Author Topic: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020  (Read 18960 times)

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Offline Furniture

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #175 on: June 21, 2020, 16:23:42 »
They don’t use compatible radio systems. They DID assist by taking other unrelated calls on behalf of the RCMP to free up members, but they weren’t able to safely integrate on the primary call. Truro police on the road couldn’t talk to RCMP and vice versa. You can probably imagine how hugely dangerous that is. I’ve worked on the road in a jurisdiction where multiple uniformed police services overlap and don’t share radios. It can be a huge problem. Those other police services were better used taking other calls, and they did.

Bear in mind that for a considerable portion of the night he was *not* an active shooter (or ‘active threat’ in our parlance). His behaviour had changed, he had gone to ground, though all police knew is there were no longer new scenes coming in. That changes some aspects of the response. With an active threat you throw everything you have at the threat based on information about their location, which will generally continue to flow in. Once they are no longer actively killing, you slow it down, work the problem, gather info, and try to find, contain, and safely capture the suspect. In this case once he stopped killing for the night and took off, what they had was an immensely overwhelmed gaggle of night shift members, a critical incident command team establishing itself, an already horrendously complex investigation, and a whole lot of info to try to gather, corroborate, and act on. They were flooding resources in from the length of NS and from NB, but that takes time, and police services don’t ‘ad hoc’ an ORBAT on the fly nearly as capably as the military does.

There will undoubtedly be a full inquiry of this, likely resulting in something similar to the MacNeil report following the Moncton murders. Like that one, it will take time.

Transparency is important, but we also don’t know what other investigative angles are being worked, likely including the trafficking of firearms across the border. We will learn more in time, but wanting answers now does not mean we’re entitled to answers now. I’d rather they run absolutely everything down and then offer that up. The public generally has no clue how tremendously complex a major investigation is. Even with a dead suspect, all of this still needs to be meticulous in case it forms the basis for subsequent legal proceedings involving other parties.

Interesting insight, thanks for sharing. Perhaps inept is the wrong word to use in this case.

We also don't 'perp-walk' an accused in front of cameras or release mugshots.  I'm not sure how "useful" this information other than to satisfy public curiosity.  What is value is the shooter's criminal record?  Does it establish that he did it or just likely to do it?  At that point, they are convicted of nothing.

The singular goal in a major criminal investigation is to put the puck in the net - identify a suspect and obtain a conviction.  If something is released that is later determined to be incorrect, you have an uncertainty or inconsistency.  It all becomes part of the disclosure package.  Do that enough times and defence counsel will try to call all of it into question.  The more times a Crown witness has to clarify inconsistencies, say 'ya but' or 'I don't know' in front of a jury the better the defence case gets.  It's almost got to point now that not only do you have to prove the accused did it but prove that nobody else on the planet could have.

Obviously, in the NS case, a trial is not in the offing, but that is common investigative standard.  Besides, an inquest or inquiry is inevitable.

The problem is, the people being served by the police have expectations. If people don't have faith that the police are doing everything they can, and are sharing everything they can with the public, the public will lose faith in the system. I understand investigations require time, and not everything can be released as it may impact the investigation. What apparently happens though is that the police default to not releasing anything, and fight any attempt to get more information.

A perfect example from the case being discussed is; Why was it so long before the RCMP confirmed he had no firearms license? It would have been a quick search to see if there was a license linked to his name, and address. Would confirming his lack of a firearms license impact the trial that won't happen, or did it serve to help the politicians who were pushing a blatantly partisan policy through to try to get some good news, and tick off an election promise? Why were the actual firearms used not released, same as the license?

Maybe that isn't why it took so long to confirm a simple detail, but it sure looks that way, and that undermines the credibility of the police. Now clearly not everybody feels that way about this case, but with every case they pull these stunts they undermine their credibility a bit more with more people.

Now to be clear, I'm not anti-police at all. My concern is that the police forces across Canada have not learned the lesson on openness and accountability the CAF had to learn the hard way.


Offline lenaitch

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #176 on: June 21, 2020, 21:58:23 »
Interesting insight, thanks for sharing. Perhaps inept is the wrong word to use in this case.

The problem is, the people being served by the police have expectations. If people don't have faith that the police are doing everything they can, and are sharing everything they can with the public, the public will lose faith in the system. I understand investigations require time, and not everything can be released as it may impact the investigation. What apparently happens though is that the police default to not releasing anything, and fight any attempt to get more information.

A perfect example from the case being discussed is; Why was it so long before the RCMP confirmed he had no firearms license? It would have been a quick search to see if there was a license linked to his name, and address. Would confirming his lack of a firearms license impact the trial that won't happen, or did it serve to help the politicians who were pushing a blatantly partisan policy through to try to get some good news, and tick off an election promise? Why were the actual firearms used not released, same as the license?

Maybe that isn't why it took so long to confirm a simple detail, but it sure looks that way, and that undermines the credibility of the police. Now clearly not everybody feels that way about this case, but with every case they pull these stunts they undermine their credibility a bit more with more people.

Now to be clear, I'm not anti-police at all. My concern is that the police forces across Canada have not learned the lesson on openness and accountability the CAF had to learn the hard way.

I agree, and some Forces do it better than others.  It's a dance, and the dance was probably easier when the media was all professional, with large outlets having 'crime reporters', who better understood why things were not said, and before social media.  Culturally, cops aren't big at sharing, but what is said and not said has to be credible.  We had one instance where a member was doing a live interview saying he could neither confirm or deny that a homicide had occurred while, at the same time in view of the cameras, a body was being carted out the house in the background.   Most large Forces have dedicated and fairly extensively training media relations members' however, many do not have extensive criminal backgrounds.  Neither do many senior police commanders these days, and operational leaders are often put in a position of not telling their superiors of every investigative detail, for fear that something will slip out at a press conference.  Some demand to know ('I'm the boss') until they are reminded that their name could end up in the Crown Brief.  I have witnessed that and it is uncomfortable.

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #177 on: June 27, 2020, 18:03:59 »

Crown says release of N.S. mass shooting details could harm 'massive' probe


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/crown-ns-shooting-details-could-harm-massive-probe-1.5630044
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #178 on: July 18, 2020, 20:13:51 »
The Halifax Examiner has published a lengthy description and critique of the RCMP response, written by Paul Palango.

“An epic failure”: The first duty of police is to preserve life; through the Nova Scotia massacre, the RCMP saved no one


This posting made in accordance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 2(b):
Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/1.html

Offline Remius

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #179 on: July 18, 2020, 20:34:13 »
Just read that.

Sounds like a mess if any of it is true.

Edit:

The author has made a career of going after the RCMP in his written work,  I can%u2019t verify how accurate any of it is though.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 20:38:29 by Remius »
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #180 on: July 18, 2020, 20:46:34 »
Just read that.

Sounds like a mess if any of it is true.

Some of it is accurate. A fair bit of it, particularly the parts where Palango inserts his own beliefs and assumptions, is right out of 'er. Pretty much everything he says about the initial responses - particularly with regards to IARD, containment, and the initial critical incident command - is completely worthless. IARD (I instruct it) is a response used when intelligence tells you the threat you're moving towards. If you no longer have shots, screams, or fresh witnesses pointing you towards the threat, it doesn't work. Absent those you're fumbling around in the dark.

Separately, I'm not sure how they imagine you can set up roadblocks and containment when you have a skeletal overnight crew, a half dozen crime scenes, and other first responders (fire, paramedics) to protect. I like his backhanded slam at the critical incident commander 'never attending the scene'. No crap. He's not supposed to. His role is in the CP lining up and deploying resources and making tactical decisions, not sucked into any one part of the situation. It's like asking why the battalion commander wasn't with Charlie team when they took the trench. He talks about how on the morning, they didn't call in many other cops- that's patently false. They called a ton, from all over the province, the situation simply ended with the shooter's death before many of them were in a position to assist, though many subsequently provided security at the various crime scenes. He makes lots of noise about not involving other police services, even though as I've previously discussed they didn't have compatible radios, and they did assist RCMP by taking other calls to free up Mounties. He talks about ERT just 'standing around' and not deploying to specific sites, but that's not how ERT works. They go whent here's a target area concretely identified so they don't get caught in place A when suddenly they're needed in place B. He tries to suggest the presence of a crisis negotiator suggests police had contact with the shooter, but in actuality a crisis negotiator is a part of the standard ERT / critical incident deployment package, along with several other things.

Lots of other things he gets wrong, but that's not atypical of his articles and I'm not going to take the time to dissect it further. Put stock in it if you choose to. I personally don't. There were definite things that could be improved, but fundamentally the attacker set himself up with a huge advantage, and hit an area that was very sparsely manned with police officers. He did so in just such a way as to cause maximum confusion, consume maximum police resources, but get himself out of danger spots before there could be a response.
+750 « Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 21:52:12 by Brihard »
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #181 on: July 22, 2020, 17:57:48 »
Some of it is accurate. A fair bit of it, particularly the parts where Palango inserts his own beliefs and assumptions, is right out of 'er. Pretty much everything he says about the initial responses - particularly with regards to IARD, containment, and the initial critical incident command - is completely worthless. IARD (I instruct it) is a response used when intelligence tells you the threat you're moving towards. If you no longer have shots, screams, or fresh witnesses pointing you towards the threat, it doesn't work. Absent those you're fumbling around in the dark.

Separately, I'm not sure how they imagine you can set up roadblocks and containment when you have a skeletal overnight crew, a half dozen crime scenes, and other first responders (fire, paramedics) to protect. I like his backhanded slam at the critical incident commander 'never attending the scene'. No crap. He's not supposed to. His role is in the CP lining up and deploying resources and making tactical decisions, not sucked into any one part of the situation. It's like asking why the battalion commander wasn't with Charlie team when they took the trench. He talks about how on the morning, they didn't call in many other cops- that's patently false. They called a ton, from all over the province, the situation simply ended with the shooter's death before many of them were in a position to assist, though many subsequently provided security at the various crime scenes. He makes lots of noise about not involving other police services, even though as I've previously discussed they didn't have compatible radios, and they did assist RCMP by taking other calls to free up Mounties. He talks about ERT just 'standing around' and not deploying to specific sites, but that's not how ERT works. They go whent here's a target area concretely identified so they don't get caught in place A when suddenly they're needed in place B. He tries to suggest the presence of a crisis negotiator suggests police had contact with the shooter, but in actuality a crisis negotiator is a part of the standard ERT / critical incident deployment package, along with several other things.

Lots of other things he gets wrong, but that's not atypical of his articles and I'm not going to take the time to dissect it further. Put stock in it if you choose to. I personally don't. There were definite things that could be improved, but fundamentally the attacker set himself up with a huge advantage, and hit an area that was very sparsely manned with police officers. He did so in just such a way as to cause maximum confusion, consume maximum police resources, but get himself out of danger spots before there could be a response.

FWIW, even in hotly contested terrorist territory, where thousands of troops and police are available 24/7, one bad guy can do, and has done, alot of damage.

In my (not hugely extensive) experience, there's nothing harder than a hot pursuit in a rural area against a well equipped and determined opponent. And that includes the 'blue on blue' stuff, sadly.
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Offline lenaitch

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #182 on: July 24, 2020, 17:18:35 »
Had a chance to read the article.  To add to comments already posted;

- He seems rather enthralled by roadblocks (checkpoints).  They have their utility in some circumstances, but gobble up a lot of people.  Absolute minimum of 2 members each, one with a long gun.  I don't know how he expected them to be in place in any numbers until sufficient staffing was assembled (considering all the other tasks that needed to be done as well).

- Large numbers of police officers on one channel.  Sounds like the 'good' old days.

- 'Many members from other detachments didn't know the area'.  Well, no crap.

- As mentioned, tactical deployment (we called it 'IRD - Initial Rapid Deployment) assumes an active threat in a given known area.  Otherwise, you are wandering around in the dark.

- The UK has (or at least had, it's been a while) a Gold-Silver-Bronze operational command system.  Gold (if required) is executive command; political leadership, etc. usually at a designated operations centre.  Silver is incident command, usually at an local operations centre, often co-located with communications, for the incident commander, scribe, intelligence, etc.  Bronze is on-scene command; tactical team leaders, i/c investigation, uniform team leaders, etc.  In this case, if the author expected the incident command to be on-scene, which scene?  It would look like that scene from 'Airplane' where the gate keeps changing.

- The author seems to be pretty blase about the safety of a non-police aircraft providing assistance.  Low altitude searching for a fugitive armed with a high-powered rifle has all sorts of risks, and I will assume a natural resources aircraft has neither infrared or night vision.  Even if it was an RCMP helicopter, I honestly don't know what the operational protocols are, but the pilot-in-command has a general responsibility for the safe operation of their aircraft.  If someone is decent with a rifle, a helicopter at low altitude can be pretty vulnerable.

It seems the announced 'review' has satisfied few, if any.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7211458/nova-scotia-shooting-public-inquiry-review-rcmp/
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Offline Remius

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #183 on: July 24, 2020, 17:21:43 »
Some of it is accurate. A fair bit of it, particularly the parts where Palango inserts his own beliefs and assumptions, is right out of 'er. Pretty much everything he says about the initial responses - particularly with regards to IARD, containment, and the initial critical incident command - is completely worthless. IARD (I instruct it) is a response used when intelligence tells you the threat you're moving towards. If you no longer have shots, screams, or fresh witnesses pointing you towards the threat, it doesn't work. Absent those you're fumbling around in the dark.

Separately, I'm not sure how they imagine you can set up roadblocks and containment when you have a skeletal overnight crew, a half dozen crime scenes, and other first responders (fire, paramedics) to protect. I like his backhanded slam at the critical incident commander 'never attending the scene'. No crap. He's not supposed to. His role is in the CP lining up and deploying resources and making tactical decisions, not sucked into any one part of the situation. It's like asking why the battalion commander wasn't with Charlie team when they took the trench. He talks about how on the morning, they didn't call in many other cops- that's patently false. They called a ton, from all over the province, the situation simply ended with the shooter's death before many of them were in a position to assist, though many subsequently provided security at the various crime scenes. He makes lots of noise about not involving other police services, even though as I've previously discussed they didn't have compatible radios, and they did assist RCMP by taking other calls to free up Mounties. He talks about ERT just 'standing around' and not deploying to specific sites, but that's not how ERT works. They go whent here's a target area concretely identified so they don't get caught in place A when suddenly they're needed in place B. He tries to suggest the presence of a crisis negotiator suggests police had contact with the shooter, but in actuality a crisis negotiator is a part of the standard ERT / critical incident deployment package, along with several other things.

Lots of other things he gets wrong, but that's not atypical of his articles and I'm not going to take the time to dissect it further. Put stock in it if you choose to. I personally don't. There were definite things that could be improved, but fundamentally the attacker set himself up with a huge advantage, and hit an area that was very sparsely manned with police officers. He did so in just such a way as to cause maximum confusion, consume maximum police resources, but get himself out of danger spots before there could be a response.

I’m leery of the author given his history going after the RCMP for so long so I assume there is some bias on his part. 
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #184 on: July 24, 2020, 17:32:46 »
The push back and run around doesn't help the situation. I get that buddy may be connected to whatever criminal element and it's being investigated, I'm usually the first to suggest people should back off and let police do their job, but there's a lot of weird things with this one.
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #185 on: July 27, 2020, 20:03:22 »
Quote
Nova Scotia gunman allegedly smuggled guns and drugs from U.S.: court docs

By Andrew Russell Global News
Posted July 27, 2020 2:00 pm


The gunman in the Nova Scotia shooting that killed 22 people was alleged to have trafficked drugs and firearms from the United States, according to newly unsealed documents from the provincial court in Nova Scotia.

Following the shooting, one unidentified witness told police that they were aware that “[Gabriel Wortman] had smuggled guns and drugs from Maine for years and had a stockpile of guns,” the documents say.

“Gabriel Wortman smuggled drugs from Maine and had a bag of 10,000 oxy-contin pills and 15,000 dilaudid from a reservation in New Brunswick,” a witness told Halifax Regional Police, according to the documents.

The same witness, who first met the gunman in 2011, also told police that the gunman “builds fires and burns bodies, is a sexual predator, and supplies drugs in Portapique and Economy, Nova Scotia.”

More at link

http://globalnews.ca/news/7222849/nova-scotia-gunman-allegedly-smuggled-guns-and-drugs-from-u-s-court-docs/

Nothing to see here folks, RCMP and Government are being 100% transparent and telling the truth about this guy  :rofl:
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Offline materialpigeonfibre

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Re: Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020
« Reply #186 on: July 27, 2020, 21:06:58 »
Small crazy world.

I was in Nova Scotia in Kentville. I was doing enemy force.
The gal I was going to marry got pregnant. It wasn't mine. I hit the blueberry ale pretty hard at Paddy's pub downtown.

A man comes in spinning a tale of how he was desperate, how he was going to loose he house, he was kicked out, got swindled out of the house, how he was trying in the courts but it wasn't likely to work.
Such a crazy story. But he spun it for an hour.
I humored him. How do you loose a house? You must have signed something.

I have a feeling it was wortman.
Unless that's a common thing in NS.

I read this, this morning.  Agreed something is rotten...

Aye, something is rotten. Why is macleans suddenly waking up and doing reporting?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 01:09:16 by materialpigeonfibre »