Author Topic: The libertarian case for (Western) independence  (Read 1164 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline shawn5o

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 261
  • "We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo
The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« on: September 15, 2020, 19:31:50 »
Can this “radical decentralization” work? To me, it seems very far-fetched.



The libertarian case for independence

Independence is a legitimate option for the West, but only if it does so to end overreaching government, not replicate it.

Published 6 days ago on September 8, 2020
Darcy Gerow

https://www.westernstandardonline.com/2020/09/gerow-the-libertarian-case-for-independence/

As any movement with deep roots in Alberta should be, Western independence is considered a conservative one. Yet, it’s rallying cries for a fair deal (or else) are made to the backdrop of keeping “our money” out of the equalization pool or getting “our resources” to market. While Western alienation is a growing problem, the validity of independence as the solution is weakened by this implicit collectivist bent. Seizing power and money from Ottawa for the sake of concentrating it with an all-powerful independent Western government is redundant. 

However, there is a strong libertarian case for independence which is best articulated by Murray Rothbard in a 1977 editorial where he supported Quebec’s sovereignty: “It means a giant central state has been broken up into constituent parts; it means greater competition between governments or different geographical areas. . . it exalts that mighty libertarian principle of secession, which we hope to extend on down from the region to the city to the block to the individual.” A process called radical decentralization.



… a strong constitution, bill of rights and sound money which are the three pillars that exalt the ideas of a free and open society – provisions and protections against all threats foreign and domestic.

Although, Canada’s constitution has been globally praised as one of the best, it reads more like a lease agreement on used furniture. Instead, conservatives who favor Western independence seek to channel the founding fathers of the United States to create a document that inspires that glorious history and ceremony associated with a nation winning its independence from tyrannical imperialists.

Libertarians – however – look to Lysander Spooner: “But whether the constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain – that it has either authorized such a government as we have had or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.”

LINK
“We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.” ― Will Rogers

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 49,105
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,136
  • Red shirted sea nerd reporting for the away team!
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 19:42:29 »
The issue overlooked for any province wanting to separate from Canada will always be the First Nation territories. Their treaty agreements are with the Federal govt not provinces, so if the province wants to pull out doesn't mean it includes everything within their borders. There is a huge overlap of First Nation lands and the oilfields, a lot of which was done by bulldozing the tribes decades ago, and probably much less attactive to leave if all of a sudden they lose huge tracts of land that covers major cities, natural resources and otherwise makes the province look like an incomplete puzzle.

I'm sure there is a map showing settled and pending land claims, but the last one I saw pretty much resulted in the same situation for every province.
+300

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 331,455
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,832
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 20:02:14 »
Western separation really means prairie separation. BC would have none of it. They would be landlocked, and dependent on a commodity that has likely already passed its heyday. Maybe not such a wise COA.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 70,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,714
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 20:40:08 »
Western separation really means prairie separation. BC would have none of it. They would be landlocked, and dependent on a commodity that has likely already passed its heyday. Maybe not such a wise COA.

Fair enough. Curious though...how do you heat your home through cold Canadian winters? Wood?

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 331,455
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,832
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 20:54:56 »
Fair enough. Curious though...how do you heat your home through cold Canadian winters? Wood?

Natural gas. I didn’t say petroleum is done, I said past it’s heyday. We’re in the last generation where the internal combustion engine will be dominant for personal transportation. Nearly half of US petrochemical production, for instance, goes to gasoline.

Western oil from bitumen deposits has a much higher production cost. It needs much higher spot prices to be profitable. That means their wells will be some of the first capped hen prices drop- we saw that over the past year already.

These aren’t value judgements on my part, it’s just an objective reality that an over reliance on oil production is increasingly risky.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline shawn5o

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 261
  • "We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 22:34:44 »
Natural gas. I didn’t say petroleum is done, I said past it’s heyday. We’re in the last generation where the internal combustion engine will be dominant for personal transportation. Nearly half of US petrochemical production, for instance, goes to gasoline.

Western oil from bitumen deposits has a much higher production cost. It needs much higher spot prices to be profitable. That means their wells will be some of the first capped hen prices drop- we saw that over the past year already.

These aren’t value judgements on my part, it’s just an objective reality that an over reliance on oil production is increasingly risky.

I think fossil fuels are still going to be the driver of Canada, however, how long that will last is for the generations that follow us. Alternative energy sources are OK but can never replace fossil fuel energy. Having said that, I am worried about nuke power. I am not against nuke power - just worried about waste disposal.
“We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.” ― Will Rogers

Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 70,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,714
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 23:00:33 »
If people really cared about the environment, they'd reduce their consumption and footprint. Everyone wants to talk about going green, but few truly mean it. Instead, they'd rather buy a new iPhone every year, live in the latest condo or McMansion development, and order a billion things off Amazon that all have to travel across a massive supply chain to get to them. Not to mention plugging their EV into a power grid in which they have no actual idea how their electricity is generated. Oil & Gas is evil, nuclear is evil, but I better not lose power or cell/internet service for an hour or the world will end!

Maybe the world would be better if everything ran off solar and wind...we'd have a lot less power, but probably also a lot less Twitter...
+600

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 567,390
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,923
  • Keep 'em rolling.
    • The job.
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2020, 07:15:08 »
Quote
Independence is a legitimate option for the West, but only if it does so to end overreaching government, not replicate it.

For reference to the discussion,

Western Alienation - Split from General Election 2019 
https://navy.ca/forums/index.php/topic,131365.0.html
OP: "Canada is dead I’m only voting for independence parties now"
7 pages.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 07:19:36 by mariomike »
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline shawn5o

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 7,140
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 261
  • "We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 11:47:15 »
For reference to the discussion,

Western Alienation - Split from General Election 2019 
https://navy.ca/forums/index.php/topic,131365.0.html
OP: "Canada is dead I’m only voting for independence parties now"
7 pages.

Hi MM

I didn't know there was already atopic on this. Thanks for bringing it up.

 :cheers:
+300
“We can't all be heroes because somebody has to sit on the curb and clap as they go by.” ― Will Rogers

Offline Hamish Seggie

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 251,597
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,088
  • This is my son Michael, KIA Afghanistan 3 Sep 08
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 15:03:40 »
I've been around a few years and these Western Separatist movements come and go, depending on which party is governing Canada and who the PM is.
I agree with Brihard that it is a Saskatchewan/Alberta thing and not so much in Manitoba.
Freedom Isn't Free   "Never Shall I Fail My Brothers"

“Do everything that is necessary and nothing that is not".

Offline Underway

  • Donor
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 31,655
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,165
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2020, 16:56:27 »
Yes, separate.  You can follow the list of every other land locked state petro state to wealth and happyness.  Like South Sudan or Chad.  Reliant on your neighbours to ensure you get top dollar for your resources and trade products.  Because the US is super great in ensuring Alberta oil receives market value for its product, and BC would love to let you build a pipeline to the coast when you aren't even part of Canada anymore...

Offline QV

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • 18,400
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 631
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 17:10:06 »
Rather than the GTFO attitude as evident from Underway, maybe Canada should try and make things more fair for one of its biggest contributors to federation.  But, alas a fair deal might offend other regions. 

Rather than a landlocked wasteland, should Alberta go it would most likely be as Peter Zeihan suggests as a possibility in his “the Alberta question”.


Offline reveng

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 70,795
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,714
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 17:26:42 »
Perhaps one day, the political boundaries of North America will have to be redrawn. If there was a new country that comprised Texas and other US states, as well as AB/SK, I'd move there and I doubt I'd be the only one. What really disappoints me is the attitude I see towards the West. Somehow, I get the impression that the rest of Canada is in a way jealous of past energy sector success (all those people without useless arts degrees, somehow making a living!) and now happy to throw them under the bus. Aren't we all Canadian? Or does that only apply to terrorists?

Personally, I think nuclear has a larger role to play than most are willing to admit. We should be working to advance the nuclear sector in both terms of technology and safety. Lots of good jobs to be had, and it actually produces reliable energy. Waste is an issue for sure, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. If we survive as a species, I imagine nuclear (or some further development along those lines) will have a major part to play.

Online Colin P

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 177,830
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,569
  • Civilian
    • http://www.pacific.ccg-gcc.gc.ca
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 18:56:47 »
The issue overlooked for any province wanting to separate from Canada will always be the First Nation territories. Their treaty agreements are with the Federal govt not provinces, so if the province wants to pull out doesn't mean it includes everything within their borders. There is a huge overlap of First Nation lands and the oilfields, a lot of which was done by bulldozing the tribes decades ago, and probably much less attactive to leave if all of a sudden they lose huge tracts of land that covers major cities, natural resources and otherwise makes the province look like an incomplete puzzle.

I'm sure there is a map showing settled and pending land claims, but the last one I saw pretty much resulted in the same situation for every province.

130% of BC, the FN are not one big happy family and the your right they won't want to give the Feds support. Not to mention treaties that span Provinces.

Offline CBH99

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 49,390
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,268
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2020, 18:58:31 »
I've been around a few years and these Western Separatist movements come and go, depending on which party is governing Canada and who the PM is.
I agree with Brihard that it is a Saskatchewan/Alberta thing and not so much in Manitoba.


Even then, nobody really takes it seriously.  You see the odd roadside sign or decals on a redneck's truck after an election doesn't go their way, but that's about it. 
Fortune Favours the Bold...and the Smart.

Wouldn't it be nice to have some Boondock Saints kicking around?

Offline Navy_Pete

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *
  • 49,105
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 1,136
  • Red shirted sea nerd reporting for the away team!
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2020, 21:08:33 »
130% of BC, the FN are not one big happy family and the your right they won't want to give the Feds support. Not to mention treaties that span Provinces.

Yeah, for sure it would be really messy. Some tribe may opt to go with in the event of separation, or stay with Canada, but it's one of those things that was totally glossed over in QC during their last referendum until someone pointed out that something like more then half of QC was treaty territory of some kind (and believe the Bloq lost their mind and said QC wasn't divisible).

Personally think it is an even bigger hurdle then anything else for any province that wants to democratically separate in just practical terms, as it impacts absolutely everything from the big picture like borders, down to the day to day when you could have landlocked bits of the new country surrounded by treaty lands, so some kind of free market like the EU would be the only real practical solution (defeating the purpose of independence really).

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 315,300
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 16,250
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2020, 23:43:32 »
130% of BC, the FN are not one big happy family and the your right they won't want to give the Feds support. Not to mention treaties that span Provinces.

Check out Nativeland.ca https://native-land.ca/

Whew...
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Thucydides

  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 199,875
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 13,855
  • Freespeecher
Re: The libertarian case for (Western) independence
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 23:45:30 »
Having lived out West during the "Let the Eastern Bastards freeze in the Dark" period, I certainly see where they are coming from. This also ties into several other areas (some of which have been discussed on various Army.ca threads, for those willing to look), such as the regional divides (outlined in such books as "The Nine Nations of North America" and "An Empire Wilderness") or changes in demographics, technologies, economics and so on ("The Big Shift").

Other tells are the recent elections - We have seen Populist governments elected in Alberta, Ontario and Quebec, a national Populist Party which was able to nominate a candidate in every single riding despite being less than a year old a the time, the rebirth of Western Separatism and the BQ - all indicating voters are looking for something else, even if they are not entirely clear of what it is.

As many of you know, I see similar causes behind such events as nationalist governments being electd in Poland, Hungary, Austria, Italy and Brazil, the Brexit, the growth of political parties like AfD and Partij voor de Vrijheid, the Mouvement des gilets jaunes in France and of course the election of Donald Trump in the United States.

I would not be quick to dismiss Western Separatists - they may not achieve Separatism but they are the leading edge as the political landscape changes due to the other underlying changes noted above. This also could render moot some of the other objections written upthread - will Westerners necessarily respect treaties as written if they interfere with day to day living or long term plans? Will they gain allies in the United States? Are they able to link to other movements and events not just in Canada and the United States, but around the world? I'm not really able to read the tea leaves to be able to predict the end state (and I would be very sceptical of anyone who claims to do so), but there are going to be some drastic changes coming, and probably a lot sooner than any of us may expect.
+300 « Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 13:44:48 by Thucydides »
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.