Author Topic: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty  (Read 295829 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #525 on: May 12, 2019, 12:25:55 »
[quote author=daftandbarmy link=topic=16198.msg1570887#msg1570887 date=1557260120

Yeah, we're committed alright. To the strip on land about 200 miles wide along the US Border that contains 99.9% of Canadian voters.


Every time i go home and see the poverty of Northern Ontario, my exact sentiments to this statement are reinforced. When I speak to seniors who live up there, they tell me they are living on land that no one can make useful after it has been exploited, all the benefit of the land has gone to the wealth of that 200 mile strip. I think this true. I also think that will never change in the lifetime of anyone is alive today, or in 50 years.

I was shocked at how little infrastructure there is in Northern ontario. Every other Province has put far more effort to open their northern regions, considering their historical headstart, it's plain laziness of the politicians and voters.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #526 on: May 12, 2019, 16:20:56 »
That, Colin is because Ontarian think that North Bay is way up in the North and there is nothing beyond.  :nod:

Little do they realize that North Bay is only very slightly North of Ottawa or Montreal, and definitely South of most other non-Ontarian large Canadian cities, like Quebec, St. John's, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver (yes! Vancouver).

Since most Of Ontario's population live in that southern "dagger" into the US, their view of what constitutes "North" is skewed.

Toronto's "We the North" motto for  expressing support for the Raptors is sort of funny when you consider that they are barely more than 130 Km North of Boston (Celtics), and are themselves 140 Km South of the Minneapolis' Timberwolves and definitely 245 Km South of the Portland Trailblazers.

Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #527 on: May 12, 2019, 19:22:40 »
Given the amount of effort Ontario put into first put into aquiring the North in the first place. Including the infamous Rat Portage war of 1883.
You would think they would take better care of it!
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #528 on: May 12, 2019, 20:41:44 »
That, Colin is because Ontarian think that North Bay is way up in the North and there is nothing beyond.  :nod:

Heck, I think most Ontarians think the Muskoka's are the end of civilization!

Quote
Little do they realize that North Bay is only very slightly North of Ottawa or Montreal, and definitely South of most other non-Ontarian large Canadian cities, like Quebec, St. John's, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Calgary or Vancouver (yes! Vancouver).

Not only that, but it is also south of the 49th parallel - the international border between western Canada and the US.
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Online Old Sweat

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #529 on: May 13, 2019, 06:53:28 »
My wife, who is a Northern Ontario girl but taught in Toronto for a number of years, used to say that the average Toronto resident thought the north started at Eglinton Avenue.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #530 on: May 13, 2019, 09:37:15 »
My wife, who is a Northern Ontario girl but taught in Toronto for a number of years, used to say that the average Toronto resident thought the north started at Eglinton Avenue.

As someone who grew up in Windsor, Ontario.....don't ask me where the 'North' starts.....

Offline Calvillo

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #531 on: May 13, 2019, 09:56:35 »
Or Canada could just put on its adult clothes and actually pay the real costs of sovereignty.

Instead of just mouthing platitudes.

While I understand what you wrote, but pay with what? Are we ready for tax increase or cuts to other government services or cuts to social benefits?

Online YZT580

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #532 on: May 13, 2019, 10:15:04 »
While I understand what you wrote, but pay with what? Are we ready for tax increase or cuts to other government services or cuts to social benefits?
  Yes, quit subsidising laziness and supporting leeches also known as multiple layers of bureaucracy.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #533 on: May 13, 2019, 10:20:49 »
  Yes, quit subsidising laziness and supporting leeches also known as multiple layers of bureaucracy.

100% Agree -

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #534 on: May 13, 2019, 10:22:08 »
While I understand what you wrote, but pay with what? Are we ready for tax increase or cuts to other government services or cuts to social benefits?

We could start with 'not giving the money away that we need for ourselves'.  Why not stop wasting the tax money the government already gets and prioritize spending better? 

I know. silly ideas.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #535 on: May 13, 2019, 11:00:31 »
BC has invested more effort in our Northern Regions with a much smaller population base and less time. A lot of it due to politicians who had large visions like WAC Bennett.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #536 on: May 15, 2019, 12:27:09 »
Following through on USN's, USCG's and Sec. Pompeo's big arctic talk (though not actually there):

Quote
Theodore Roosevelt Strike Group in Alaska for High-End, Joint Exercise Northern Edge 2019

An aircraft carrier is in Alaska for Exercise Northern Edge for the first time in a decade, as the service continues to prioritize re-learning how to operate in the Arctic.

Northern Edge 2019 is a high-end joint exercise hosted by U.S. Indo-Pacific Command and focused on air warfare that runs May 13 through 24. About 10,000 personnel are participating, about half of which come from the Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group currently operating in the Gulf of Alaska. Strike group assets include Carrier Strike Group 9 leadership, USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71), Carrier Air Wing 11, USS Russell (DDG-59), USS Kidd (DDG-100), USS John Finn (DDG-113) and USNS Henry J. Kaiser (T-AO-187).

Rear Adm. Dan Dwyer, who commands the Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group, told USNI News in a phone call from aboard the carrier that “this is one of the premier exercises for the INDO-PACIFIC commanders. … Northern Edge is designed to sharpen all of our skills, tactical combat operating skills; improve our ability to command and control forces, establish those command relationships; develop our communication networks; with an overall goal of increasing interoperability within the joint force, particularly in the INDO-PACOM region.”

He said the exercise covers command and control over both land and maritime domains, and so “all participants, whether it’s the air wing or the destroyers, are integral to that mission set and each all plug into the higher command and control piece” to share information and work together under a single joint force commander.

Dwyer said his crew was excited to begin the joint event, which would pair the carrier air wing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, EA-18G Growlers and E-2 Hawkeyes with ground-based Navy P-8A Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft, Marine Corps F-35B Joint Strike Fighters and KC-130 cargo and refueling aircraft, and Air Force jets such as the F-22 and F-15. Any time that many types of aircraft come together to work in a range of mission areas “is incredibly valuable, especially as we talk about exercising at the highest potential of a joint force. So to come together with all those platforms will increase our readiness and our lethality across the board.”

This opportunity is especially valuable to the Navy as it seeks to relearn old lessons about operating in the high latitudes. Last year’s Harry S. Truman Carrier Strike Group deployment included a jaunt north of the Arctic Circle and in frigid Norwegian waters before and during the NATO exercise Trident Juncture 2018.

Dwyer said he couldn’t speak to the Truman CSG experience, but he said the Navy has operated in the Alaskan Gulf area for 30 years and had many after-action reports for the strike group team to pore over ahead of the exercise.

“As Navy Secretary Richard Spencer told Congress recently, the Navy is deepening our commitment to Arctic security and operations in Alaska,” the admiral said.

“The Alaskan (operating area) is critical to the INDO-PACOM region. The expansive training areas offered here in Alaska provide us with an excellent environment to fully engage and conduct integrated, large-scale joint training exercises unmatched anywhere else in the United States, I must say. The Arctic ice cap is as small as we’ve seen in our lifetime, and this gives rise to increasing trade routes and sea lanes that are open more times of the year, so it’s incredibly important that we as an Arctic nation continue to operate in this area to protect this vital area to our national defense.”..
https://news.usni.org/2019/05/14/theodore-roosevelt-strike-group-in-alaska-for-high-end-joint-exercise-northern-edge-2019

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #537 on: May 20, 2019, 10:31:07 »
Some good points from Prof. Huebert--US seems blissfully unaware to our extreme paranoia on this matter:

Quote
Winning at all costs: the bizarre position of the Trump administration on the Northwest Passage

Robert Huebert is an associate professor at the University of Calgary

At the conclusion of the Arctic Council meeting earlier this month, U.S. Secretary of State Michael Pompeo stated that Canada’s position on the Northwest Passage is “illegitimate." This should be the definitive proof that the Trump administration cares only about winning, with no regard to its own interests, let alone those of its closest ally and economic partner – Canada.

Mr. Pompeo’s statement is only the latest in a series of comments by Trump administration officials who have made it clear that it is now time to win their argument with Canada regarding the status of the Northwest Passage. The Americans have always maintained that it is an international strait, while Canada argues it is internal waters. The difference in these two positions concerns international shipping through the passage. If Canada is correct, then we have the right to either allow or refuse the entry of foreign vessels in the passage. If the American position prevails, then all international shipping – including submarines – can use the passage regardless of Canada’s position.

In 1988, through the direct involvement of then-president Ronald Reagan – a Republican – and then-prime minister Brian Mulroney the two countries reached a practical solution to the dispute. Agreeing that this solution would not prejudice each other’s position on the passage, the United States would ask Canada for consent for its icebreakers – the only American surface ships capable – to traverse the passage. In return, Canada would automatically grant the consent. With this solution, neither state could be viewed as giving ground and it was a means to avoid politically costly disputes over the issue.

However, due to Mr. Trump’s pathological need to win, the Americans are set to disregard this solution and win the dispute. The U.S. Secretary of the Navy – Richard Spencer – has publicly stated three time this year that the United States is preparing for what they call a freedom of navigation operation through the Northwest Passage. This means sending their one operationally functioning icebreaker or a naval ship through the passage without asking Canada for permission. The idea is not only a direct, stupid insult to Canada, but it is also directly against U.S. interests.

First, while lambasting the Canadian position, Mr. Pompeo also attacked Russia and China for their moves to militarize the Arctic. Given that Russia is actively militarizing and China may soon be taking similar action, the United States’ move to attack Canada, its most important ally, while meeting this threat makes no sense. If the Americans are really concerned about the rise of Russian military strength in the Arctic, they need Canada to help meet the threat.

Specifically, the North American Aerospace Defence Command needs to be modernized to counter the growing Russian threat in the Arctic, and that cannot occur without Canada’s participation, given our Arctic geography and long-standing co-operation on this issue. Given this backdrop, it is astounding that the Americans think provoking Canada on one of the most politically sensitive issues regarding Canadian-U.S. relations is rational. What Canadian prime minister will want to work with the United States to modernize our shared northern defences if they destroy the 1988 agreement that had politically resolved the problem of the Northwest Passage?

Secondly, a freedom of navigation challenge will create a lose-lose situation for the U.S. If the Americans conduct a successful voyage and use that operation at an international court to win their position that the NWP is an international strait, they will open the passage to unimpeded transit of Russian and Chinese submarines and aircraft. Under international law, submarines enjoy the right of transit passage through international straits submerged. If the United States are really concerned about a rising Russian and Chinese threat in the Arctic, how can they possibly believe this is a good thing?

On the other hand, if the ship they send fails to make the transit, whether due to ice conditions or the lack of proper charting in these waters, then all they will have done is prove the Canadian position that these waters are unique and are not a functioning international strait.

Further, the United States will have damaged its relations with Canada. Whether Mr. Trump succeeds or fails in the Arctic, he will have seriously hurt the U.S. relationship with Canada right at the moment they need to be working more closely with us.

While Mr. Trump may get to claim that once again he has won where others have not, what he will actually do is seriously hurt American interests and cause further damage to the special relationship that existed between Canada and the United States.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-winning-at-all-costs-the-bizarre-position-of-the-trump-administration/

Mark
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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #538 on: May 20, 2019, 11:53:27 »
Some good points from Prof. Huebert--US seems blissfully unaware to our extreme paranoia on this matter:

Mark
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The Americans don't accept our position because it undermines their own military position.  If the NWP became internal waters than the US would not be able to conduct their own submarine operations either. 

IMO, Canada's position is severely weakened by our lack of military capability.  We have no ability to enforce anything and the US is going to do whatever they want, regardless of our position.

Offline Underway

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #539 on: May 20, 2019, 14:04:50 »
The Americans don't accept our position because it undermines their own military position.  If the NWP became internal waters than the US would not be able to conduct their own submarine operations either. 

IMO, Canada's position is severely weakened by our lack of military capability.  We have no ability to enforce anything and the US is going to do whatever they want, regardless of our position.

The Americans don't accept our position because if they did they would have to accept North Korea's, Libya's, Russia's and China's position (and a number of others) regarding straight baselines.  They can't without overturning their own foreign policy for actual important countries.  Thus the great compromise.  The US won't sail without asking permission and Canada will never say no.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #540 on: May 20, 2019, 14:10:09 »
Also several passages and straits in and around Indonesian archipelago:



Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #541 on: May 20, 2019, 14:14:43 »
In any event our claim to NW Passage under international law is pretty weak, which is why no gov't has dared take it to international arbitration. See this article by Prof. James Kraska ( https://usnwc.edu/Faculty-and-Departments/Directory/James-Kraska ) at p. 41 PDF:
https://cdainstitute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/vimy_paper2.pdf

Lots more on Prof. Kraska, quite the biography--note service in USN:
https://cnsl.virginia.edu/james-kraska

Mark
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 14:28:49 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #542 on: May 20, 2019, 15:24:11 »
Well-informed friend comments: "It will be interesting to see the USA response when the Russians and Chinese start doing FON operations in the Northwest Passage…"

Mark
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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #543 on: May 20, 2019, 15:57:28 »
Also several passages and straits in and around Indonesian archipelago:



Mark
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Seems a poor example to me. The difference in access and use have to be so many orders of magnitude as to approach a difference in kind. Lots of Indonesians walking across the water over there, is there?

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #544 on: May 20, 2019, 16:28:22 »
Seems a poor example to me. The difference in access and use have to be so many orders of magnitude as to approach a difference in kind. Lots of Indonesians walking across the water over there, is there?

No.  Lots of Chinese building islands out of submerged rocks over there.  Then planting docks and airfields on them.  Then arming them.





https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/30/world/asia/what-china-has-been-building-in-the-south-china-sea.html

And as to Russians and Chinese operating in the Northwest Passage

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chinese-ship-making-first-voyage-through-canadas-northwest-passage/article36142513/
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/chinese-military-expanding-reach-into-arctic-region-pentagon-fears-it-will-deploy-nuclear-armed-submarines


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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #545 on: May 20, 2019, 22:02:21 »
From a friend very knowledgeable about the US and its gov't:

Quote
There has always been a school of thought in Washington that sees Canada as a spoiled pet. In this view, the USA should simply exert its power and demand obedience. What we see with this Administration is the absence of canned Canada-USA Happy Talk.

Endless failure to pay our fair share coming home to roost. Time to spend for "defence against help"? As we once were willing to do. Plus then having the sensible decency to recognize that there were actually existing enemies (now "adversaries") out there and it was Canada's duty as a serious country to, er, do its bit.

No more. Upchuck.

Mark
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #546 on: May 22, 2019, 12:32:57 »
Slight reprieve from USCG:

Quote
New U.S. icebreaker will focus on Antarctic, says Coast Guard boss

The Coast Guard expects to launch the first of three new icebreakers in 2024, but don’t expect to see much of it in Alaska. Coast Guard Commandant Karl Schultz said Tuesday the primary duty of the first icebreaker will be in the Antarctic, not the Far North.

“Until that second or third (polar) security cutter, we won’t really have much of a game up there, in terms of presence,” Adm. Schultz told a U.S. House Transportation subcommittee.

The new icebreaker’s essential mission will be to clear a path for supply ships serving the McMurdo Station. It takes more than 100 days to get to Antarctica, which would leave little time for trips to the Arctic. Schultz isn’t taking that lightly. He said physical presence on Arctic waters is vital for national security.

“In the polar regions, presence equals influence,” he said. “And your Coast Guard is the sole surface presence protecting our rights and projecting sovereignty.”

Trump ‘upset’ by price tag

In April, the government awarded a contract for up to three icebreakers to VT Halter Marine, a shipyard in Mississippi, in the southern US. Halter recently released some design details. The 460-foot hull will be able to break ice up to eight feet thick (2.4 meters). It will accommodate 186 people for up to 90 days at a time.

Schultz said the cost is expected to total $1.9 billion for the three ships [emphasis added--the Seaspan Diefenbreaker alone is put C$1.3B., good luck with that and lord knows when it might be delivered https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/mark-collins-seaspan-at-work-rcn-jsss-still-sliding-right-ccg-icebreaker-not-for-now/ )

House Transportation Chairman Peter DeFazio, D-Ore, said that’s a concern for President Trump.

“When I was at the White House a few weeks ago, the president was quite upset at the price tag per ship,” DeFazio said at the hearing.

A White House spokeswoman did not respond to an email asking about the president’s views on the icebreaker contract.

The shipbuilder says it will deliver the third icebreaker by 2027 [emphasis added].
http://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2019/05/22/icebreaker-usa-coast-guard-antarctic-arctic/

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #547 on: May 22, 2019, 13:20:32 »
I was at a LNG Trade show yesterday, NWT government was there touting the Tuk to Aisa route, also showing off it`s northern infrastructure, again Ontario fails in comparison. 

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #548 on: May 22, 2019, 16:35:14 »
I was at a LNG Trade show yesterday, NWT government was there touting the Tuk to Aisa route, also showing off it`s northern infrastructure, again Ontario fails in comparison.

...as opposed to the ‘Moose Factory to Asia’ route? ???

Online Spencer100

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Re: Defending Canadian Arctic Sovereignty
« Reply #549 on: May 22, 2019, 17:00:29 »
This may get Canadians to think and spend more on the Arctic.  Fear of the Russian or Chinese will not but those evil Americans...… :cold: :D

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/bolton-coast-guard-to-help-reassert-us-leadership-in-arctic/ar-AABKu3B?ocid=spartanntp