Author Topic: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 10596 times)

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #100 on: September 02, 2020, 15:31:02 »
Distracts them from the pandemic and economy.

At least until closer to when they are voting, when he can swoop in for a maximum effect for the boost in the polls. That's really cynical but I think both sides down in the US are really that calculating.

Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #101 on: September 02, 2020, 23:01:58 »
At least until closer to when they are voting, when he can swoop in for a maximum effect for the boost in the polls.

In 2018, his chosen narrative was a caravan of Latin gangs preparing to overrun the border.

Remember? "A very big percentage of men. Young. Strong. People that are in gangs."

In 2020, it's "thugs wearing these dark uniforms, black uniforms with gear" had travelled by airplane to the RNC "to do big damage".

Thugs operating in "dark shadows".

The fear tactic did not work well for Republicans in the 2018 midterms. But, maybe will work this time?



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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #102 on: September 03, 2020, 06:28:29 »
Since then half their country is either on fire, spray painted, or smashed. Almost looks like the work of thugs, at least to my untrained eye.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #103 on: September 03, 2020, 09:05:34 »
Since then half their country is either on fire, spray painted, or smashed. Almost looks like the work of thugs, at least to my untrained eye.

There was unrest during the eight years of Obama and Biden. But, I don't remember it being as bad as under this individual.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 09:17:20 by mariomike »
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Remius

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #104 on: September 03, 2020, 09:19:02 »
There was unrest during the eight years of Obama and Biden. But, I don't remember it being as bad as under this president.

Or Bush for that matter with the Rodney King riots....

This time seems far worse.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #105 on: September 03, 2020, 09:39:09 »
Or Bush for that matter with the Rodney King riots....

This time seems far worse.

And that was almost 30 years ago. Time flies!  :)
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Remius

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #106 on: September 03, 2020, 09:59:05 »
And that was almost 30 years ago. Time flies!  :)

An article at the time highlights some of the Bush administration's handling.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-05-01-mn-1416-story.html

Quote:

Instead, Bush appeared to be hopeful that by using his presidential pulpit he might be able to help restore calm and order in the riot area. In his statements, aides said, he hopes “to be of any help that he could in terms of quelling the riots.”

“I will keep telling the country that we must stand up against lawlessness and crime, wherever it takes place,” Bush said.

In their comments on the case, Bush and White House officials appeared to be trying to strike a careful balance between urging respect for the legal system and expressing empathy with those angered by the outcome of the case.

“We’re asking respect and reason in terms of viewing the verdict,” Fitzwater said. “But on the other hand we have to understand the frustration people feel.”




Optio

Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #107 on: September 03, 2020, 10:11:40 »
An article at the time highlights some of the Bush administration's handling.

In their comments on the case, Bush and White House officials appeared to be trying to strike a careful balance between urging respect for the legal system and expressing empathy with those angered by the outcome of the case.

That's what great presidents do.

George Bush Sr calls Trump a 'blowhard' and voted for Clinton
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41871958
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #108 on: September 03, 2020, 10:24:41 »
There was unrest during the eight years of Obama and Biden. But, I don't remember it being as bad as under this individual.

I also don't remember people having a lot of pent-up stress and frustration from being locked in their homes for months and the economy being destroyed back then.

I also don't remember identity politics being as much of a thing back then and causing as much division and tension.

Also don't remember the media constantly villainizing the president and actively promoting or at least white-washing the rioting.

Don't remember police abandoning precinct houses and allowing them to be burnt down, or abandoning parts of cities to allow rioting to go on unmolested.

Lots has changed since the Obama years.
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Offline Remius

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #109 on: September 03, 2020, 10:36:33 »

Lots has changed since the Obama years.

Specifically, the guy who is President.
Optio

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #110 on: September 03, 2020, 10:47:49 »
Specifically, the guy who is President.

Trump owns a big piece of this, to be sure, as the man in charge.

But there's a lot of factors that I've listed that are not his doing.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #111 on: September 03, 2020, 10:48:25 »
And he did it all in only three years.

That's what  happen when you are in the officer category the Prussian General Staff calls "Stupid and Active", who screw up whatever they touch because they are stupid and cause a lot of problems because they are active.
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Offline QV

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #112 on: September 03, 2020, 11:13:48 »
Much of this wouldn't have happened under an HRC presidency only because there wouldn't likely have been several soft coup attempts by the losing side like there has been for the last 4 years.  Much of the problems going are a combination of the fake news media and corrupt bureaucrats and politicians working together trying to wreck a presidency.  One side had taken this far beyond mere "politics" because they were sure they were going to win so it would have been buried and some of those folks rewarded.  But the unthinkable happened and it's been damage control and deflection ever since. 

   
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #113 on: September 03, 2020, 12:55:08 »
It's worse because everyone is using it for political leverage.
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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #114 on: September 03, 2020, 17:20:20 »
There was unrest during the eight years of Obama and Biden. But, I don't remember it being as bad as under this individual.

Hi MM

Do you mean the tea party with their mean signs about President Obama? ;D
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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2020, 18:12:36 »
And he did it all in only three years.

That's what  happen when you are in the officer category the Prussian General Staff calls "Stupid and Active", who screw up whatever they touch because they are stupid and cause a lot of problems because they are active.

You inspired me to check out 'quote investigator', which was fun.  I wonder, does that make you 'clever and lazy' and me 'clever and industrious'? :)

Quote Investigator: The earliest evidence located by QI appeared in January 1933 in a periodical called “Army, Navy & Air Force Gazette” based in Great Britain. A passage attributed to German General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord described the placing of officers into four classes.

The text was reprinted under the title “Selecting Officers” in the “United States Naval Institute Proceedings” in March 1933 and in the “Review of Military Literature: The Command and General Staff School Quarterly” in September 1933. Boldface has been added to excerpts:

General Freiherr von Hammerstein-Equord, the present chief of the German Army, has a method of selecting officers which strikes us as being highly original and peculiarly un-­Prussian. According to Exchange, a Berlin newspaper has printed the following as his answer to a query as to how he judged his officers: “I divide my officers into four classes as follows: The clever, the industrious, the lazy, and the stupid. Each officer always possesses two of these qualities.

Those who are clever and industrious I appoint to the General Staff. Use can under certain circumstances be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy qualifies for the highest leadership posts. He has the requisite nerves and the mental clarity for difficult decisions. But whoever is stupid and industrious must be got rid of, for he is too dangerous.”

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/28/clever-lazy/
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #116 on: September 04, 2020, 00:18:43 »
Further to the Portland shooting incident, there are early reports that Michael Forest Reinoehl the admitted Antifa shooter of Aaron J. Danielson in Portland a few days ago was killed in the course of being arrested on a charge of murder. Reinoehl admitted to the shooting in an interview with Vice earlier today but claimed it was in self-defence.

See here.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #117 on: September 04, 2020, 12:26:48 »
Sounds a lot like the suspected shooter had a mental breakdown and decided on suicide by cop.

Offline Remius

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #118 on: September 04, 2020, 14:13:06 »
Details I read was he made a run for it when they went to arrest him.  Pulled a gun when pulled him over.
 
So yeah maybe suicide by cop.
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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #119 on: September 04, 2020, 17:16:46 »
Had he gone home after the shooting, contacted a lawyer and then surrendered to police, he would likely be able to frame the incident as self-defense and judging by the confusion existing on events, it would be quite possible that they could introduce enough reasonable doubt to forgo the charge.

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #120 on: September 06, 2020, 18:58:49 »
Attached, if anyone is interested, is the Criminal Indictment against Kyle Rittenhouse containing his alleged crimes, plus, a summary of what happened that night.
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Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #121 on: September 09, 2020, 13:48:51 »
Had he gone home after the shooting, contacted a lawyer and then surrendered to police, he would likely be able to frame the incident as self-defense and judging by the confusion existing on events, it would be quite possible that they could introduce enough reasonable doubt to forgo the charge.

Aaron J. Danielson?

Considering that he finds himself on the "correct" side of the political divide ("left of centre") I think that if he had behaved as you describe, he would have had a very very high chance of the DA not even pressing charges.

Offline CloudCover

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #122 on: September 22, 2020, 21:56:24 »
Fightback.law has put together a video that in their view somewhat accurately portrays what happened with K. Rittenhouse. 
https://fightback.law/news/

Edit: link is under DOS attack. Try this: https://twitter.com/RubinReport/status/1308581276769685504?s=20

Note the abundance of hangovers N.S. and apparently a rifle in possession of the protestors. 

Hopefully someday these street gun battles will end.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 22:00:36 by CloudCover »
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Offline boot12

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2020, 08:08:52 »
An update from the Associated Press: Kenosha shooter's defense portrays him as 'American patriot'

Highlights from the article (but you should really read the whole article): (Underline and bolding mine [for separate reasons]):

Quote
The way lawyers for Kyle Rittenhouse tell it, he wasn't just a scared teenager acting in self-defense when he shot to death two Kenosha, Wisconsin, protesters. He was a courageous defender of liberty, a patriot exercising his right to bear arms amid rioting in the streets.

17-year-old citizen is being sacrificed by politicians, but it's not Kyle Rittenhouse they are after. Their end game is to strip away the constitutional right of all citizens to defend our communities, says the voice-over at the end of a video released this week by a group tied to Rittenhouse's legal team.

"Kyle Rittenhouse will go down in American history alongside that brave unknown patriot ... who fired "The Shot Heard Round the World", lead attorney John Pierce wrote this month in a tweet he later deleted. The Second American Revolution against Tyranny has begun."


But such dramatic rhetoric that has helped raise nearly $2 million for Rittenhouse's defense may not work with a jury considering charges that could put the teen in prison for life. Legal experts say there could be big risks in turning a fairly straightforward self-defense case into a fight for freedom that mirrors the law-and-order reelection theme President Donald Trump has struck amid a wave of protests over racial injustice.

...

Eric Creizman, a former partner at Pierce's firm, said the heated language in the tweets is not surprising because of his former boss%u2019 tendency toward hyperbole, though he wonders if it will backfire.

"The question really should focus on whether this guy is guilty of what they're charging him with,he said, instead of making it into a political issue.

One politically charged tactic critics have attacked as a longshot is Pierce's promise to fight a charge of underage firearm possession, a misdemeanor, by arguing U.S. law allows for an "unorganized militia." Rittenhouse wielded a semi-automatic rifle.

Some experts have even questioned whether the teenager's team of four attorneys will feel pressure to hold back from making a plea bargain out of fear of disrupting the patriotic narrative and disappointing donors.


"There is a temptation to shape court arguments to keep the money flowing while the battle is ongoing, said Richard Cayo, a Milwaukee attorney who helps other lawyers in ethics cases. It puts lawyers at risk of trying to serve two masters."

Both Pierce and Wood have ties to Trump's orbit and his brand of GOP politics, though it's not clear if that played any role in their involvement in Rittenhouse's case and how it is being handled. For his part, Trump has made statements appearing to support Rittenhouse's claim of self-defense, saying the young man probably would have been killed.

...

More at link.


Throughout my adult life I have always taken the middle road with regards to the difficult topic of adult vs. juvenile sentencing for late-teens, and have always seen compelling arguments in favour of both positions. As a rule I lean towards the rehabilitation model of justice vs. the retribution model, but I acknowledge that both have their place and in reality require a case-by-case approach.

I have always been a strong believer in the philosophy of western justice, specifically with regards to the right to a fair trial. This includes the right to a competent defense for all defendants, even if we need to pay Public Defenders a proper salary to attract competent defense attorneys for all persons no matter what their alleged crimes.


While I am certainly not a lawyer, my personal belief from the known facts thus far leads me to believe that Mr. Rittenhouse is likely guilty of a number of US crimes, and I cannot imagine a scenario in which I as a 17 year old would feel compelled to enter another state (with a firearm that I cannot legally cross state lines with) to defend property that is a) not mine, and b) I have not been directly asked by the property owner for assistance.

To bring this all back to the quoted article, I believe that Mr. Rittenhouse is entitled to the best available defense in this criminal matter. Given the information in the article, I am worried that he has been seduced into replacing his assigned public defender with a high-priced (even if pro-bono in this instance) conservative attorney who is more concerned with trying to make a name for themselves and/or kiss Trump/Barr's ring than to do what's best for their client.

Time will tell I suppose.



EDIT: Trying to fix weird BB Code artifacts from importing a news article. Read the linked article for the most accurate version.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 08:33:09 by boot12 »

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2020, 10:47:09 »
Quote from: boot12
and I cannot imagine a scenario in which I as a 17 year old would feel compelled to enter another state (with a firearm that I cannot legally cross state lines with) to defend property that is a) not mine, and b) I have not been directly asked by the property owner for assistance.

Ironically your example also describes the US military.
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