Author Topic: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0  (Read 10595 times)

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Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2020, 12:15:15 »
Saw this in Canadian gun politics,

But two people were murdered and a couple of reasons why are that the kid was mentally ill and he exercized his right to carry his AR-15 on Main street.

How do you know that?
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Donald H

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2020, 13:07:19 »
When you map out the terrain where Huber smashed Rittenhouse with his skateboard, 200m more in the direction that Rittenhouse was walking was a fleet of police tactical response vehicles and cruisers and what appeared to be a very large police force.  I have a hard time buying the argument that Huber and Grosskreutz we’re trying to effect a citizen’s arrest for Rosenbaum’s shooting earlier, as the most prudent action would have been for one of the observers of the first event to run towards the police concentration to identify Rittenhouse to police.  I suspect that had they done so, neither Huber nor Grosskreutz would have been shot, Huber fatally.

I agree with FJAG and others, there is enough that went on in the incident that conviction of Rittenhouse’s murder charge is likely not the slam dunk that many believe it to be.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Good2Golf, you asked on another thread why I refer to the shooter as mentally ill.
I had heard the suggestion by the media somewhere and I then thought that it was accurate, and so repeated it. However, I would suggest that me proclaiming he had to be mentally ill is no more egregious than proclaiming he was acting in self defense or he deliberately committed homocide, as he has been charged. Suggesting that he is mentally ill is not my decision to make and so if it's considered objectionable then I won't repeat it here on this thread.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
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Online Good2Golf

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2020, 13:34:45 »
There’s a difference in word use when one says someone was behaving in a manner the makes others question their sanity/mental health, compared to repeatedly and consistently using it as an adjective phrase about the individual. It’s a free world so if you feel comfortable continuing to use it, keep going, however, others may judge you as purporting unfounded accusations without anything other than ‘it’s my opinion.’

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2020, 13:44:00 »
>This is the only fact known to the public,

Every second of video is a fact known to the public, unless you believe it is CGI.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

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Offline Donald H

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2020, 13:47:16 »
There’s a difference in word use when one says someone was behaving in a manner the makes others question their sanity/mental health, compared to repeatedly and consistently using it as an adjective phrase about the individual. It’s a free world so if you feel comfortable continuing to use it, keep going, however, others may judge you as purporting unfounded accusations without anything other than ‘it’s my opinion.’

:2c:

Regards
G2G

The shooter's defense so far seems to be 'self defense' instead of claiming mental illness, but so far that's probably not official.

 :cheers:
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
~Mark Twain.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2020, 13:47:55 »
>I would suggest that me proclaiming he had to be mentally ill is no more egregious than proclaiming he was acting in self defense or he deliberately committed homocide

You suggest incorrectly.  I can comfortably conclude from the available video that he was attempting to retreat, and acted in self-defence.  If self-defence is impermissible after clearly attempting to retreat - regardless of any duty to do so or not - then self-defence is entirely toothless.

So there is evidence for that conclusion.  Evidence for assertion of mental illness?

Conventional media frig stuff up regularly.  Read and listen to media with that in mind.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline Donald H

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2020, 14:07:18 »
I can comfortably conclude from the available video that he was attempting to retreat, and acted in self-defence.

Which video Brad? The one you refer to can't be a video of him shooting a person in the head and then radioing that "I just killed somebofy". (exact words may be different)

I don't know if another video exists but maybe you do?
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
~Mark Twain.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2020, 14:20:32 »
Which video Brad? The one you refer to can't be a video of him shooting a person in the head and then radioing that "I just killed somebofy". (exact words may be different)

I don't know if another video exists but maybe you do?

Here is a suggestion:

Why not use Google (a fantastic search engine btw) and watch every video presently available that covers the incident?  There are a number of great videos out there that capture the entirety of this event.  Maybe then, you can formulate an opinion with a complete set of facts.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2020, 14:33:58 »
>The one you refer to can't be a video of him shooting a person in the head and then radioing that "I just killed somebofy".

I don't know of one which shows Rittenhouse shooting Rosenbaum in the head.  What is amply available is the one in which Rosenbaum chases Rittenhouse in amongst some parked cars, and a shot fire by someone other than Rittenhouse is heard.  Marry that up with what McGinnis had to say: "McGinnis said that the unarmed guy (Rosenbaum) was trying to get the defendant’s gun." 

I'm comfortable with "reasonable attempt to retreat" and "self-defence".
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

Offline FJAG

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2020, 22:13:33 »
This maybe should have it's own thread but seems to go in the same vein as vigilanteish people showing up at protests and doing stupid things that lead to their deaths.

In Portland today a large group of Trumpers decided to drive through a BLM protest. Amongst the crowd were a number of members of Patriot Prayer who are far right wingers with a history of these types of things.

Amongst that group was an individual named Aaron Danielson (but also identified as Jay Bishop which allegedly is a pseudonym used within the group) who together with a friend was walking around the downtown area allegedly spraying people with mace or pepper or bear spray. This is video of him being fatally shot by what was (again allegedly) an Antifa protester in response to being sprayed. This website has perhaps one of the clearest copies of the video (there's almost always a video these days) of the shooting (I take what's said in it with a barrel of salt). Note the video is in two parts with the aftermath first and the shooting a bit further on.

The shooting itself is at 1:14 of the video. Danielson is the man in light shorts and a dark shirt walking from left to right towards a person (in a light top also walking left to right) who eventually shoots him. Just before the gun shots you can see what appears to be a cloud of gas coming from Danielson and moving up and towards the shooter followed almost immediately by two gun shots. Danielson then turns away and walks a few steps before collapsing while what appears to be the shooter runs away to the right.

It's all very premature and the spin is already starting but yet another example of Darwanism at play.

 :facepalm:
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2020, 22:36:08 »
This maybe should have it's own thread but seems to go in the same vein as vigilanteish people showing up at protests and doing stupid things that lead to their deaths.


It's all very premature and the spin is already starting but yet another example of Darwanism at play.

 :facepalm:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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Offline PuckChaser

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2020, 22:50:35 »
The shooting itself is at 1:14 of the video. Danielson is the man in light shorts and a dark shirt walking from left to right towards a person (in a light top also walking left to right) who eventually shoots him. Just before the gun shots you can see what appears to be a cloud of gas coming from Danielson and moving up and towards the shooter followed almost immediately by two gun shots. Danielson then turns away and walks a few steps before collapsing while what appears to be the shooter runs away to the right.

It's all very premature and the spin is already starting but yet another example of Darwanism at play.

 :facepalm:

That cloud is a pretty big stretch and awfully convenient conclusion to support a view of "Trumpers" causing mayhem. Are you trying to say that the shooter was justified in using deadly force because he was getting maced? That alleged cloud of mace looks to occur almost simultaneous with the first gunshot. That means unless the shooter was a Navy SEAL, he was already holding the firearm as under 2 seconds from draw to 2 shots is something that takes years to practice.

I'll throw your assumption here a loop with actual logic in that its more likely that Aaron Danielson (he has a name; its awfully disgusting to dehumanize a murder victim as just a "Trumper") turned to face someone who said something to him, noticed the individual had a firearm drawn and tried to mace him (if he even had mace) as the only thing he could do to protect against an immediate deadly force threat. There's no drawing motion from the shooter (unless he's appendix carrying as his back is to camera) and that shooter doesn't grab his face or act like he's been maced so either it missed, it was ineffective or the mace doesn't exist.

Offline FJAG

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2020, 23:25:06 »
That cloud is a pretty big stretch and awfully convenient conclusion to support a view of "Trumpers" causing mayhem. Are you trying to say that the shooter was justified in using deadly force because he was getting maced? That alleged cloud of mace looks to occur almost simultaneous with the first gunshot. That means unless the shooter was a Navy SEAL, he was already holding the firearm as under 2 seconds from draw to 2 shots is something that takes years to practice.

I'll throw your assumption here a loop with actual logic in that its more likely that Aaron Danielson (he has a name; its awfully disgusting to dehumanize a murder victim as just a "Trumper") turned to face someone who said something to him, noticed the individual had a firearm drawn and tried to mace him (if he even had mace) as the only thing he could do to protect against an immediate deadly force threat. There's no drawing motion from the shooter (unless he's appendix carrying as his back is to camera) and that shooter doesn't grab his face or act like he's been maced so either it missed, it was ineffective or the mace doesn't exist.

Feel free to dismount from your high horse.

Nowhere do I even suggest that the shooting was justified. To you it's simultaneous; not so to me. The spray starts toward the ground, then comes up and then there's a shot. I'll grant that with the streets and buildings and distance, sounds can be deceiving but quite clearly at the start of the video, Danielson was already moving towards the shooter while the shooter was walking at angle to the right and not towards Danielson.

Read my post again re Danielson's name. I start by saying that there was a caravan parade of Trumpers. There was. I then say that it included Patriot Prayer members. It did. And then I said that Aaron Danielson was a part of that group. He was. He was a victim and he was a Trumper. Nowhere do I attempt to dehumanize him as "just a Trumper". Those are your words and thoughts, not mine.

As to your actual logic - well sure. That's undoubtedly what happened. Thanks for correcting me. How could I possibly have missed all those things that you saw.

As I said. "The spin has already started."

 :cheers:
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2020, 00:24:32 »
This maybe should have it's own thread but seems to go in the same vein as vigilanteish people showing up at protests and doing stupid things that lead to their deaths.

In Portland today a large group of Trumpers decided to drive through a BLM protest. Amongst the crowd were a number of members of Patriot Prayer who are far right wingers with a history of these types of things.

Amongst that group was an individual named Aaron Danielson (but also identified as Jay Bishop which allegedly is a pseudonym used within the group) who together with a friend was walking around the downtown area allegedly spraying people with mace or pepper or bear spray. This is video of him being fatally shot by what was (again allegedly) an Antifa protester in response to being sprayed. This website has perhaps one of the clearest copies of the video (there's almost always a video these days) of the shooting (I take what's said in it with a barrel of salt). Note the video is in two parts with the aftermath first and the shooting a bit further on.

The shooting itself is at 1:14 of the video. Danielson is the man in light shorts and a dark shirt walking from left to right towards a person (in a light top also walking left to right) who eventually shoots him. Just before the gun shots you can see what appears to be a cloud of gas coming from Danielson and moving up and towards the shooter followed almost immediately by two gun shots. Danielson then turns away and walks a few steps before collapsing while what appears to be the shooter runs away to the right.

It's all very premature and the spin is already starting but yet another example of Darwanism at play.

 :facepalm:

Maybe the left will begin to appreciate the 2nd amendment yet.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2020, 08:04:44 »
Maybe the left will begin to appreciate the 2nd amendment yet.

The civil war has begun. Its just not like that last civil war they had.

This one may last longer.
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Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2020, 10:29:05 »
I wasn't online all weekend, so I am just working my way through this thread, answering posts directed at me as I come to them ... so I'll be starting with responding to stuff on page one. In response to my initial post ...

He had just shot someone else in the head.  The crowd were trying to disarm him.  He has zero claim to self defence.

The first guy -- Joseph Rosenbaum A.K.A. "JoJo" -- was also a self-defence shooting in my view based on the videos I've seen. Again, this is all broken down in great detail from multiple angles in the "Donut Operator" video I linked to.

The first shooting happened when Rittenhouse was being chased/attacked by several people including Rosenbaum. Someone (not Rittenhouse -- you can see the muzzle flash well off to his right) shoots a pistol. It's not clear who was the target of that shot, but clearly Rittenhouse would have heard that shot as you can see him turn towards the shooter. In the midst of this Rosenbaum throws something at Rittenhouse and charges him behind some cars. It's then that Rittenhouse fires several shots at his attacker then immediately attempts to render first aid, and makes a phone call (possibly to 911) before the mob chases him yelling "kill him".

This is all plainly visible in the video. Even the New York Times, hardly a bastion of White Supremacy and pro-gun-nuttism, confirms this analysis that Rittenhouse was acting in self defence: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

In my view, the first shooting was clearly self defence, as were the other two.

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2020, 10:33:50 »
The only "positive" from this is that the kid wasn't properly trained or there could have been absolute carnage on that street.

Interestingly, every single shot he took hit it's intended target. Plus he was very conservative in the number of shots he fired. He performed as well as you'd hope any trained operator would under extremely stressful circumstances.

Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2020, 10:43:50 »
>The one you refer to can't be a video of him shooting a person in the head and then radioing that "I just killed somebofy".

I don't know of one which shows Rittenhouse shooting Rosenbaum in the head.  What is amply available is the one in which Rosenbaum chases Rittenhouse in amongst some parked cars, and a shot fire by someone other than Rittenhouse is heard.  Marry that up with what McGinnis had to say: "McGinnis said that the unarmed guy (Rosenbaum) was trying to get the defendant%u2019s gun." 

I'm comfortable with "reasonable attempt to retreat" and "self-defence".


I refer you back to the very first post in this thread, where I linked to a video from YouTuber "Donut Operator" who is an ex-SWAT guy who does videos on, inter alia, police shootings. He does a detailed breakdown of all three shootings and has video of the first/Rosenbaum shooting.

For ease of reference: https://youtu.be/pbsOIoqcit4

The New York Times also did a breakdown of the first shooting with some screen shots but no video: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

Quote
While Mr. Rittenhouse is being pursued by the group, an unknown gunman fires into the air, though it%u2019s unclear why. The weapon%u2019s muzzle flash appears in footage filmed at the scene.

Mr. Rittenhouse turns toward the sound of gunfire as another pursuer lunges toward him from the same direction. Mr. Rittenhouse then fires four times, and appears to shoot the man in the head.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 10:47:18 by LittleBlackDevil »

Offline Donald H

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2020, 12:05:45 »
For we Canadians, there seems to be too much emphasis on which side is to blame.
In any case, there's another shooting in California already with no deaths so far. Suggesting a civil war may be a little premature but the reference to Darwinism may be appropriate.
I have no link yet but I'll look for one.

Perhaps the title of this thread could be changed to be more inclusive of Americans shooting each other throughout the country?

edit: https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/08/31/police-investigate-possible-shot-fired-at-la-trump-caravan/
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 12:14:52 by Donald H »
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
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Offline Ralph

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2020, 17:50:42 »
I had to do the same the last time I went overseas. Spent  hundreds of dollars worth of ammo on my personal AR15 and Sig 9mm to make up for the lack of training and practice during predeployment.

Which tour/which BG? You'd think the infantry unit in charge of training would have had access to more ammo/training. We did 9mm PWT 4 on my last A'stan tour (better than nothing) and that was post-combat mission...

Offline shawn5o

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2020, 17:53:20 »
I never heard of Rodef = One Who Pursues. Perhaps one of our legal ppl can explain or debunk this.


August 30, 2020
Kyle Rittenhouse and The Law of the Pursuer
By Civis Americanus
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/08/kyle_rittenhouse_and_the_law_of_the_pursuer.html

Wisconsin recently charged Kyle Rittenhouse with first degree murder for killing two people who were, from what I can see from the videos, attacking him with weapons. Whether Rittenhouse should have been in Kenosha in the first place, and with a weapon a 17-year old cannot legally carry in public, is a separate issue for courts of law to decide. The question at hand is however why he was charged with murder while his surviving alleged assailants were, as far as I know, not charged with anything.

This leads to the need to educate potential jurors (i.e. all citizens who are eligible to serve on juries) proactively about important self-defense principles. This must happen before they are called for jury duty because it is illegal to do so afterward. Jurors need to understand the simple concept of din rodef, "the law of the pursuer." This gives defense attorneys a single word – rodef -- to explain the concept if jurors are not already familiar with it.

Rodef = One Who Pursues

A rodef (plural rodfim) is somebody who pursues somebody else with the objective of causing death or serious physical injury. Din rodef entitles the one pursued, or a bystander, to use reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, to stop the rodef from completing the intended violent crime. The principle is actually very similar to most modern laws. Deadly force cannot be used if lesser force will suffice, and the rodef ceases to be a rodef the instant he desists from his violent actions. Din rodef is also reflected by the modern adages (in the context of a fight or argument) such as "Never follow anybody into the parking lot" and "Never follow the other guy home" because these are prima facie evidence of malicious and violent intent. It's hard for a rodef to claim innocence or self-defense when things go bad.

More at link above
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Offline shawn5o

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2020, 17:59:09 »
Which tour/which BG? You'd think the infantry unit in charge of training would have had access to more ammo/training. We did 9mm PWT 4 on my last A'stan tour (better than nothing) and that was post-combat mission...

Hi Ralph

I remember in 1977 Wainwright we had no ammo for training. It was "military noise" and "bang, bang - you're dead"

 :rofl:
“We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.” ― Will Rogers

Offline Brihard

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2020, 17:59:42 »
I never heard of Rodef = One Who Pursues. Perhaps one of our legal ppl can explain or debunk this.


August 30, 2020
Kyle Rittenhouse and The Law of the Pursuer
By Civis Americanus
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/08/kyle_rittenhouse_and_the_law_of_the_pursuer.html

Wisconsin recently charged Kyle Rittenhouse with first degree murder for killing two people who were, from what I can see from the videos, attacking him with weapons. Whether Rittenhouse should have been in Kenosha in the first place, and with a weapon a 17-year old cannot legally carry in public, is a separate issue for courts of law to decide. The question at hand is however why he was charged with murder while his surviving alleged assailants were, as far as I know, not charged with anything.

This leads to the need to educate potential jurors (i.e. all citizens who are eligible to serve on juries) proactively about important self-defense principles. This must happen before they are called for jury duty because it is illegal to do so afterward. Jurors need to understand the simple concept of din rodef, "the law of the pursuer." This gives defense attorneys a single word – rodef -- to explain the concept if jurors are not already familiar with it.

Rodef = One Who Pursues

A rodef (plural rodfim) is somebody who pursues somebody else with the objective of causing death or serious physical injury. Din rodef entitles the one pursued, or a bystander, to use reasonable force, up to and including deadly force, to stop the rodef from completing the intended violent crime. The principle is actually very similar to most modern laws. Deadly force cannot be used if lesser force will suffice, and the rodef ceases to be a rodef the instant he desists from his violent actions. Din rodef is also reflected by the modern adages (in the context of a fight or argument) such as "Never follow anybody into the parking lot" and "Never follow the other guy home" because these are prima facie evidence of malicious and violent intent. It's hard for a rodef to claim innocence or self-defense when things go bad.

More at link above

That’s a principle in Jewish Talmudic legal philosophy. So far as I can tell it’s a term that has no legal meaning outside of that. It seems like someone is trying to import a concept from another system that might fit neatly here- but it has no inherent meaning in the situation before us. American self defense law is quite sufficiently fleshed out already.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2020, 18:07:08 »
Is Wisconsin a stand-your-ground state? Would that not serve as grounds enough? I have no dog in this fight, just a curiosity question.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Offline FJAG

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Re: Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0
« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2020, 18:12:51 »
I never heard of Rodef = One Who Pursues. Perhaps one of our legal ppl can explain or debunk this.
...
This leads to the need to educate potential jurors (i.e. all citizens who are eligible to serve on juries) proactively about important self-defense principles. This must happen before they are called for jury duty because it is illegal to do so afterward. Jurors need to understand the simple concept of din rodef, "the law of the pursuer." This gives defense attorneys a single word – rodef -- to explain the concept if jurors are not already familiar with it.

I'll take a quick stab at this.

Never heard of Rodef in my years as a lawyer. Googled it to find it's a concept under traditional Jewish law so doesn't have a basis in either our or American common law and/or codified criminal law.

There is no need to "educate" jurors before they are called to jury duty. In American trial practice each of the prosecutor and the defendant can explain their view of the facts and law to the jury after the evidence is in and before they do their deliberations. In addition, after the lawyers have finished, the judge will sum up the legal principles involved and direct the jury on what the various legal principles mean. In other words, the judge tells them what the law is and the jury then determines how the facts apply within the legal framework. (That's not to say that juries don't screw up from time to time. Even judges do. That's why there are transcripts and appeal courts)

Criminal laws vary from state to state (unlike Canada which has a single criminal code) but generally follow similar legal principles. The law of self defence is firstly codified (see up-thread for a citation of the Wisconsin provision) and secondly interpreted by judges and generally allow a person to take such reasonable force as is necessary to prevent serious injury or death. The law is relatively clear. Fact situations rarely are.

Is Wisconsin a stand-your-ground state? Would that not serve as grounds enough? I have no dog in this fight, just a curiosity question.

Not as such. See here.

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