Author Topic: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coronavirus thread]  (Read 5293 times)

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Offline CBH99

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2020, 18:31:47 »
I notice you said "Parade night" I assume that means you are a Reservist and the reason I say that is because you didn't necessarily need to show up that night anyway.  My understanding is that as long as you Parade at least once a month they can't do much.

Technically, from an admin perspective, you are right stellar.

However, it was expected that most members parade every night, or at least 3 weeks, each month.  If you were only there one night a month, consistently, you weren't held in particularly high regard by the CoC when it came to courses, deployments, or unique opportunities that might pop up.

If you attended consistently and were a decent troop, and you didn't come in for a parade night, nobody cared.  Your professional reputation was solid.  If you trained consistently, were a useful member of the unit, and conducted yourself professionally -- one might just say "Oh, hey, Cpl. XX wasn't in tonight."  Nobody cared.

That being said, if you weren't parading regularly, usually the CoC would talk with you about your goals, career aspirations, etc etc.  (A lot of our CoC was in emergency services, and so were quite a few of our members, so there was a decent understanding between the two.) 

A minimum of one night a month, while still meeting the minimum criteria, you weren't considered a useful member of the unit and weren't particularly valued.   :2c:


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stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2020, 18:50:25 »
Technically, from an admin perspective, you are right stellar.

However, it was expected that most members parade every night, or at least 3 weeks, each month.  If you were only there one night a month, consistently, you weren't held in particularly high regard by the CoC when it came to courses, deployments, or unique opportunities that might pop up.

If you attended consistently and were a decent troop, and you didn't come in for a parade night, nobody cared.  Your professional reputation was solid.  If you trained consistently, were a useful member of the unit, and conducted yourself professionally -- one might just say "Oh, hey, Cpl. XX wasn't in tonight."  Nobody cared.

That being said, if you weren't parading regularly, usually the CoC would talk with you about your goals, career aspirations, etc etc.  (A lot of our CoC was in emergency services, and so were quite a few of our members, so there was a decent understanding between the two.) 

A minimum of one night a month, while still meeting the minimum criteria, you weren't considered a useful member of the unit and weren't particularly valued.   :2c:

That makes sense and it's why I push my son to go even when he prefers to stay home and play video games some nights.  3 hours a week isn't much to ask especially when it's his only job.

Offline CanadianTire

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2020, 19:21:26 »
Correct, yes - one night a month. But as others pointed out, that is the bare minimum. Depending on who our CO is at the time, the unit has been told that full attendance is expected. We even had a few years were we would need to submit memos or fill out leave requests if we weren't going to be on exercise.

That said, I have the "misfortune" of being dependable and capable at my job, as well has trying to take as many class A days as possible so the expectation was that I would be working every Wednesday night (to the point where the CQ just stopped asking if I'd be handling company weapons draw and just expected me to be there).
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stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2020, 19:53:03 »
Correct, yes - one night a month. But as others pointed out, that is the bare minimum. Depending on who our CO is at the time, the unit has been told that full attendance is expected. We even had a few years were we would need to submit memos or fill out leave requests if we weren't going to be on exercise.

How can they make you submit a leave pass, what type of leave would that be?  As I said earlier, I'm all for parading as much as you can especially if you have the time available and I tell my son that as well.  But that said, I'm curious from a regulation perspective.  I don't understand how they can do much if you are meeting the minimum requirements.  That would be like putting a person on remedial measures for PT if you just met the minimum requirements on a force test.  Just met the times for example.  I can also see there being consequences if a person never shows up for any ex, but again if you are meeting the minimum I don't see how they can do much.

 

Offline Brihard

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2020, 20:05:31 »
How can they make you submit a leave pass, what type of leave would that be?  As I said earlier, I'm all for parading as much as you can especially if you have the time available and I tell my son that as well.  But that said, I'm curious from a regulation perspective.  I don't understand how they can do much if you are meeting the minimum requirements.  That would be like putting a person on remedial measures for PT if you just met the minimum requirements on a force test.  Just met the times for example.  I can also see there being consequences if a person never shows up for any ex, but again if you are meeting the minimum I don't see how they can do much.

A CO can lawfully order soldiers to parade. Failure to attend sufficiently to be useful can be a performance unit, and handle it through remedial measures. My old unit did it. The ‘once a month’ applies to Non-Effective Strength designation. It does not in and of itself constrain the ability of a commanding officer to command their unit and to manage the performance of the members of their command. If you are ‘just meeting the minimum’, you generally are not worth keeping on strength unless it’s a temporary situation. This is a big factor in why I elected to release before I became a burden on my regiment.
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stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2020, 20:23:10 »
A CO can lawfully order soldiers to parade. Failure to attend sufficiently to be useful can be a performance unit, and handle it through remedial measures. My old unit did it. The ‘once a month’ applies to Non-Effective Strength designation. It does not in and of itself constrain the ability of a commanding officer to command their unit and to manage the performance of the members of their command. If you are ‘just meeting the minimum’, you generally are not worth keeping on strength unless it’s a temporary situation. This is a big factor in why I elected to release before I became a burden on my regiment.

Is there a written policy that states a mbr must parade x amount of says per month or go on x amount of exercises per month or does every unit decide on their own.  One of my friends worked RSS at a unit in southern Ontario a few years ago and he used to say it's hard to plan things because you never knew how many people would really show up for an Ex until the Friday night because people who committed to going the night before often wouldn't show up.
 

Offline Brihard

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2020, 20:48:21 »
Is there a written policy that states a mbr must parade x amount of says per month or go on x amount of exercises per month or does every unit decide on their own.  One of my friends worked RSS at a unit in southern Ontario a few years ago and he used to say it's hard to plan things because you never knew how many people would really show up for an Ex until the Friday night because people who committed to going the night before often wouldn't show up.
 

My CO established such a policy for the unit. There was flexibility where needed. The general expectation was 3/4 of parade nights, And every weekend exercise. Exceptions has the expectation of prior notice except for emergencies. Members who had exceptional circumstances (eg shift workers) were accommodated. Experienced and proven members got a bit more flexibility as long as comms were good.

The underlying philosophy was that at McDonalds or Home Depot, if you don’t show up for work, they fire you. The military should reasonably expect at least a Home Depot degree of dedication.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2020, 21:07:58 »
My CO established such a policy for the unit. There was flexibility where needed. The general expectation was 3/4 of parade nights, And every weekend exercise. Exceptions has the expectation of prior notice except for emergencies. Members who had exceptional circumstances (eg shift workers) were accommodated. Experienced and proven members got a bit more flexibility as long as comms were good.

The underlying philosophy was that at McDonalds or Home Depot, if you don’t show up for work, they fire you. The military should reasonably expect at least a Home Depot degree of dedication.

Interesting, I assumed there would be a national policy and that each CO couldn't make there own rules.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2020, 21:17:07 »
Interesting, I assumed there would be a national policy and that each CO couldn't make there own rules.

Oh my heavens you are a neophyte- kidding.

There’s a lot of wiggle room for a CO.

The words “A Commanding Officer may...” gives them that room.
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stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2020, 21:20:20 »
Oh my heavens you are a neophyte- kidding.

There’s a lot of wiggle room for a CO.

The words “A Commanding Officer may...” gives them that room.


I didn't think it was like that in the Reserves, I understand that a CO has a lot of authority but didn't think they had that much authority over someone on Class A.


Offline Brihard

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2020, 22:36:11 »
Interesting, I assumed there would be a national policy and that each CO couldn't make there own rules.

Check S.294(1) of the NDA.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2020, 22:51:03 »
Check S.294(1) of the NDA.

294 (1) Every officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force who without lawful excuse neglects or refuses to attend any parade or training at the place and hour appointed therefor is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction for each offence, if an officer, to a fine not exceeding fifty dollars and, if a non-commissioned member, to a fine not exceeding twenty-five dollars.

Marginal note:Each absence an offence

(2) Absence from any parade or training referred to in subsection (1) is, in respect of each day on which the absence occurs, a separate offence.


stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2020, 22:53:35 »
I honestly didn't know that.  I think a lot of people wrongly believe as I did that the worse they can do is release the mbr. 

Online Blackadder1916

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2020, 00:03:58 »
I honestly didn't know that.  I think a lot of people wrongly believe as I did that the worse they can do is release the mbr. 


Before you get farther into speculation about using S. 294, I'd suggest that you search for some of the comments made about it on these means by FJAG.

Okay, I'll make it a bit easier for you.  https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,24381.msg1599807.html#msg1599807  and https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,121376.msg1405891.html#msg1405891  are starting points.

There are already a few threads about NES and use of the CSD to encourage reservist attendance or lack thereof.

While, as related by FJAG, charging a reservist under 294 (1) is an empty threat, there are other administrative (and leadership) mechanisms for encouraging pers to parade, or to see them out the door if they don't get the hint.  All it takes is will on the part of a CO.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2020, 07:01:54 »
I should have expounded on that- it’s not my intent to suggest we’re gonna charge reservists who don’t show up to parade. That would be silly. What it communicates to me is there there is an intent to empower COs to make those decisions regarding when training will be and when their people will be expected to attend. The National Defense Act and subordinate regulations contain all the tools necessary for a CO to set and manage performance expectations.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2020, 08:42:14 »
I should have expounded on that- it’s not my intent to suggest we’re gonna charge reservists who don’t show up to parade. That would be silly. What it communicates to me is there there is an intent to empower COs to make those decisions regarding when training will be and when their people will be expected to attend. The National Defense Act and subordinate regulations contain all the tools necessary for a CO to set and manage performance expectations.

With that post, and in reading several discussions/comments over the years here about parading expectations, should there then be some sort of formal amendment (or at least re-visiting of) the minimum standard attendance which is told to new members right when they’re still in the Recruiting office? I continually find this practice confounding even though it doesn’t affect me personally.

If a member is super gung-ho, is involved in everything, parades multiple times a month, and has the flexibility, that’s awesome—that’s great, and they’ll often be recognized in any number of ways. But if a member is content remaining a Pte or Cpl, enjoys low-pressure, doesn’t have the familial and/or civilian employment flexibility needed to accommodate summer taskings, and increased involvement in the unit—is happy with pdeing 1-2x a month, they won’t be looked upon as just as valuable a member as the other guy/gal. So why does CAF keep using the minimum expectation as a selling point (and it’s commonly cited in other types of interactions) when the bare minimum is, in fact, not acceptable? Why not raise the minimum expectation to avoid issues later on for the member and the unit?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 08:55:43 by BeyondTheNow »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2020, 09:21:55 »
Just wondering....

This thread stared on a tangent from another thread.

Is it now drifting from the original tangent?

I'd better break out my sextant.... :)
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Offline BeyondTheNow

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2020, 09:42:43 »
Just wondering....

This thread stared on a tangent from another thread.

Is it now drifting from the original tangent?

I'd better break out my sextant.... :)

‘Like to keep you in suspense... ;D ;)
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2020, 10:19:13 »
I should have expounded on that- it’s not my intent to suggest we’re gonna charge reservists who don’t show up to parade. That would be silly. What it communicates to me is there there is an intent to empower COs to make those decisions regarding when training will be and when their people will be expected to attend. The National Defense Act and subordinate regulations contain all the tools necessary for a CO to set and manage performance expectations.

Just my opinion.
Larger units have the benefit of being able to punt dead weight. Smaller units care so much about "numbers on paper" that they excuse poor attendence that would get these guys fired in any civilian job.

That creates a atmosphere where these "soldiers" parents need to push and prod them to get off their Xbox and go to work.
Because playing video games instead of working doesn't come with any consequence.

Come summer tasking time, units forgive and forget bad attendence (and behavior) and shotgun everyone out to summer tasks and training.

Reserves are their own worst enemy in this regard.
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stellarpanther

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coronavirus thread]
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2020, 10:52:51 »
So thinking about this more, the minimum requirement to parade isn't once a month as is told to people because while they can't release you as NES, if I understand this right, they find a different reason based on the CO of a particular unit creating his own policy.  That doesn't sound right to me.  I guess as an HRA, I like to be able read policy in black and white.
Before someone starts jumping on me go back and read my other comments that said I think people should parade more than just once a month.  Just be up front about it with the troops.  Recruiting needs to start being honest with people and not just worried about filling numbers and create a problem down the road for someone else.


Offline dapaterson

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coronavirus thread]
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2020, 11:36:54 »
There are defined processes within APM145 for NES release which must be followed.  Not overly onerous, but they are time consuming fir the limit HR staff within most PRes units.

That said, many soldiers, on receipt of their first NES letter, will chose to release.

Delays in release processing for part time Army Res members are another problem set, also driven mostly by inadequate personnel committed to the function.
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Offline CanadianTire

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coronavirus thread]
« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2020, 11:56:10 »
A record of minimal attendance has a myriad of effects, from "official" things like being passed over for course (seen it happen), not being considered for deployment (seen it happen, and to bring it back to the original topic) to much more administratively difficult things. We have a member who paraded occasionally for a number of years but never put in much effort. He wanted to deploy. He was passed over because he hadn't shown commitment to training. Fast forward a few years and he hadn't changed. He paraded a minimal amount, often to the point of being considered NES. He decided to transfer to another unit as geographically it was easier for him. Our unit started the process and had him turn in his regimental kit. The unit he wanted to be in hasn't accepted the transfer. So now he is stuck in limbo - not parading with us really and not feeling like a member of our unit, but not being able to parade with his desired unit.

On the other hand, when soldiers that have a record of consistent attendance and participation suddenly stops showing up it raises alarm bells, and the CoC reaches out to ensure everything is okay. I've seen it happen, even when people have communicated a legitimate excuse for every absence.
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Offline Furniture

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coranoviruse thread]
« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2020, 12:14:59 »
One of the big reasons guys (and girls and other) don't want to go is they just got back from their third deployment in four years because some cubicle dweller with a photocopier strapped to his *** and a five doughnut a day habit refuses to step up and take his bite of the crap sammich, and is plain burned out.

Having experienced this personally myself I can attest to it being a real thing. It's not something you'll see in the cubicle farm in Ottawa for the most part, but it exists in the field/sailing/flying world.

In five years posted to the West coast I spend more than two of them at sea(794 Sea days), add in the time spend alongside in ports while deployed/training and the number jumps to closer to three years away. I was completely burnt out, but kept going because I was asked to and I enjoyed the job(mostly). That I didn't get charged or placed on admin measures by the end of my time out there due to my slipping attitude is a minor miracle.

As one of my old bosses liked to say "If everyone takes a bite of the S**t sandwich it's not so bad." Unfortunately not everyone does, so often it's the same people over and over having to eat the whole thing.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Some Weird Swerve About Deployments [from the Coronavirus thread]
« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2020, 12:33:28 »
A record of minimal attendance has a myriad of effects, from "official" things like being passed over for course (seen it happen), not being considered for deployment (seen it happen, and to bring it back to the original topic) to much more administratively difficult things. We have a member who paraded occasionally for a number of years but never put in much effort. He wanted to deploy. He was passed over because he hadn't shown commitment to training. Fast forward a few years and he hadn't changed. He paraded a minimal amount, often to the point of being considered NES. He decided to transfer to another unit as geographically it was easier for him. Our unit started the process and had him turn in his regimental kit. The unit he wanted to be in hasn't accepted the transfer. So now he is stuck in limbo - not parading with us really and not feeling like a member of our unit, but not being able to parade with his desired unit.

On the other hand, when soldiers that have a record of consistent attendance and participation suddenly stops showing up it raises alarm bells, and the CoC reaches out to ensure everything is okay. I've seen it happen, even when people have communicated a legitimate excuse for every absence.

It was an interesting experience watching the 'marginal paraders' come out of the woodwork during the whole AFG thing.

One of them, who I argued should not be supported in his (fervent) wish to be deployed because of what I perceived to be a largely self-interested and inconsistent approach to his part time military commitments, was sent anyways.

Tragically, he was seriously wounded on the next tour.
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