Author Topic: Dieppe merged thread (70th Anniversary, historical debates, etc.)  (Read 45711 times)

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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Lessons learned at Dieppe?
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2016, 22:55:44 »
New research suggests the real intent of the historic raid on Dieppe in 1942 was to steal a "Ultra" machine that would help crack top-secret German codes with the release of once-classified and ultra-secret war files.

http://globalnews.ca/news/274605/breaking-german-codes-real-reason-for-1942-dieppe-raid-historian/

http://www.canadashistory.ca/Community/Community-Features/Articles/A-New-Look-at-WW2-Dieppe-Raid


Cheers
Larry

I'm about a third of the way through Terence Robertson's "The Shame and the Glory: Dieppe."  This was published in 1962 and goes into a lot of the details about about the Dieppe operation from the planning stages to the actual operation and its aftermath. Right now I'm just at the chapter leading up to the attack.

Robertson had access to a lot of the planning documentation and was able to interview some of the senior personnel actually involved in the planning of the operation. And he mentions there was a lot of politics involved, including the fact that the Canadians were envious of their fellow Commonwealth allies who were in operations around the world, and the pressure on the Western allies from Russia to open a second front and relieve pressure on the Soviet Union.

So, while I find the idea that Op RUTTER/JUBILEE was a cover to capture an Engima machine to be pretty far fetched, Robertson does state there were a lot of shady characters wondering around and no one was quite sure who or what they were up to. He does state that there were at least three secret operations within the overall Dieppe raid.

One was the operation where soldiers of the South Saskatchewan Reg. were to escort a scientist to a German radar station at Pourville and recover parts of the radar and bring them back to the UK. And if they couldn't make it back - shoot the scientist! This part of the operation is detailed in James Leasor's book " Green Beach";

A second operation was by a Field Security team to capture the German divisional HQ and grab any documentation, codes, POW's, etc that they could find; and,

The third operation was to liberate any French resistance members held in the local prison and possibly bring some of them back to the UK.

Now, besides these three secret missions, Robertson does mentions other groups being involved in the operation, but unfortunately, doesn't provide any footnotes/endnotes to his sources.

For example, the observation by US Army Ranger, Lt Robert Flanagan who, prior to embarkation ended up in the wrong place, and observed several groups who included, "Royal Marines","Sudetan Germans" and a group, lead by a Russian individual who were disguised as Canadian soldiers. Their mission??

So, yes, its possible that there was a group/unit that was tasked with capturing an Engima machine, but to say that the whole operation was a disguise for capturing that machine is pure conjecture.

 

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Offline Chispa

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Re: Lessons learned at Dieppe?
« Reply #76 on: November 30, 2016, 12:38:23 »
I'm about a third of the way through Terence Robertson's "The Shame and the Glory: Dieppe."  This was published in 1962 and goes into a lot of the details about about the Dieppe operation from the planning stages to the actual operation and its aftermath. Right now I'm just at the chapter leading up to the attack.

Robertson had access to a lot of the planning documentation and was able to interview some of the senior personnel actually involved in the planning of the operation. And he mentions there was a lot of politics involved, including the fact that the Canadians were envious of their fellow Commonwealth allies who were in operations around the world, and the pressure on the Western allies from Russia to open a second front and relieve pressure on the Soviet Union.


Robertson is questionable, been decades believe like U stated, provides not much on documents, sources, without footnotes just like many traditionalist; per say AT WHATEVER COST by R.W. THOMPSON Published 1956. Free PDF download: https://archive.org/details/atwhatevercost006210mbp
 
CBC Digital Archives.

Review of Dieppe book ‘The Shame and the Glory.’ Wallace Rayburn dissects Terrence Robertson's controversial account of Dieppe.
http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/dieppe-review-of-the-shame-and-the-glory

Dieppe: Review of 'The Shame and the Glory.' October 2, 1962 06:25 http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1791228371


Quote
One was the operation where soldiers of the South Saskatchewan Reg. were to escort a scientist to a German radar station at Pourville and recover parts of the radar and bring them back to the UK. And if they couldn't make it back - shoot the scientist! This part of the operation is detailed in James Leasor's book " Green Beach";

First-hand reports from the invasion of Dieppe: Canadian newsmen back from the beaches of Dieppe describe their ordeal ashore. http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/dieppe-first-hand-reports

Source See Dieppe Raid Wiki: However, despite the assault resuming, the South Saskatchewan’s and the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada, who had landed beside them, were unable to reach their target.[9] While the Camerons did manage to penetrate further inland than any other troops that day, they were also soon forced back as German reinforcements rushed to the scene.[12] Both battalions suffered more losses as they withdrew; only 341 men were able to reach the landing craft and embark, and the rest were left to surrender. For his part in the battle, Lieutenant Colonel Merritt was awarded the Victoria Cross.[23]

One of the objectives of the Dieppe Raid was to discover the importance and performance capability of a German radar station on the cliff-top to the east of the town of Pourville. To achieve this, RAF Flight Sergeant Jack Nissenthall, a radar specialist, was attached to the South Saskatchewan Regiment. He was to attempt to enter the radar station and learn its secrets, accompanied by a small unit of 11 men of the Saskatchewans as bodyguards. Nissenthall volunteered for the mission fully aware that, due to the highly sensitive nature of his knowledge of Allied radar technology, his Saskatchewan bodyguard unit were under orders to kill him if necessary to prevent him being captured. He also carried a cyanide pill as a last resort. Atkin 1980, p. 136.

Note some accounts claim 10, and more then one radar specialist.


Quote
For example, the observation by US Army Ranger, Lt Robert Flanagan who, prior to embarkation ended up in the wrong place, and observed several groups who included, "Royal Marines","Sudetan Germans" and a group, lead by a Russian individual who were disguised as Canadian soldiers. Their mission??

Read: At Whatever Cost provides a comprehensive account on ca 50 US Rangers, count how many were attached too Canadian Regiments, etc, so a group of 10-15? True many separate incognito missions in Dieppe, or just one mission, that's the definition of a "raid."  Now which one would be of the greatest impotence if U consider that Intel dropped at an alarming rate once the 4 rotor was in use...

Quote
So, yes, its possible that there was a group/unit that was tasked with capturing an Engima machine, but to say that the whole operation was a disguise for capturing that machine is pure conjecture.

Life Magazine 31 Aug 1942. Street Fighting In Dieppe by Montreal Newsman Wallace Reyburn,  London correspondent for the Montreal Standard; endured six hours ashore with the South Saskatchewan Regiment anecdote.   

https://books.google.ca/books?id=iU4EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA35&ots=dCPn85eiOm&dq=The%20British%20were%20going%20to%20have%20a%20cup%20of%20tea%20at%20German%20HQ%20at%20Dieppe&pg=PA35#v=onepage&q&f=false


Author Terence Robertson says that only three Canadian newspaper reporters were allowed to go on the raid: Fred Griffin of the Toronto Star, Ross Munro of Canadian Press and Wallace Reyburn of the Montreal Star. Because of military censorship, debriefings and other delays, the Canadian reporters were unable to file their stories for 29 hours after the operation had ended, creating a news vacuum that the Germans exploited.
http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/german-veterans-remember-defending-dieppe


The Information Front: The Canadian Army and News Management during the ... By Timothy Balzer claims: Wallace Reyburn was the only reporter to get ashore; p. 197.

Allies at Dieppe: 4 Commando and the US Rangers By Will Fowler… In Operation Jubilee attached to No. 4 Commando war correspondent A.B. Austin of the Daily Herald accompanying on Orange Beach landing…With extensive news coverage from journalist aboard the warships offshore and at port to conduct interviews when the troops returned. The Canadian Army public relations staff had requested that five US correspondents in the UK invited to cover the operation. Quentin Reynolds of Collier’s Magazine; Drew Middleton of Associated Press;  Ross Munro of Canadian Press: Fred Griffin of the Toronto Daily Star; & Wallace Reyburn of the weekly Montreal Standard, and filing for the British press known as Fleet Street consisting of ten national newspapers……..

•  Though they longed for liberation, the local French population of Dieppe were told not to assist the Allies and thereby incur the wrath of the occupying Germans. The RAF dropped leaflets and the BBC broadcast messages in French saying, "This is a raid and not an invasion."

•  Hitler was said to be so pleased with the "perfect discipline and calm" of the Dieppe citizens that he gave the mayor millions of francs for reconstruction, and released hundreds of French PoWs captured in 1940.(Source: Will Fowler, The Commandos at Dieppe: Rehearsal for D-Day)

Immediately following the raid, the German propaganda machine went into high gear. Their initial stories claimed that the attack was a full-blown invasion, and that it had been successfully repelled.


The London Gazette Publication date: 2 October 1942 Supplement: 35729 Page: 4323
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35729/supplement/4323


Laurier Centre for Military Strategic and Disarmament Studies: Review of Mark Zuehlke’s Tragedy at Dieppe: Operation Jubilee, August 19, 1942 by Mike Bechthold.

Any serious study of the Dieppe raid will start with Stacey’s chapters in volume 1 of the official history of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, Six Years of War (1955), which remain an excellent introduction to the topic, and T. Murray Hunter’s short monograph Canada at Dieppe (1982) offers a succinct and balanced narrative of the raid. Terence Robertson’s Dieppe: The Shame and the Glory (1962) is another traditional account which offers a good balance.

Controversy and Dieppe have gone hand-in-hand and there are a number of books that approach this from different angles. Brian Loring Villa contends that Lord Louis Mountbatten ordered the raid to take place without any reference to higher command (Churchill). This is a difficult case to prove and is based on the non-existence of a direct order or telegram from Churchill authorising the remounting of Operation Jubilee. Villa’s argument does not convince many historians, but his painstaking analysis of the planning for the raid remains unsurpassed. Brereton Greenhous has written a short book on Dieppe which presents an uncompromisingly critical interpretation of the raid. Greenhous argues that the plans for Rutter and Jubilee were fatally flawed, inexperienced Canadian troops did not fight well, and no worthwhile lessons were learned. He concludes that only gross German incompetence could have resulted in the success of the Dieppe operation.

Two other essential books on the raid are Denis and Shelagh Whitaker’s Dieppe: Tragedy to Triumph (1992) and Norman Franks, The Greatest Air Battle (1992). Denis Whitaker was a captain in the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry in 1942. He landed on the main beach at Dieppe, fought his way through the casino and into the town and managed to find his way back to England unwounded. His book, a collaboration with his wife, documents this experience but also offers a balanced appraisal of the raid which seeks to understand and justify the cost. Particular care is given to linking the failures at Dieppe to the successes at D-Day. Franks, an accomplished air historian, provides a narrative look at the air battle over Dieppe. It is unique as the only monograph to focus on the air to air battles over Dieppe.

One might conclude from reading Zuehlke’s book that there is nothing new to learning about the Dieppe Raid but nothing could be further from the truth. The Autumn 2012 issue of Canadian Military History focussed on Dieppe and presented a number of innovative, cutting-edge interpretations of the Raid. David Hall (King’s College London) examined the German perspective of the raid and showed how its outcome was used for propaganda purposes and how it influenced the German’s high command’s perception of their success in the war. Ross Mahoney (doctoral candidate, University of Birmingham) contextualised the air battle of Dieppe and emphasised how it grew out of the existing RAF doctrine for amphibious air support operations. Béatrice Richard (Collège militaire royal de Saint Jean) examined how the Dieppe raid was viewed in Quebec and fed into the myth that soldiers from that province had suffered a disproportionate number of casualties. These articles have little in common other than a focus on Dieppe but they show how an examination of various military, political, strategic and social issues can enrich our understanding of Canada and the Second World War.

Another new area of study was revealed last fall in the documentary “Dieppe Uncovered” which premiered on History Television on the 70th anniversary of the raid. Historian David O’Keefe argues that the real reason behind the Dieppe raid was to provide cover for an intelligence mission or “pinch operation” to get German naval code books related to the new German four-rotor Enigma machine. The “Ultra” secret – the Allied codename for intelligence gathered from reading Enigma traffic – was closely held by the Allies and not officially acknowledged until the early 1970s. It is not surprising that the role of a secret unit tasked with capturing German intelligence material was also kept out of the history books. O’Keefe is one of the first historians to shed light on the role of a special commando outfit, known as 30 Assault Unit, at Dieppe. The documentary examines the role of Ian Fleming, the legendary author of the James Bond novels, in coordinating the actions of this commando force at Dieppe. Like the operation in general, 30 Assault Unit did not succeed in its mission, but the revelation of this mission by O’Keefe greatly enriches our understanding of the raid and shows that new secrets can be revealed even 70 years later.

There are a number of minor problems with Zuehlke’s book which detract the reader. The 25-pounder guns of Roberts’ 1st Field Regiment, RCA are identified as “24-pounders” (p.65) and Air Vice-Marshal Trafford Leigh-Mallory, the air commander for the operation, is mid-identified as “Vice Air-Marshal Trafford.” (p.185). Another problem with the book is the nature of the index which appears to have been compiled using a key word search rather than by an informed eye. For example, if you are looking to read about the actions of the Royal Regiment of Canada on Blue Beach you will find no entry in the index under the regiment, but rather, you need to search for “Blue Beach.” This error is repeated for numerous topics.

http://canadianmilitaryhistory.ca/review-of-mark-zuehlkes-tragedy-at-dieppe-operation-jubilee-august-19-1942-by-mike-bechthold/



C.U.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 13:51:49 by Chispa »
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