Author Topic: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling  (Read 9957 times)

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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2020, 15:39:08 »
I doubt that officers on the ground in the moment think like that, or that the POTUS' views impact them much.

They're likely more concerned about what their own superiors will do say, and it would fall much more on the chief and other senior people in a given police department.

At least in the past few months, the very opposite of "you black people will behave". It's more like "defend yourself against an armed black man and you're going down for murder". So I just can't see police officers getting into their cruisers at the beginning of their shifts saying to their partners "let's go hunt us some black guys because the Donald says we can" but rather are saying "Man, I really hope we don't encounter any black guys who are armed and violent because then we either have to let ourselves die or go to jail and ruin our families".

I would agree that faction of police officers exists, and likely even the large majority. So you make a good point. But it only takes a few and so wouldn't you agree that there are bad apples in the barrel. Now an entire country is enraged and on fire because Of Chauvin's demonstration of deliberate murder on camera. (not literally on fire as in Cal)
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Offline LittleBlackDevil

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #101 on: September 15, 2020, 15:51:42 »
I would agree that faction of police officers exists, and likely even the large majority. So you make a good point. But it only takes a few and so wouldn't you agree that there are bad apples in the barrel. Now an entire country is enraged and on fire because Of Chauvin's demonstration of deliberate murder on camera. (not literally on fire as in Cal)

I agree that there are good and bad in every profession. Law enforcement is certainly no exception and there are definitely "bad apples" out there.

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #102 on: September 15, 2020, 16:07:55 »
He took a festering sore and picked at it to make it bleed. Racism was always alive and well in the American south and was moldering away in their closets, along with the bedsheets and pointy hats.

I'm just wondering about your use of the word, 'apparently'. Does that indicate sarcasm? If not then you've raised a very good talking point.

And so how does this tie in with the topic here? Trump has emboldened police officers to act out with violence against black people to make the point that 'you black people 'WILL' behave.

 :cheers:

I was being polite while pointing out the unlikely event of one person changing a whole democratic country in just 4 years.
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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #103 on: September 15, 2020, 16:17:03 »
I agree that there are good and bad in every profession. Law enforcement is certainly no exception and there are definitely "bad apples" out there.

It's not like there's a lack of evidence LBD.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=21975

Quote
US racism on the rise, UN experts warn in wake of Charlottesville violence

GENEVA (16 August 2017) %u2013 Racism and xenophobia are on the rise across the USA, a group of United Nations human rights experts* has warned in the wake of the far-right demonstrations and violence in Charlottesville, Virginia.

%u201CWe are outraged by the violence in Charlottesville and the racial hatred displayed by right-wing extremists, white supremacists and neo-Nazi groups,%u201D said the experts in a joint statement.

%u201CWe view these events as the latest examples of increasing racism, racial discrimination, Afrophobia, racist violence and xenophobia observed in demonstrations across the USA.

%u201CWe are deeply concerned at the proliferation and increasing prominence of organized hate and racist groups. Acts of hatred and racist hate speech must be unequivocally condemned. Hate crimes must be investigated and the perpetrators prosecuted.%u201D

The human rights experts made an urgent renewed call to the US authorities to step up its work to tackle the issue.
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #104 on: September 15, 2020, 16:38:20 »
It's not like there's a lack of evidence LBD.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=21975

Considering the USA went from basically a apartheid state 55 years ago to where they are today, the amount of racism in the USA has dropped significantly. Yes there are still racists, but the USA is now less racist at the moment than it ever has been in its history. It is also one of the least racist states in the world, the vast majority of the world is significantly more racist/discriminatory than the USA is.

I would take anything the UN says with more than a grain of salt. It is one of the most corrupt organizations in modern history, very opaque, and has a habit of electing people to positions they shouldn't even be close to holding. Such as Russia, China, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc. to the human rights council. A absolutely disgusting organization which needs to be destroyed and restarted from the ground up as I don't think it is possible to redeem it as it stands.

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #105 on: September 15, 2020, 22:00:17 »
Considering the USA went from basically a apartheid state 55 years ago to where they are today, the amount of racism in the USA has dropped significantly. Yes there are still racists, but the USA is now less racist at the moment than it ever has been in its history. It is also one of the least racist states in the world, the vast majority of the world is significantly more racist/discriminatory than the USA is.

I would take anything the UN says with more than a grain of salt. It is one of the most corrupt organizations in modern history, very opaque, and has a habit of electing people to positions they shouldn't even be close to holding. Such as Russia, China, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc. to the human rights council. A absolutely disgusting organization which needs to be destroyed and restarted from the ground up as I don't think it is possible to redeem it as it stands.

I agree as to the first para. It's easy to be a non-racist country when you have only one ethnic group and one official religion. Blasphemy laws are a good way to keep the population in line. It's not so easy when you consider yourself the "melting pot" of the world and accept people in large numbers from everywhere.  I agree that the US has come a long way and would go further and say that notwithstanding some of the furor in the streets, it hasn't been backsliding in general. Yes, there are more issues grabbing our attention right now but in some ways that's in part because some people are trying to move the goal posts; some forward, some backwards. That tends to get more press--both the fact press and the opinion press--which tends to obscure the slow steady progress actually being made.

As to the UN; like many things, it's not so much the organization per se but it's constituent parts that are the problem.

If you took the UN apart and rebuilt it "from the ground up" how would you go about making it all inclusive and equitable and yet keep out or minimize the voice of the dozens and dozens of corrupt or self-interest aligned countries. Unfortunately, we are a diverse and quarrelsome world. Many simply do not subscribe to our view of things. Do we just cut them out? And what if they rebuild their version of a UN and keep us out?

 :cheers:
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #106 on: September 15, 2020, 22:21:53 »
Whatever happens in the criminal courts, Minneapolis taxpayers could be on the hook for "a big cheque" to George Floyd's family.

Last year, the City of Minneapolis paid $20 million to the family of Justine Ruszczyk.

Today the City of Louisville, KY agreed to pay $12 million to Breonna's family.

No criminal charges have been filed.

The criminal cases get the publicity. But, it's the civil suits that hit taxpayers in the wallet.

Like this yesterday,

"Uncooperative and belligerent" man arrested by police. He is struggling with police. Paramedics arrive and give him ketamine. What happened next? ...a $3 million dollar wrongful death settlement.
https://abcnews4.com/news/local/report-3m-settlement-reached-following-death-of-man-in-mount-pleasant-police-custody
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 09:19:49 by mariomike »
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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #107 on: September 16, 2020, 12:41:48 »

It's not so easy when you consider yourself the "melting pot" of the world and accept people in large numbers from everywhere.


This is quite true, except that the racism problem in the US is nearly exclusively whites against blacks and the blacks got there by a different means, then multiplied and tried to fit in and flourish. The racism against Hispanics is a relatively new thing in most states and has to be considered differently. 

Quote
And what if they rebuild their version of a UN and keep us out?


That's certainly something that Trump had to be brought up to speed on when he so cavalierly suggested pulling out of the UN. He was in a way reminded that the world isn't America's sandbox and all the toys aren't his.

 :cheers:
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Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2020, 13:38:43 »
This is quite true, except that the racism problem in the US is nearly exclusively whites against blacks and the blacks got there by a different means, then multiplied and tried to fit in and flourish.

OK the highlighted area needs explanation. Racism isn't exclusive to white people. You just smeared about 250 million Americans with the "racist brush".
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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2020, 13:53:11 »
OK the highlighted area needs explanation. Racism isn't exclusive to white people. You just smeared about 250 million Americans with the "racist brush".

O.k. I was being hasty because it was a reply to specific remarks, so I'll amend that to say that it's vice versa too.

America's racism problem that's in the news almost exclusively isn't an issue with immigrants, it's the issue with black/white racism. And I left out Islam because the American whites who hate Islamics do so for religious purposes and not for the various skin colours of Muslims. (and assorted other reasons)

I didn't smear 250 million Americans with the racist brush. The 250 million is your estimate for racists or something, not mine. I won't pick a number right now but if I did I think it could be based in part on the opinions being voiced by 'many' of Trump's supporters.

Trump's an Obama birther. Anybody who supports Trump is at the very least suspect of the same feelings.
Just try to keep in mind that my remarks were more of a rebuttal of FJAG's comments on America's racism problem being contributable to immigrants and the issues raised by accepting many thousands of immigrants.

My opinion is largely based on our Canadian experience in which we don't have a racism issue with most immigrants. Ours would be more likely some people's issues with our First Nations people. Not to say it's my issue, just to suggest it is Canada's largest racist issue.

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 13:57:03 by Donald H »
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Offline shawn5o

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2020, 14:31:34 »
It's not like there's a lack of evidence LBD.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=21975

I wouldn't trust the UN, especially the HR department.


Quote
SEVENTY-FOURTH SESSION, 17TH MEETING (AM)
General Assembly Elects 14 Member States to Human Rights Council, Appoints New Under-Secretary-General for Internal Oversight Services
https://www.un.org/press/en/2019/ga12204.doc.htm

By secret ballot, the Assembly elected Armenia, Brazil, Germany, Indonesia, Japan, Libya, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Namibia, Netherlands, Poland, Republic of Korea, Sudan and Venezuela.  All 14 members will serve three-year terms beginning on 1 January 2020.

The newly elected States are replacing the following outgoing members:  China, Croatia, Cuba, Egypt, Hungary, Iceland, Iraq, Japan, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Tunisia and the United Kingdom.  In accordance with Assembly resolution 60/251, those Member States were eligible for immediate re-election except delegations which had already served two consecutive terms — China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and the United Kingdom.

Newly elected to the Geneva-based Human Rights Council were Armenia, Germany, Indonesia, Libya, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Namibia, Netherlands, Poland, Republic of Korea, Sudan and Venezuela.

Great bunch of countries to criticize the US. Oh yeah, didn't the UNHR critcize Canada in the past?

so many member states are dictatorships that engage in human rights violations -- and they support each other. The worst countries are far more united in protecting human rights abuses than the democracies which protect human rights.

 :2c:
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2020, 14:52:40 »
This is quite true, except that the racism problem in the US is nearly exclusively whites against blacks and the blacks got there by a different means, then multiplied and tried to fit in and flourish. The racism against Hispanics is a relatively new thing in most states and has to be considered differently. 

That's certainly something that Trump had to be brought up to speed on when he so cavalierly suggested pulling out of the UN. He was in a way reminded that the world isn't America's sandbox and all the toys aren't his.

 :cheers:

The UN of course could vote to leave the US and setup shop elsewhere, but then it might be harder to spend their countries money on toys for their enjoyment and I suspect the delegates don't want to live in a developing country where they might not get access to their fancy foods.

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2020, 15:29:32 »
I wouldn't trust the UN, especially the HR department.


Great bunch of countries to criticize the US. Oh yeah, didn't the UNHR critcize Canada in the past?

so many member states are dictatorships that engage in human rights violations -- and they support each other. The worst countries are far more united in protecting human rights abuses than the democracies which protect human rights.

 :2c:

Now, now, public executions based on no evidence apart from tribal affiliations, mass rape, genital mutilation and cannibalism are important pieces of cultural heritage that must be celebrated and preserved, not condemned, by you privileged first world white dudes...  ::)
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2020, 16:48:22 »
Now, now, public executions based on no evidence apart from tribal affiliations, mass raper, genital mutilation and cannibalism are important pieces of cultural heritage that must be celebrated and preserved, not condemned, by you privileged first world white dudes...  ::)

Are you assuming my gender??  #triggered
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Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2020, 06:20:42 »
I agree as to the first para. It's easy to be a non-racist country when you have only one ethnic group and one official religion. Blasphemy laws are a good way to keep the population in line. It's not so easy when you consider yourself the "melting pot" of the world and accept people in large numbers from everywhere.  I agree that the US has come a long way and would go further and say that notwithstanding some of the furor in the streets, it hasn't been backsliding in general. Yes, there are more issues grabbing our attention right now but in some ways that's in part because some people are trying to move the goal posts; some forward, some backwards. That tends to get more press--both the fact press and the opinion press--which tends to obscure the slow steady progress actually being made.

As to the UN; like many things, it's not so much the organization per se but it's constituent parts that are the problem.

If you took the UN apart and rebuilt it "from the ground up" how would you go about making it all inclusive and equitable and yet keep out or minimize the voice of the dozens and dozens of corrupt or self-interest aligned countries. Unfortunately, we are a diverse and quarrelsome world. Many simply do not subscribe to our view of things. Do we just cut them out? And what if they rebuild their version of a UN and keep us out?

 :cheers:

Well for starters I would do the following:
-Remove Veto powers, they shouldn't exist
-Make all spending transparent, the amount of money that goes into that organization and how opaque it currently is disgusts me.
-Make it so only true democracies can be full members, other countries can join but only as associate members who lack the power to vote
-Set up human rights standards which shall be a minimum to maintain. Right to life, Right to freedom of religion, Right to freedom of speech, Right to property, etc.
-Basically make it the highest ideals possible as without that what is really the point in having the UN?

I don't really care if they create their own organization and keep us out. Personally I am at the point where I don't even think we should be trading with countries that commit human rights abuses. We tolerate the worst of human behavior in the name of the almighty dollar and that shouldn't be. At the moment we are basically funding genocide on a scale not seen since the Soviets/Nazis (China), yet no one wants to talk about that. Just a other example of how the UN is a joke as they should be all over that.

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #115 on: September 17, 2020, 09:35:37 »
Without veto power, there would be no UNSC,  it was a critical feature for all UNSC members when it was establish. In Internal Relations, countries inherently prioritize their own interests and this is one way to make sure of that.
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #116 on: September 17, 2020, 14:25:58 »
Well for starters I would do the following:
-Remove Veto powers, they shouldn't exist

As of July 2020, Russia/USSR has used its veto 116 times, United States 81 times, UK 29 times, France 16 times and China 16 times. Seems it cuts both ways. Besides getting the big boys to give up their Orwellian "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" standard will never sell. Do you really think that the US, Russia and China would voluntarily stand on the same level with, say, Tuvalu?

Quote
-Make it so only true democracies can be full members, other countries can join but only as associate members who lack the power to vote

Good luck with setting a universally acceptable testing standard for that. Would the US's penchant for gerrymandering and denouncing voting by mail qualify?

Quote
-Set up human rights standards which shall be a minimum to maintain. Right to life, Right to freedom of religion, Right to freedom of speech, Right to property, etc.

You're a little late with that. See the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Declared on 10 December 1948.

 :cheers:
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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #117 on: September 17, 2020, 14:46:16 »
As of July 2020, Russia/USSR has used its veto 116 times, United States 81 times, UK 29 times, France 16 times and China 16 times. Seems it cuts both ways. Besides getting the big boys to give up their Orwellian "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" standard will never sell. Do you really think that the US, Russia and China would voluntarily stand on the same level with, say, Tuvalu?

Good luck with setting a universally acceptable testing standard for that. Would the US's penchant for gerrymandering and denouncing voting by mail qualify?

You're a little late with that. See the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Declared on 10 December 1948.

 :cheers:

Article 23, at first glance appears to fly directly in the face of capitalism. But then does it really? It is consistent with socially responsible capitalism. Does such a thing exist?
But that's definitely getting off the topic of police brutality against black men
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #118 on: September 17, 2020, 14:58:49 »
As of July 2020, Russia/USSR has used its veto 116 times, United States 81 times, UK 29 times, France 16 times and China 16 times. Seems it cuts both ways. Besides getting the big boys to give up their Orwellian "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" standard will never sell. Do you really think that the US, Russia and China would voluntarily stand on the same level with, say, Tuvalu?

...or Canada?

;)

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #119 on: September 17, 2020, 15:12:31 »
...or Canada?

;)

Good one! But Canada is likely the world's most valued country for our being supportive of US foreign policy. Even more than GB because they only have military assets to offer while we bring along moral support and great justification.

 :cheers:
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #120 on: September 17, 2020, 15:26:07 »
Good one! But Canada is likely the world's most valued country for our being supportive of US foreign policy. Even more than GB because they only have military assets to offer while we bring along moral support and great justification.

 :cheers:

 :rofl:

Good one.
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Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #121 on: September 17, 2020, 15:35:02 »
:rofl:

Good one.

Thank you but how do I interpret the little laughing man?
I'll take a chance and send my limited amount of best wishes.

edit: just learned something new! I can only send 'happies' to you once a day.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #122 on: September 17, 2020, 15:49:38 »
Thank you but how do I interpret the little laughing man?
I'll take a chance and send my limited amount of best wishes.

edit: just learned something new! I can only send 'happies' to you once a day.

He was disagreeing with your statement. 
Optio

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #123 on: September 17, 2020, 16:03:15 »
Thank you but how do I interpret the little laughing man?
I'll take a chance and send my limited amount of best wishes.

edit: just learned something new! I can only send 'happies' to you once a day.

I’m pretty sure that the five permanent members of the UNSC couldn’t give a fig about anyone that doesn’t have a veto....ie. everyone else, so long as yes votes total At least 9. If there’s a motion and none of the P5 veto, and at least 4 of the 10 temps bite yes, it’s approved.  Others (temp or non-member alike) could conceivably place their proverbial hands on their hips and pout of they don’t agree with the P5, but 5+4 yeas and it’s a moot point.  Canada just happens to excel in its mootness.

Offline Donald H

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Re: Case against Minneapolis officers appears to be unraveling
« Reply #124 on: September 17, 2020, 16:18:01 »
I’m pretty sure that the five permanent members of the UNSC couldn’t give a fig about anyone that doesn’t have a veto....ie. everyone else, so long as yes votes total At least 9. If there’s a motion and none of the P5 veto, and at least 4 of the 10 temps bite yes, it’s approved.  Others (temp or non-member alike) could conceivably place their proverbial hands on their hips and pout of they don’t agree with the P5, but 5+4 yeas and it’s a moot point.  Canada just happens to excel in its mootness.

Sorry but I must have misled you as to my meaning when I changed the subject of discussion to 'US foreign policy' in #117. That's what I was meaning about Canada's importance and it's value as a supporter of US foreign policy.

Otherwise, as this pertains to the UNSC, I agree with what you've said.
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
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