when everyone is or wants to be a soldier; when being in uniform is the normal thing to do.  The true measure of a man is his commitment to serving his country when there is little chance of excitement, or glory or getting medals.  This medal (he indicated his CD) shows people that we pledged a significant portion of our lives to serving our country when few others would, doing things that we didn't necessarily want to do and that were not very glamorous.  These (he indicated his 4 or 5 wartime medals) I got for spending 3 years in uniform doing what most guys my age were doing. Was it hard work and dangerous? Yes. But mostly I had a lot of fun doing it.”

Since then I’ve had a different perspective on those little pieces of ribbon that we wear.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2020, 16:57:05 »
I believe I was attempting to counter/temper your assertations.  Do I need to draw connecting lines ?

Not at all, but you're the one who used the words "importance" or "value".  They're not my words.

In your WWII example of someone driving trucks, etc...that still happens.  If the truck being driven is inside the boundaries of Iraq, they get the GCS.  Same as the CF18 pilot.  The distinction isn't made at the 'what your job was', it is in the "where did you do it?" question.

General Campaign Star - Expedition

The General Campaign Star (GCS) is awarded to members of the Canadian Forces and members of allied forces working with the Canadian Forces who deploy into a defined theatre of operations to take part in operations in the presence of an armed enemy.

5 October 2014 to present
Awarded to military personnel who served 14 days cumulative:
within the political boundaries and airspace of Iraq from 5 October 2014 onward; and/or
within the political boundaries of Syria, its airspace and territorial waters from 20 April 2015 onward.

And that's not really any different than WWII, is it?

France and Germany Star

The star was awarded for one day or more of service in France, Belgium, Holland or Germany between 06 June 1944 (D-Day) and 08 May 1945.

Like the GSM is now given to people who support ops but from say, Kuwait, in WWII you didn't get Stars if you weren't in the required locations at the required times.

Defence Medal

Although the medal was usually awarded to Canadians for six months service in Britain between 03 September 1939 and 08 May 1945, the exact terms were: Service in the forces in non-operational areas subjected to air attack or closely threatened, providing such service lasted for three or more years. Service overseas or outside the country of residence, providing that such service lasted for one year, except in territories threatened by the enemy or subject to bomb attacks, in which case it was six months prior to 02 September 1945.

So, looking back to the Stars and Medals from WWII, it doesn't seem to be a "new thing" to distinguish between 'conducting operations in a defined area" and "supporting ops from outside theatre".

And, like my post, the websites don't use words like 'importance' or 'value'.  Have another read;  my message wasn't the one you got out of my post.
When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.   Same goes for assessing/applying RA.   :2c:

I'll change the post and use a different example...

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving CF18 pilot who's doing a staff job as the ATF-I HQ in Kuwait and rides the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.   Same goes for assessing/applying RA.   :2c:
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 17:16:48 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2020, 17:01:38 »
Not at all, but there are levels of threat.  Hence our HA and RA levels. 

That is actually a bad example to use for IMPACT.  Despite how many days and nights aircrew spent in/over Iraq or Syria, our HA and RA was the exact same as the folks who never left the B & Bs in Kuwait. 
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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2020, 23:46:04 »
That is actually a bad example to use for IMPACT.  Despite how many days and nights aircrew spent in/over Iraq or Syria, our HA and RA was the exact same as the folks who never left the B & Bs in Kuwait.
Did Aircrew on Op Impact get ACRA?
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2020, 06:01:53 »
Did Aircrew on Op Impact get ACRA?

Yes we did.

Online Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2020, 06:59:39 »
Yes we did.

ACRA = "Flight Pay" like Sea and Land pay ?  How did you guys manage to collect that while being in receipt of FSP, HA and RA ?  We have all been told we arent allowed to collect environmental allowances and deployment benefits. 

When a fighter pilot can fly 28 mission dropping ordinance on targets in Iraq and Syria, and get the same medal as the dude driving CF18 pilot who's doing a staff job as the ATF-I HQ in Kuwait and rides the bus back of forth to the DFAC for 31 days in Kuwait...that, to me, better demonstrates the methodology is flawed.   Same goes for assessing/applying RA.   :2c:

For most of your post I don’t disagree with you.  I think the GCS has been diluted and its original intent has be lost.  You should see the sailors who walk around with it.  They haven’t been in a bar fight in a foreign port let alone be "in the presence of the enemy" yet they manage to justify its issue.  Meah...

The quoted portion I still don’t understand.  Are you upset that the REMF is making the same as the fighter pilot , getting the same medal ?   Or are you ok with what the REMF is getting and you think the fighter pilot deserves better recognition by way of pay and medals ? 

*I am a REMF, I am allowed to use that term at my pleasure* ;)

« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 07:30:37 by Halifax Tar »
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2020, 08:02:52 »
ACRA = "Flight Pay" like Sea and Land pay ?  How did you guys manage to collect that while being in receipt of FSP, HA and RA ?  We have all been told we arent allowed to collect environmental allowances and deployment benefits. 

Yes, we get to keep it and it's legal (*I don't think it is fair). I do recall from my Navy days that I did indeed lose my environmental allowance while collecting FSP/HA/RA.

The reference is - CBI 10.3.08(1) (Allowances for designated positions) A member who is entitled to an allowance under MFSI 10.3.05 (Hardship Allowance), unless the member is in a specific position on the operation designated by the CDS, is not entitled to an allowance under the following instructions:

                    (a) CBI 205.30 (Paratroop Allowance);

                    (b) CBI 205.31 (Rescue Specialist Allowance);

                    (c) CBI 205.32 (Aircrew Allowance)

The next para in the reference informs all others that they can't receive LDA, SDA, SUB, etc.. while in receipt of HA.

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2020, 08:48:49 »
ACRA = "Flight Pay" like Sea and Land pay ?  How did you guys manage to collect that while being in receipt of FSP, HA and RA ?  We have all been told we arent allowed to collect environmental allowances and deployment benefits. 

For most of your post I don’t disagree with you.  I think the GCS has been diluted and its original intent has be lost.  You should see the sailors who walk around with it.  They haven’t been in a bar fight in a foreign port let alone be "in the presence of the enemy" yet they manage to justify its issue.  Meah...

The quoted portion I still don’t understand.  Are you upset that the REMF is making the same as the fighter pilot , getting the same medal ?   Or are you ok with what the REMF is getting and you think the fighter pilot deserves better recognition by way of pay and medals ? 

*I am a REMF, I am allowed to use that term at my pleasure* ;)

The issue in EITS’ post is that under the previous rules, both would get the GSM-EXP when clearly the one dropping weapons and facing the occasional AAA in Iraq/Syria should have been recognized for a bit more...  Both jobs are indeed important but one is in direct contact with the enemy, the other not.

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2020, 08:53:17 »
The issue in EITS’ post is that under the previous rules, both would get the GSM-EXP when clearly the one dropping weapons and facing the occasional AAA in Iraq/Syria should have been recognized for a bit more...  Both jobs are indeed important but one is in direct contact with the enemy, the other not.
You want 2 medals for your tour? What about CANSOF, who was probably in infinitely more "direct contact with the enemy" for more than the handful of hours a day you were over the ops box? How many medals do they get?

Online Halifax Tar

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2020, 10:01:52 »
The issue in EITS’ post is that under the previous rules, both would get the GSM-EXP when clearly the one dropping weapons and facing the occasional AAA in Iraq/Syria should have been recognized for a bit more...  Both jobs are indeed important but one is in direct contact with the enemy, the other not.

You want 2 medals for your tour? What about CANSOF, who was probably in infinitely more "direct contact with the enemy" for more than the handful of hours a day you were over the ops box? How many medals do they get?

These two posts articulate my point exactly.  Stop looking at the other guy an begrudging them and take pride in your service.  We all have a roll to play. 

SSM, you wouldnt have been able to drop ordiance with out someone paying you, loading your bombs, ordering your bombs, selecting yout target(s), feeding you, housing you ect ect ect.  We all have a role to play. 

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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2020, 10:36:34 »
You want 2 medals for your tour? What about CANSOF, who was probably in infinitely more "direct contact with the enemy" for more than the handful of hours a day you were over the ops box? How many medals do they get?

They get 1.  He isn't looking for two medals.  It is the recognition that's all.  Everyone in Kuwait can get the GSM-EXP.  To qualify for the GCS-EXP aircrew needed 30 sorties over Iraq (and later Syria).  The CF-18 folks (and AAR) needed at least two rotations to get their 30 flights.

He would qualify for two medals if the rotations were 6 months apart..

It really isn't a big deal anymore, now that they've dropped it to 14 days, which is a victory for aircrew (IMHO). 


Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2020, 15:01:32 »
You want 2 medals for your tour? What about CANSOF, who was probably in infinitely more "direct contact with the enemy" for more than the handful of hours a day you were over the ops box? How many medals do they get?

I was in Northern Ireland (not doing SAS tasks), at the same time as the SAS were in Northern Ireland (doing SAS tasks). I have the same GSM NI gong as the SAS guys who served there. So does the guy who was our clerk at Bn HQ.

This is a good thing IMHO as it recognizes campaign service, not apparent proximity to the enemy (FWIW, the stats show that me and the clerk were more likely to get nailed by the bad guys than the SAS, mainly as a result of sniper/mortar/IED attacks).

In the US they have the Combat Infantryman's Badge (CIB) to differentiate the 'front fighters' from those in the rear with the gear. As I understand, it they have a terrifically difficult time figuring out who should get that distinction versus who shouldn't, and suffer from excessive war tourism from those who are just trying to bling up their battledress.

I've never been a fan of these types of awards as it officially ignores the fact that one of the key reasons that those at the sharp end can do their jobs at all is because the other arms and services support them. Also, in our new asymmetric warfare reality, almost everyone is more or less at risk as there are no safe zones anymore, as I described above with my NI example or as we've seen recently with Iran launching missiles at our bases in Iraq.
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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2020, 15:14:18 »
ACRA = "Flight Pay" like Sea and Land pay ?  How did you guys manage to collect that while being in receipt of FSP, HA and RA ?  We have all been told we arent allowed to collect environmental allowances and deployment benefits.

Yes, AIRCRA is aircrew allowance.  How did we keep it while receiving Ops FSP, HA and RA?  We were in Designated Flying Positions (which is included in the Remarks section of the CFTPO tasking msg), or we lost it.  Aircrew trades who were deployed and working in say, the DMSC (Deployed Mission Support Center) for the CP-140 Det would lose their AIRCRA because they weren't actually flying during that period, and collecting Ops FSP, RA and HA (and tax free status).  I've kept my AIRCRA on every deployment over a few different named ops, some of which did and some did not have associated HA and/or RA.

The only "extra" cash flyers took home was AIRCRA.  Most LRP folks were flying 100+ hours a month, so that works out to $3-$4 more an hour for flying around Iraq and Syria.  Should we have kept AIRCRA?  Certainly...why would I lose it just because I was receiving Ops FSP, HA and RA?  None of them are intended to compensate what AIRCRA is for:

205.32 - Aircrew Allowance (Monthly)
205.32(1) (Intent) Aircrew Allowance (Monthly) is financial compensation paid for the performance of assigned duties where there is continual and substantial exposure to the environmental conditions associated with flying operations.

10.3.04 - Operations Foreign Service Premium
10.3.04(1) (Intent) The Operations Foreign Service Premium (OPS FSP) is an allowance payable to a member:
in recognition of service on operations; and
to cover expenses not specifically covered by other allowances and benefits.

10.3.05 - Hardship Allowance
10.3.05(1) (Intent) The intent of the Hardship Allowance (HA) is to compensate for the living conditions existing at a specific post.

10.3.07 - Risk Allowance
10.3.07(1) (Intent) The intent of the Risk Allowance (RA) is to compensate for the risks associated with a specific post.

If all non-flyers at our location in Kuwait got Ops FSP, the same HA and same RA rates (which was the case), what compensation was there for flyers?  AIRCRA. At $3-$4 hour of flying.  Not really much of a financial advantage to going into the Badlands, more so when you consider the worst case scenario (i.e. - the Jordanian pilot they doused in gas and burned alive in the cage after he was captured).

Quote
For most of your post I don’t disagree with you.  I think the GCS has been diluted and its original intent has be lost.  You should see the sailors who walk around with it.  They haven’t been in a bar fight in a foreign port let alone be "in the presence of the enemy" yet they manage to justify its issue.  Meah...

Maybe so, but if it's the case, then how would we define the criteria more effectively for the GCS-Exp, or for the GCS-SWA back in the Afghanistan days?  If you look at the criteria I posted for the WWII Star, it was defined by "inside a specific geo area, during and for a specified time".  In the WWII Star....it was only 1 day.  I am certain there are WWII vets wearing Stars who never 'closed with and destroyed the enemy'. 

Quote
The quoted portion I still don’t understand.  Are you upset that the REMF is making the same as the fighter pilot , getting the same medal ?   Or are you ok with what the REMF is getting and you think the fighter pilot deserves better recognition by way of pay and medals ? 

*I am a REMF, I am allowed to use that term at my pleasure* ;)

I wouldn't actually use the word "upset".  Do I think there should be different H & As and RAs for the 2?  I do, and it's not because their service is less important, but it certainly is different.

I recall many discussions, some on here, back during the Afghanistan days where some people were not happy that KAFers got the same Star as those folks who were living in FOBs and out posts, away from Timmies and the DFAC for weeks and months at a time. 

Looking back on the info I posted from the WWII Stars and Medals info...I suspect this discussion took place many many times in many Legions after WWII as well.  Happened then...happened during Afghanistan...happening now.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 16:32:08 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2020, 15:15:31 »
Both jobs are indeed important but one is in direct contact with the enemy, the other not.

Maybe the best word isn't "importance" or "value", but simply the word "different". 
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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2020, 15:28:18 »
You want 2 medals for your tour? What about CANSOF, who was probably in infinitely more "direct contact with the enemy" for more than the handful of hours a day you were over the ops box? How many medals do they get?

They got 1 if they were solely in Iraq.  Some of them might have received the GSM-Exp even though they were in the Badlands some too (speaking as a guy who conducted some missions IDS to the CANSOF TF, and had their LOs come with us on missions). 

2 medals for one tour....that doesn't happen!  Oh..wait…

https://www.hilltimes.com/2019/08/14/liberal-lip-service-to-peacekeeping-didnt-live-up-to-election-pledge/211254

Everyone who wears a CPSM...do you give them the  :orly: look;  they are all "2 for 1" types.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2020, 15:29:28 »
You want 2 medals for your tour? What about CANSOF, who was probably in infinitely more "direct contact with the enemy" for more than the handful of hours a day you were over the ops box? How many medals do they get?

I want people who did two tours get the medals they deserve for different purposes (one tour supporting combat ops, one conducting ops against an armed enemy).

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2020, 15:40:24 »
I want people who did two tours get the medals they deserve for different purposes (one tour supporting combat ops, one conducting ops against an armed enemy).

Just wanted to add here, the change doesn't apply only to Aircrew who flew IMPACT sorties.  All folks who deployed into Iraq when we were hitting ISIS, and the follow-on folks who went onto the training mission under IMPACT or the NMI and were in Iraq are also included in this.

If a Doctor deployed to IMPACT for say, less than 30 days before, and was at the Fd Hosp in Erbil...saved X amount of lives from IED injuries or something like that...he/she got...nadda.  Nothing. 

Doing their job, in a deployed Op location...but "for not enough days".  Saves lives.  But it was only for say 19 days. Sorry, your contribution isn't worthy of a Star.

Does that really make sense to people?  Really?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 15:55:51 by Eye In The Sky »
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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2020, 15:42:41 »
These two posts articulate my point exactly.  Stop looking at the other guy an begrudging them and take pride in your service.  We all have a roll to play. 

SSM, you wouldnt have been able to drop ordiance with out someone paying you, loading your bombs, ordering your bombs, selecting yout target(s), feeding you, housing you ect ect ect.  We all have a role to play.

I am pretty sure I said both jobs were important.  No job is more important but they are executed in massively different conditions.  If a pilot was only flying over Kuwait doing Maintenance Test Flight, he would not deserve the GCS.

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Re: Changes to service medals announced
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2020, 16:37:34 »
Yes, AIRCRA is aircrew allowance.  How did we keep it while receiving Ops FSP, HA and RA?.... 

Thats awesome I am glad you get to keep it.  I only wish I worked for an organization who realized, recently, that it could have been paying us SDA as well as FSP, HR and RA and began doing it.  Instead my leadership said NO!  Who knows what the future holds...

If all non-flyers at our location in Kuwait got Ops FSP, the same HA and same RA rates (which was the case), what compensation was there for flyers?  AIRCRA. At $3-$4 hour of flying.  Not really much of a financial advantage to going into the Badlands, more so when you consider the worst case scenario (i.e. - the Jordanian pilot they doused in gas and burned alive in the cage after he was captured).

Why do you/they need further compensation ?  Are we in the business of trying to create a tiered level of deployment compensation ?  See Dafts post.  Hes more articulate than I can be.

Maybe so, but if it's the case, then how would we define the criteria more effectively for the GCS-Exp, or for the GCS-SWA back in the Afghanistan days?  If you look at the criteria I posted for the WWII Star, it was defined by "inside a specific geo area, during and for a specified time".  In the WWII Star....it was only 1 day.  I am certain there are WWII vets wearing Stars who never 'closed with and destroyed the enemy'. 

I think the criteria is fine.  I think we simply like to fudge reality to ease egos.

I wouldn't actually use the word "upset".  Do I think there should be different H & As and RAs for the 2?  I do, and it's not because their service is less important, but it certainly is different.

I recall many discussions, some on here, back during the Afghanistan days where some people were not happy that KAFers got the same Star as those folks who were living in FOBs and out posts, away from Timmies and the DFAC for weeks and months at a time. 

Looking back on the info I posted from the WWII Stars and Medals info...I suspect this discussion took place many many times in many Legions after WWII as well.  Happened then...happened during Afghanistan...happening now.

Perhaps.  And often the supply train is misunderstood and undervalued by those it supports.  Ask Paulus how that turned out.  Again see Dafts post.


I am pretty sure I said both jobs were important.  No job is more important but they are executed in massively different conditions.  If a pilot was only flying over Kuwait doing Maintenance Test Flight, he would not deserve the GCS.

I dont think you understand that Logistics and other support are just as necessary as you flying the plane.  But if you really feel like your supporting arms had no or different or lesser levels of contribution to the fight I suggest your create a service paper supporting your position and staff it up through RCAF channels.
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