Author Topic: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 10593 times)

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2020, 10:29:02 »
It's certainly gone that way in the past few years. 

When people are allowed to travel internationally without restrictions again, I wonder how much the US will have to do to entice tourists back.  I'm sure there are some people who are thinking "well, I'm not going to a place like that".

I went to Seattle just before all the lockdowns.  I had been there almost a decade ago and wow, what a change.  The downtown is now a complete dump.  Sadly Victoria is well on its way to replicating that.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2020, 10:54:53 »
One of the Canadian left's favourite talking heads on gun policy, Wendy Cukier of the Coalition for Gun Control (Confiscation?) has stated that lawful sport shooters are more dangerous than criminals because they are proficient.

I get the logic behind that, I think I'm pretty proficient myself, but logically police officers should be proficient too.

The officer involved in the latest shooting missed something like 3 of 7 shots from 3 feet away, of a man leaning in a car.
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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2020, 11:05:24 »
One of the Canadian left's favourite talking heads on gun policy, Wendy Cukier of the Coalition for Gun Control (Confiscation?) has stated that lawful sport shooters are more dangerous than criminals because they are proficient.

My point was that, had that guy been, oh I dunno, just for shiggles let's say a marine with three trips to Fallujah behind him, would have dealt with that in a whole different way, as a high pressure scenario wouldn't effect him the same way. There would have been stacks of bodies there.  I would argue that well trained proficient shooters are less dangerous to the general public, not more. Any numpty can spray and pray into a crowd the moment they feel the slightest bit put upon. I completely 100% disagree with the CBCs "expert".
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2020, 12:33:06 »
A breakdown of the event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSU9ZvnudFE

You note that even under great stress he only shot at his direct attackers. I do agree with Colion Noir that a 17 year old should not have been in that situation and that the older people there in the group defending property should have kept him back or away from danger. My gut feeling is that he is going to win the self-defense plea and that he is going to have to deal with PTSD for a long time and hope he gets help.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2020, 13:08:08 »
>I wonder what was going through those morons heads when they decided to pursue that COA?

"I'm going to kick his ***!" ?

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Offline FJAG

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2020, 14:08:53 »
A breakdown of the event https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSU9ZvnudFE

You note that even under great stress he only shot at his direct attackers. I do agree with Colion Noir that a 17 year old should not have been in that situation and that the older people there in the group defending property should have kept him back or away from danger. My gut feeling is that he is going to win the self-defense plea and that he is going to have to deal with PTSD for a long time and hope he gets help.

A good analysis with the facts available at the time.

Is anyone else surprised that there is such a thing as "concealed carry" insurance available? Ain't free enterprise glorious?

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2020, 14:14:19 »
Perhaps after years of firearm control advocates calling for mandatory liability insurance (ideally at punitive rates), someone thought, "Hey, good idea."
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Online shawn5o

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2020, 14:48:21 »
The lad's lawyer speaks up


Kyle Rittenhouse Was Working as a Lifeguard in Kenosha the Day of the Shooting, Went to Clean Vandalism at School After Work

Cassandra Fairbanks
August 28, 2020 at 6:46pm

Kyle Rittenhouse is a community lifeguard who was working in Kenosha the day of the shooting.

This simple fact destroys the narrative being peddled by the mainstream media that he had “crossed state lines” to harm the rioters.

In a statement by Rittenhouse’s legal team at Pierce Bainbridge, provided to the Gateway Pundit, they explained that “after Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters.”



“Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence,” the statement continues. “Business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops. Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines.”



After the situation seemed to be diffused, Rittenhouse became increasingly concerned about people who were injured at the gas station, so he went in that direction with his first aid kit. He helped those he could find who were injured, either by administering aid or directing them which way to go for help beyond what he could offer.



“As Kyle proceeded towards the second mechanic’s shop, he was accosted by multiple rioters who recognized that he had been attempting to protect a business the mob wanted to destroy. This outraged the rioters and created a mob now determined to hurt Kyle. They began chasing him down. Kyle attempted to get away, but he could not do so quickly enough. Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle. He reacted instantaneously and justifiably with his weapon to protect himself, firing and striking the attacker,” Pierce explains.


“Kyle stopped to ensure care for the wounded attacker but faced a growing mob gesturing towards him. He realized he needed to flee for his safety and his survival. Another attacker struck Kyle from behind as he fled down the street. Kyle turned as the mob pressed in on him and he fell to the ground,” his legal team says. “One attacker kicked Kyle on the ground while he was on the ground. Yet another bashed him over the head with a skateboard. Several rioters tried to disarm Kyle. In fear for his life and concerned the crowd would either continue to shoot at him or even use his own weapon against him, Kyle had no choice but to fire multiple rounds towards his immediate attackers, striking two, including one armed attacker. The rest of the mob began to disperse upon hearing the additional gunshots.”

Rittenhouse then attempted to turn himself in, but was told to keep moving. He went and turned himself in to his local police that evening.



Rittenhouse is now being represented by some of the best legal minds in the country at Pierce Bainbridge, with help from Nicholas Sandmann’s lawyer Lin Wood.

On Friday, his legal team obtained a several-week continuance of his extradition hearing to September 25th. The lawyers say that this is an attempt to slow the rush to assassinate his character and destroy his life.


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/08/kyle-rittenhouse-working-lifeguard-kenosha-day-shooting-went-clean-vandalism-school-work/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailyam&utm_content=daily
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2020, 15:08:56 »

Is anyone else surprised that there is such a thing as "concealed carry" insurance available? Ain't free enterprise glorious?

 :cheers:

Not at all, it can easily cost $150,000+ to clear your name in a justified defensive shooting, what it does is puts the average person on a more level playing field against activist prosecutors who have a bias against self defense. Here in Canada, people plead to lesser charges to avoid trying to fight the mostly unlimited resource of the Crown even in cases they might win if they had the resources to fight it.
A lot of the CCW course include components on what to do after a self defense shooting or just using a gun in self defense without pulling the trigger which is the majority of times used.

 https://ccwsafe.com/blog/what-next--what-to-do-after-a-self-defense-shooting

Offline Haggis

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2020, 17:50:34 »
I get the logic behind that, I think I'm pretty proficient myself, but logically police officers should be proficient too.

Proficiency costs money.  I would daresay there are almost as many firearms qualification standards for police as there are states in the union and counties in each state.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2020, 19:22:34 »
Proficiency costs money.  I would daresay there are almost as many firearms qualification standards for police as there are states in the union and counties in each state.
The Sheriffs in BC were pulled back to pistol requals every 18 months to save money, it consisted of 50 rd course of fire. I took him to a IPSC Skills and drills night where we each burned through 300 rds of ammo. He said in one night he shot more than 5 years on the force. In my experience cops with pistols are either very, very good. Or very, very bad. Does not seem to be much in-between.

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2020, 19:32:39 »


In my experience cops with pistols are either very, very good. Or very, very bad. Does not seem to be much in-between.

It's going to get worse once the financial costs of COVID-19, the political costs of the current and upcoming gun bans are known and the leftist led defunding begins.  No money for training. No money for ammunition and no places to shoot.
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2020, 19:34:29 »
The Sheriffs in BC were pulled back to pistol requals every 18 months to save money, it consisted of 50 rd course of fire. I took him to a IPSC Skills and drills night where we each burned through 300 rds of ammo. He said in one night he shot more than 5 years on the force. In my experience cops with pistols are either very, very good. Or very, very bad. Does not seem to be much in-between.

I had to do the same the last time I went overseas. Spent  hundreds of dollars worth of ammo on my personal AR15 and Sig 9mm to make up for the lack of training and practice during predeployment.
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2020, 06:23:09 »
Very interesting to hear the other side of the story about Rittenhouse.

The radical left is way too quick to push half truths together and rush in with false conclusions. Very dangerous mind set.
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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2020, 06:58:56 »
Excellent balanced article on this sh!t sandwich

https://www.bullshido.net/anatomy-of-a-catastrophe/
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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2020, 08:35:28 »
Is anyone else surprised that there is such a thing as "concealed carry" insurance available? Ain't free enterprise glorious?

A few years ago I was visiting a good friend who was posted OUTCAN in the US (she is a member here as well).  On arrival, and knowing in advance what I do for a living on civvy street, her American boyfriend struck up a discussion about CCW training, equipment, laws and liabilities (they lived in a "shall issue" state, about 40 minutes apart).  I asked if he had CCW insurance.  He said it wasn't required in his state but that "I suppose my house insurance would cover me".  That's a pretty big risk living in the most litigious country on Earth.

At the other end of the scale, a retired CAF Infantry Sgt friend who lives and works in one of the most gun friendly states in the union has his CCW permit and is insured up the hoop for it as a condition of licencing.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2020, 09:50:35 »
The radical left is way too quick to push half truths together and rush in with false conclusions.

Everyone has a opinion. This is the only fact known to the public,

Quote
On August 26, Rittenhouse was arrested in his home state of Illinois on charges of first-degree intentional homicide in the shootings on August 25, according to Lake County, Illinois Clerk of Courts public records. He was labeled a "fugitive from justice" in the complaint, which states that he "fled the state of Wisconsin with intent to avoid prosecution for that offense." He was assigned a public defender and initially scheduled to appear at an extradition hearing on August 28. On that day, a judge granted a request to delay the hearing until September 25. Under Wisconsin state law, he would be charged as an adult.

The complaint against him lists six charges, including first-degree intentional homicide, first-degree reckless homicide, and attempted homicide. Each felony charge comes with a "use of a dangerous weapon" modifier, which invokes a Wisconsin law that prescribes an addition of no more than five years of imprisonment for each of the charges if found guilty. Possession of a dangerous weapon as a minor, a misdemeanor, is also charged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_protests#Fatal_shooting_of_protesters

As always, all suspects are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.


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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2020, 10:36:18 »
A fugitive that turned himself over to the police as soon as possible and then released that night, yea that really "fleeing"

Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2020, 11:17:00 »
For anyone interested in reading the criminal complaint filed by Kenosha County, Wisconsin,
https://journaltimes.com/click-here-to-read-the-criminal-complaint-filed-against-kyle-rittenhouse-in-kenosha-county/pdf_46ff33b7-0bd7-55e6-8f2f-9ded0582862f.html

A fugitive that turned himself over to the police as soon as possible and then released that night, yea that really "fleeing"

Quote
He is wanted in Kenosha County on accusations of first-degree intentional homicide after having "fled the state of Wisconsin with the intent to avoid prosecution for that offense," according to court documents.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/08/27/906566596/alleged-kenosha-shooter-fervently-supported-blue-lives-joined-local-militia



« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 11:33:31 by mariomike »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2020, 11:35:53 »
For anyone interested in reading the criminal complaint filed by Kenosha County, Wisconsin,
https://journaltimes.com/click-here-to-read-the-criminal-complaint-filed-against-kyle-rittenhouse-in-kenosha-county/pdf_46ff33b7-0bd7-55e6-8f2f-9ded0582862f.html

Interesting, thank you. No real game changers in that. It does sound as if the first shooting occurred in the context of the accused trying to remove himself from the situation, and with the person shot reaching to try to grab his gun.

I'm not sure how Wisconsin law will play out a self defense claim in the case where the accused was unlawfully in possession of the firearm- so far as I can tell a 17 year old cannot legally open carry an AR in Wisconsin.

The two murder charges are both first degree/intentional. I don't know how the hell they think they can make that case in light of the shooter being in continuous retreat. His counsel will have an easy time arguing that he reasonably perceived an immediate threat to his safety.

I think he faces the greatest jeopardy in the first shooting. The second/third seem much more clear cut.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2020, 11:39:20 »
For anyone interested in reading the criminal complaint filed by Kenosha County, Wisconsin,

Criminal records of the two victims are interesting too.

Huber
2012
1. Second degree recklessly endangering safety, modifier use of a weapon and domestic abuse
2. Strangulation and suffocation, modifier domestic abuse
3. False imprisonment, modifiers domestic abuse and use of a dangerous weapon
4. Battery, modifier domestic abuse and use of a dangerous weapon
5. Disorderly conduct, modifier use of a dangerous weapon and domestic abuse
6. Disorderly conduct, modifier domestic abuse

2018
1. Battery, modifier repeater and domestic abuse
2. Disorderly conduct, modifier repeater and domestic abuse

It's just supposition but I don't feel like he was trying to make a citizens arrest.


The other gentlemen who passed away apparently has an open criminal case on battery, disorderly conduct and domestic abuse charges but I haven't seen or read anything about that shooting.

« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 11:58:41 by Jarnhamar »
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2020, 11:42:09 »
Interesting, thank you.

For those of us of a certain age, it reminds me a little bit of the "subway vigilante" aka "four on the floor".

Criminal records of the two victims is interesting too.

Thank-you. Is that for two? I only see Huber mentioned.

Can you post a link to your source of information?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 11:58:11 by mariomike »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2020, 12:00:22 »
For those of us of a certain age, it reminds me a little bit of the "subway vigilante" aka "four on the floor".

Thank-you. Is that for two? I only see Huber mentioned.

Can you post a link to your source of information?

Huber's criminal record was up on the Youtube video from Donut Operator posted earlier. The other was just a statement pulled off a news site.
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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2020, 12:03:47 »
Huber's criminal record was up on the Youtube video from Donut Operator posted earlier. The other was just a statement pulled off a news site.

If you don't mind me asking, who is "Donut Operator"?
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2020, 12:08:13 »
He's a hardcore PC gamer (also ex-cop and SWAT team member).

His video and summary of the incident is posted on the first post of this thread, you should check out the video.

https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,132908.0.html
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