Author Topic: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets  (Read 975 times)

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Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« on: January 11, 2020, 12:35:25 »
Since I was never in Cadets myself and am many months away from getting any CIC training (my medical at CFRC Hamilton is next week), I have no idea what appropriate/acceptable discipline techniques. I've only really seen two examples:

1. At recent range day, the Range Officer did the time-honoured tradition of having everyone do 1 pushup for each piece of "brass" found after cleanup.

2. In class, the OCDT instructing had a cadet who was talking out of turn stand at attention facing the corner of the room for a portion of the period.

But that's all I've seen. What other techniques are acceptable?

Offline Blackadder1916

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Re: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2020, 13:17:11 »
Discipline techniques?  Perhaps looking at applicable orders and directives is appropriate.

https://www.amphion.ca/home/references/cato-15-22-conduct-discipline-cadets/

Accepting that it has been a half century or so since I was in Cadets and also a multiple of decades since tasked in support of a cadet summer camp, my take on the subject may be dated.  However, the scenarios you've related are not what I would have used the term "discipline" to describe the actions taken, but rather "leadership" (mostly poor leadership in the case of the OCdt instructing).  One of the most frequent comments on these and other means about cadets is that they appreciate being treated like young adults.  In the same way that I would have never publicly humiliated an inexperienced soldier for a transgression such as described, a likewise consideration should be given to a young cadet.  Yes, corrective action is needed; some immediately to gain control of the situation so that a period of instruction can continue uninterrupted, but then some later to impress on the transgressor (especially, if it is a continuing pattern of behaviour) that his/her actions have consequences.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2020, 14:38:20 »
Since I was never in Cadets myself and am many months away from getting any CIC training (my medical at CFRC Hamilton is next week), I have no idea what appropriate/acceptable discipline techniques. I've only really seen two examples:

1. At recent range day, the Range Officer did the time-honoured tradition of having everyone do 1 pushup for each piece of "brass" found after cleanup.

2. In class, the OCDT instructing had a cadet who was talking out of turn stand at attention facing the corner of the room for a portion of the period.

But that's all I've seen. What other techniques are acceptable?

I would tread lightly on this subject and find advice from higher in the Cadet world.  I could see this going sideways fast.
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2020, 15:17:13 »
2. In class, the OCDT instructing had a cadet who was talking out of turn stand at attention facing the corner of the room for a portion of the period.
What Blackadder said. As to the pushups, while I've no particular issue on principal with that sort of thing, there was a comprehensive banning of punitive PT a few years back: haven't looked lately, but expect that particular reg's still in force. If it turns out not to be, proceed with caution, if at all: the ban appeared at least partly due to idiots abusing that particular tool.

Will amplify, for general consumption, the comment regarding cadets and treatment as young adults, as this seems to elude some people: they will rise or sink, as a collective, to the expectations and structure they are given.

The LHQ and CTC program "as written" does not necessarily draw the best out of first and second years; certainly, Sea side has significant overlap with the Navy League cadet program (9-12) in the first, and to a certain extent second year programs (i.e., the corps program's designed initial expectations are achievable by ten year olds), so corps must develop and encourage maturity through extracurricular and unit-cultural means. Approaches and processes that require maturity, good judgment, independence, and responsibility within the scope of a first- or second-year cadet's world will pay dividends when those cadets are moving into NCO and instructor roles. In units where this has not been the case, it's a major effort to establish that sort of environment, especially in a corps without strong cadets in senior roles (the Book would say WO-CWO; small corps reality's generally "sharp MCpl" and up).

As to classroom management, better to take a five-minute break, send the rest of the class away for a turn around the building, and have a chat with any particularly disruptive individuals. If that doesn't deliver, consider removal from the class at a convenient time: let them cool their heels, out of sight of their peers and not derailing instruction, in the orderly room or training office.

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2020, 18:09:49 »
Thanks, Blackadder, the CATO 15-22 link is very helpful. This is exactly the sort of stuff I was looking for. You really CAN find everything on the internet these days.

It looks like by far the most common "corrective measures" are, after verbal warnings, assignment of extra duties or removal of privileges. I know that my unit will be instituting a green/red chit system in the near future, so this would seem to fall within the recommended measures as well.

I would tread lightly on this subject and find advice from higher in the Cadet world.  I could see this going sideways fast.

Yes, I have been treading lightly so far, but I also don't want to tread so lightly that I set a bad precedent where the cadets in my corps see me as the instructor that they can take liberties with.

I certainly seek advice where I can, but at my unit there are very few people to consult and I can't consult them all the time, so I appreciate advice here so I have some other perspectives and information "going in" that I can build upon.

Offline Kyle Burrows

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Re: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 12:02:03 »
CATO 15-22 (as linked above) is the definitive go to for discipline within the cadet program. 

Extra duties, typically relating to the deficiency, are a reasonable go-to before escalating further.

For your first example, you cannot assign a physical punishment that does not relate to the deficiency - though I do love push-ups, it is important to note that this is not a formal correction and a cadet could not be disciplined for not participating in these (though, when done properly and framed properly, there is no issue with cadets doing push-ups as a group - provided it is not punitive).

For your second example, I would not necessarily consider the punishment to be effective.  A student cannot learn properly while focusing on being at the position of attention.  Learning just doesn't work that way (unless they are learning how to be at attention, of course!).  In many cases, acting out in class can be related to an instructor not being properly engaging (you will learn these techniques on your instructor qual classes that are part of the Occupational Training Course).  If it was a one time thing, a simple off to the side conversation would be appropriate.  If continuing, this really would be an escalation through the chain to be addressed further.

Most important to any correction is demonstrating a) that the disciplinary measure fits the inappropriate behaviour and b) proper documentation.  The same way platoon commanders are expected to keep platoon notebooks/ledgers, any CIC officer should be keeping a ledger of their own actions in the event that it is needed for follow-up.  (Paper trails will be asked for as disciplinary action progresses).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 13:55:32 by Kyle Burrows »
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 16:09:14 »
While private in the US ARMY while at Ft Wainwright, AK on Ex several of us went to the late night dining hall but were to be back at a certain time. We got back late and were told to take our kit to the roof to sleep. It actually was pretty pleasant. Wehad a CF company in the barracks as well so they saw what US punishment was all about.  ;D

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Appropriate Discipline Techniques for Cadets
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 16:30:58 »
While private in the US ARMY while at Ft Wainwright, AK on Ex several of us went to the late night dining hall but were to be back at a certain time. We got back late and were told to take our kit to the roof to sleep. It actually was pretty pleasant. Wehad a CF company in the barracks as well so they saw what US punishment was all about.  ;D

Thank you for that. I just about sprayed coffee all over my keyboard :)
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