Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 785746 times)

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1850 on: February 03, 2018, 13:10:50 »
Quote
Delays in the design and engineering on the oceanographic science vessel mean that work on that ship – initially scheduled to start this spring – likely won’t get underway until spring 2019, at the earliest.

So they are stuck in "committee stage"....

I want this lab.....but there isn't any room.

I want a stateroom above the waterline .... but she's already top-heavy.

I want a new atomic absorption spectrometer ... but she's already over-budget.

So we have to build a bigger ship..... hold on while I go back to Treasury Board for more money.  I'll be back to you next year.
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1851 on: February 04, 2018, 13:06:35 »
See what France and Italy look like doing and how fast French navy may get new supply ships:
Quote
Naval Group Fincantieri Merger on Track - French Navy to Get LSS Logistics Vessels

The merger between Naval Group and Fincantieri, two major naval shipbuilding gourps, appear to be well on track following a high level ministerial meeting held in Rome on February 1st 2018. The first concrete symbol from this merger is likely to be the procurement by France of Vulcano class LSS Logistic Support Ships originally designed for the Italian Navy.

French Minister of the Armed Forces and Minister of Economy and Finance, traveled to Rome on Thursday 1 February 2018 to discuss the project of alliance between Naval Group and Fincantieri with their Italian counterparts and CEOs of both groups. This meeting was an opportunity to recall the determined support of France and Italy to this project of alliance and strengthening of the French-Italian naval industry. This meeting was followed by a meeting of the CEOs of both shipyards and the heads of French and Italian major defense companies Thales and Leonardo in Paris on February 2nd 2018. The ultimate goal is to create a leading European naval defense giant.

According to a French MoD press release, this alliance will allow the construction of a solid industrial and commercial project. between the two groups. This will be achieved through the joint design and construction of surface vessels, of which the logistic support and refueling vessel should be a prime example. This alliance will also enable the two companies to present a united front for military exports on heavily armed surface ships, based on a coordinated product policy and benefiting from international locations complementary of the two companies.

It appears that the three remaining Durance-class replenishment oilers (Var, Marne and Somme) of the French Navy (Marine Nationale) will be replaced with four Vulcano-class LSS. French President Macron announced last month that the "replenishment oilers would be replaced and their number increased". This will likely be formally confirmed in the next French military planning law (Loi de Programmation Militaire). Construction of the first French LSS could start around 2020 at St Nazaire / STX shipyard for a delivery two years later [emphasis adde--when will Seapan deliver?].

Back in September 2017, the French procurement agency awarded a contract to Naval Group to "study the adaptation of the Italian Vulcano design to the French Navy needs"...


https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/february-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/5917-naval-group-fincantieri-merger-on-track-french-navy-to-get-lss-logistics-vessels.html

The ship:

Quote
Vulcano Logistic Support Ship (LSS)
...
With a full-load displacement of 23,000t, the LSS can accommodate a total of 200 persons, including 167 crew members and special officers. Fully equipped hospital and healthcare facilities will be integrated in the ship to provide treatment for up to 12 injured personnel.

The logistics support ship will also have four replenishment stations amidships and one at the stern. Two special-purpose vessels will be carried on port and starboard sides in the middle of the ship to conduct search and rescue operations at sea.

The vessel will be able to embark up to eight residential and healthcare modules. A 30t capacity crane will be fitted to lift cargo into and out of ships.

The Vulcano will have a hangar towards the stern to house and maintain up to two EH101 Merlin utility helicopters. A flight will be placed next to the hangar to allow take-off and landing of a NH90 multi-role helicopter or an EH101 Merlin utility helicopter.

Self-defence for the LSS from surface targets is provided by two 25mm remotely controlled machine guns. The LSS can be optionally fitted with a 76mm main gun to engage air and surface targets [!!! emphasis added].

The vessel will carry diver detection sonar and obstacle avoidance sonar systems to detect, track and identify underwater threats and obstacles.

A modular, reconfigurable combat management system is installed to provide command and control for the onboard weapons and sensors. It also assists operators in situational awareness, planning and decision-making functions...
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/vulcano-logistic-support-ship-lss/

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Offline whiskey601

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1852 on: February 04, 2018, 14:30:44 »
Interesting.  I wonder what happened to the vaunted Brave class design, with its electric propulsion follow on.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1853 on: February 21, 2018, 08:01:29 »
Quote
Navy's new resupply vessel won't be able to deploy into war zones

OTTAWA — While the Royal Canadian Navy is chomping at the bit to start using the newest addition to its fleet, a senior officer says the MV Asterix has some limitations — notably that it can't sail into harm's way.

The Asterix's conversion from a civilian container ship to an interim naval resupply vessel is almost finished as weapons and other sensitive equipment are now being installed, said Commodore Craig Skjerpen, commander of Canada's Atlantic Fleet.

That work is expected to be finished in Halifax in March, at which point the vessel will undergo some final tests before heading to the Pacific to participate in a major, U.S.-led training exercise and then onward to the Asia-Pacific region.

The Asterix addresses a critical gap that emerged after the navy lost its previous resupply vessels in 2014, Skjerpen told The Canadian Press, and navy commanders plan to make heavy use of new ship in the coming years.

"If I wanted to draw an analogy of driving a car, we were always worried about where the next gas station was," he said of the impact of losing HMCS Protecteur and Preserver.

"So what this does is that where we're able to program Asterix, we can be less concerned about that. So we can go where we need to go."

But the Asterix isn't a true military vessel, Skjerpen said, which is why it won't be allowed to operate in dangerous environments.

That may not be an issue now, as the navy is not operating in any areas that be classified as overtly dangerous, but Skjerpen said: "All of our capabilities and everything we design and everything we need is about operating in that threat environment."

Two true military resupply vessels are scheduled to be built in Vancouver and will include more powerful self-defence systems than the Asterix as well as better communications equipment and overall survivability against attack.

"That's a pretty important part when you start talking about a military vessel and something you're going to operate in a threat environment," Skjerpen said in explaining why those Vancouver-built vessels, known as the Protecteur class, are still needed.

"We want to provide the best capability possible to protect our people throughout. And that's some of the bigger things that we're going to get with the Protecteur class that you're not going to get out of Asterix or vessels like that."

The two new Protecteur-class vessels will also be crewed entirely by navy personnel, unlike the Asterix. It will have about 45 navy sailors responsible for resupply operations, while the captain and 30 crew members charged with actually sailing the vessel are all civilians.

"The civilian master is responsible for the safety of the vessel at all times," Skjerpen said. "At any time, like if the visibility is too low or the seas are too high ... the civilian master always has the right to not do something."

But the two new resupply ships won't be ready for several years, meaning the Asterix, which was converted by Quebec-based Davie Shipbuilding, will be the navy's only resupply ship for the foreseeable future.

"It's a pretty big step forward from not having something to having that capability," Skjerpen said.

The previous Conservative government awarded Davie a $700-million contract for the Asterix conversion and a five-year lease in summer 2015, with a five-year option afterward, after the navy's ancient resupply ships were forced into retirement.

The project gained notoriety in January 2017 after Vice-Admiral Mark Norman was suspended and court documents showed the RCMP suspected him of leaking secret documents to Davie over fears the Liberal government would cancel the project.

Norman remains suspended, but he has not been charged with any crime and has denied any wrongdoing.
http://www.timescolonist.com/navy-s-new-resupply-vessel-won-t-be-able-to-deploy-into-war-zones-1.23179752

Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1854 on: February 21, 2018, 10:48:01 »
http://www.timescolonist.com/navy-s-new-resupply-vessel-won-t-be-able-to-deploy-into-war-zones-1.23179752

Its not supposed to go into war zones.  And was never promoted as a fighting vessel.  It is not commissioned into the RCN.  This isn't news.  Its a move to stir up unfounded and ill informed negative sentiment.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1855 on: February 21, 2018, 10:53:15 »
http://www.davie.ca/resolve-frequently-asked-questions/

Quote
Can The Resolve-Class Naval Support Ship (Asterix) Serve In Combat Operations?

Yes. The ship can go wherever the Canadian Armed Forces require it to go. Operationally it is able to perform an identical role to that of the potential future Joint Support Ships (now renamed the Protecteur Class).

The ship is fitted with the same integrated navigational and tactical system and platform management system as the rest of the future surface fleet will have. Also significant measures were included in the rebuild of the ship to integrate the highest levels of redundancy and watertight integrity in case of damage. Asterix carries specialist insurance for coverage in war risk areas and operations in high risk scenarios.



The Canadian Armed Forces and all foreign navies will always avoid taking supply ships into direct combat due to their vulnerability. Instead, they will remain at a safe distance from any direct combat situation. Supply ships are a vulnerable target, carrying over 10,000 tonnes of fuel and ammunition and with limited armaments. Both the JSS and Asterix are classified as ‘non-combatants’ and neither are fitted with the kind of countermeasures or offensive systems required to enter into a direct combat situation.



While Asterix is innovative in many ways, the concept of converting a containership into a naval auxiliary ship is tried, tested and proven. In fact, the US Navy and (UK) Royal Navy have been doing it for years and those ships remain active today and have served in every combat operation of the past few decades. For example, the UK’s RFA Argus – another converted containership – served in the Gulf War, Bosnia, Sierra Leone and both Iraq wars. The US navy’s Algol Class – also a fleet of converted containerships – served in the very same combat operations.

Quote
Can Asterix And The Potential Future Joint Support Ship Sustain A Direct Hit?

Both are effectively tankers. Neither JSS nor Asterix have anti-explosive hardening on them, so a direct hit could destroy either. That is why navies do not take such replenishment ships into battle. They fuel when it is safe, escorted by submarines and destroyers.

Asterix is uniquely designed with simultaneous multiple code requirements being applied from both Transport Canada and Lloyd’s Register. It has been designed and approved against the most stringent regulations across a myriad of vessel types including naval rules, tanker rules, passenger ships rules, cargo ship rules and special purpose ship code and in each case with the strictest requirements being applied. It is most likely the most stringent governing code requirements placed on any commercial vessel ever to be built in Canada.


The vessel has seven main vertical zones and innumerous sub divisional watertight and fire tight zones contained within each one. The vessel meets the highest standards of damage stability and has been checked and approved against over 2700 combinations of major, and progressive damage conditions, surviving all and staying within final floating equilibrium angles less than that required for a passenger ship evacuation.


In terms of surviving a military strike, the idea that no breach will occur to some extent within the hull form of any vessel, naval or otherwise, with modern high-yield weapons is not smart thinking. Weapons manufacturers do not design torpedoes and missiles to have a blast yield of just the required amount not to breach a vessel built to national naval code requirements! In fact, quite the opposite. Breach to some extent is a real possibility in all vessels. Survivability and the ability to subdivide and contain are considered and applied to a very high level in the design of Asterix.

Quote
Does Having A Merchant Crew In Any Way Restrict The Vessel’s Operational Use?

Absolutely not. The entire auxiliary fleets of the US Navy, Royal Navy (UK) and many other navies are wholly operated by merchant seafarers. By having regular naval staff operate its naval support ships, Canada is in fact in the minority of world navies.

Quote
Can Asterix Go To The Arctic?

Yes – Asterix is capable of sailing in the Arctic during summer and has ice strengthening. The vessel is designed and certified for unrestricted worldwide service.


The JSS and Asterix are identically classed for Arctic operations. Neither has icebreaker capabilities, and they both can only operate in the Arctic in summer conditions. Neither has an advantage over the other.

Quote
Does Asterix Have Ammunition Certification?

The vessel has Transport Canada and Lloyd’s certification to carry dangerous goods including DG-1 cargoes or ammunition. In fact, the cargo storage capacity is 30% greater than JSS.

Quote
Where Can Asterix Dock?

Asterix can be docked at any Canadian dockyard, commercial dock, NATO dockyard or at any port throughout the world. In fact, the ship’s retractable thruster means it is able to maneuver itself into certain ports, such as those in the developing world, even when tugs are not available. The JSS has no such functionality.

And many, many more answers on the above link.
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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1856 on: February 21, 2018, 11:48:06 »
http://www.davie.ca/resolve-frequently-asked-questions/

And many, many more answers on the above link.

"Can" and "Won't" are two very different things.

Quote
But the Asterix isn't a true military vessel, Skjerpen said, which is why it won't be allowed to operate in dangerous environments

Also I quote from your first reply:

http://www.davie.ca/resolve-frequently-asked-questions/
Quote
Both the JSS and Asterix are classified as ‘non-combatants’ and neither are fitted with the kind of countermeasures or offensive systems required to enter into a direct combat situation.
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1857 on: February 21, 2018, 12:21:30 »
Quote
What Upgrades Can Be Performed To Asterix And How Long Would They Take?

To equal the potential future Joint Support Ship design in terms of self-defence, Asterix could be fitted with a Close-In Weapon System (or Phalanx). These bolt-on systems could be installed in a matter of days and dedicated areas onboard have already been hardened to accommodate them

Same as the Joint Support Ship, Asterix is designed and fitted for, but not with a Close-In Weapons System.
It is the decision of the Crown, and only the Crown’s to provide weapons system. As for installation, all CIWS are bolted on and installation of such a system is very straight forward. This is a controlled good that is only installed by the RCN, at a naval dockyard.


Other minor items such as installation of a different radar could be fitted within a single day, if required.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1858 on: February 21, 2018, 12:36:45 »
Sadly both vessels are good and would be complimentary to each other rather than the stupid either or situation we are in. I understand that emotions get raw when jobs and large contracts are at stake. We can easily use 2 Resolve class AOR’s and 2 JSS ships and the crewing arrangements of the Resolve reduces the personal issues and provide a potential deep sea training opportunity for Canada’s Merchant Marine personal and Naval Reservists. Having 4 AOR’s would give Canada some very effective ways to support our allies with minimal political risk. Canada of course will be to focus on penny pinching, regional bitching and political one-upmanship to realize the opportunities.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1859 on: February 21, 2018, 13:06:52 »


Now you are speculating on future upgrades.  All Davies is saying is we hardened some spots on the deck(s) in case you ever want to fit a CWIS. 

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1860 on: February 21, 2018, 13:53:37 »
Now you are speculating on future upgrades.  All Davies is saying is we hardened some spots on the deck(s) in case you ever want to fit a CWIS.

As far as I know no CWIS are being fitted in Halifax and I would take what Davie is saying in their Faq with a grain of sand. Most of what they say have a element of truth but are very creative with their wording. I would take what the Commodore is saying as gospel versus what Davie is saying.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 15:00:03 by Chief Stoker »
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Underway

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1861 on: February 21, 2018, 15:34:16 »
http://www.davie.ca/resolve-frequently-asked-questions/

And many, many more answers on the above link.

Chris.  I'm going to take the Cmdr's opinion on this, not Davie's.  If he says it's not a combat vessel and will not go into combat then that's what's going to happen.  Davie is just blowing smoke for politics sake.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1862 on: February 21, 2018, 15:48:29 »
As far as I know no CWIS are being fitted in Halifax and I would take what Davie is saying in their Faq with a grain of sand. Most of what they say have a element of truth but are very creative with their wording. I would take what the Commodore is saying as gospel versus what Davie is saying.

Exactly. 
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1863 on: February 21, 2018, 16:10:40 »
Isn't the CWIS more of a 'last line of defence' in the modern world of naval warfare vice the one-stop-shop?  If I wanted to take your gas can out and fired 4 missiles...not all from the same location...
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1864 on: February 21, 2018, 16:15:57 »
I'm not going to get into a debate with the Commodore. 

It is his view that the Asterix does not meet his requirements.  End of.  There are situations where he wouldn't sail the Asterix

Davie and the owners of the Asterix, Federal Fleet Services, seem to have a broader view of what they expect their ship to be able to do.
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1865 on: February 21, 2018, 16:20:36 »
In regards to the FAQ some more details on the cost, not sure I believe them or not.

The price for Asterix is $659 million.

The Government of Canada will pay approximately $520 million for the lease of the vessel over 10 years.

The additional services requested by Canada over the next ten years amounts to around $300 million.
This includes ship management, crewing, training, operations, maintenance, certifications, insurance, victualling, fuel and lubricants etc.



So $659 Million for the cost of the ship and conversion and we don't own it. $520 Million for the lease and $300 million for additional services. So 1.4 Billion to operate the ship over 10 years and we don't even own it?
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1866 on: February 21, 2018, 16:21:47 »
I'm not going to get into a debate with the Commodore. 

It is his view that the Asterix does not meet his requirements.  End of.  There are situations where he wouldn't sail the Asterix

Davie and the owners of the Asterix, Federal Fleet Services, seem to have a broader view of what they expect their ship to be able to do.

Easier to have a broader view when your trying to be the RCN's gas station.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1867 on: February 21, 2018, 16:24:09 »
I'm not going to get into a debate with the Commodore. 

It is his view that the Asterix does not meet his requirements.  End of.  There are situations where he wouldn't sail the Asterix

Davie and the owners of the Asterix, Federal Fleet Services, seem to have a broader view of what they expect their ship to be able to do.

You don't seem to see the difference in what it can do and what it will do.  And what it will do is directed by the Government of Canada with, I hope, consultation with Senior Naval Officers, not Davies.

In regards to the FAQ some more details on the cost, not sure I believe them or not.

The price for Asterix is $659 million.

The Government of Canada will pay approximately $520 million for the lease of the vessel over 10 years.

The additional services requested by Canada over the next ten years amounts to around $300 million.
This includes ship management, crewing, training, operations, maintenance, certifications, insurance, victualling, fuel and lubricants etc.



So $659 Million for the cost of the ship and conversion and we don't own it. $520 Million for the lease and $300 million for additional services. So 1.4 Billion to operate the ship over 10 years and we don't even own it?

Yet. ;)
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1868 on: February 21, 2018, 16:28:02 »
In all my years sailing in the FARTs we always played silly bugger with close in ASW and such. This was great during peacetime operations. But any Fleet Commander who would put his logistic base in harms way better have a very damn good reason to do so. I don't care how many self defence weapons or watertight bulkheads you have, one torp or a salvo of SSM's will make short work of any AOR.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1869 on: February 21, 2018, 16:38:39 »
I do see the difference between what she can do (both as assessed by her owners and her customers) and what she will do (as required by her customer).

The customer wants her to do less than her owners believe she is capable of.  I don't see a problem.

As to the pricing issue -

She cost 659 Million to build.

FFS expects to receive 520 Million in Lease revenues and 300 Million in Operating revenues for a total revenue stream of 820 Million.  FFS will have out of pocket expenses for the crew and maintenance but will be reasonably expected to make a profit out of the 820 Million.

Should HMG buy her for the RCN today then the transfer price is 659 Million and FFS takes no profits from operating her.  The RCN will then absorb the full costs of crewing and maintenance.

Should HMG buy her in 5 years or 10 years time then she will be likely transferred at a significantly reduced rate.

The Government will not be paying 659 Million twice.  It will not be paying 1.4 Billion.

And by the way, seeing as how her owners believe she can do more than you want her to do, you can always experiment to see who is right.
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1870 on: February 21, 2018, 16:38:59 »
In all my years sailing in the FARTs we always played silly bugger with close in ASW and such. This was great during peacetime operations. But any Fleet Commander who would put his logistic base in harms way better have a very damn good reason to do so. I don't care how many self defence weapons or watertight bulkheads you have, one torp or a salvo of SSM's will make short work of any AOR.
 

It never failed to make us laugh during the Battle Problems to hear the pipe "Aircraft" or "Missiles" inbound... brace for shock"  and then go on to successfully conduct DC operations.  Lol.  We'd be that greasy black smoke on the horizon and fuel sheen on the surface of the water.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 18:50:45 by jollyjacktar »

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1871 on: February 21, 2018, 17:30:37 »
As far as I know no CWIS are being fitted in Halifax and I would take what Davie is saying in their Faq with a grain of sand. Most of what they say have a element of truth but are very creative with their wording. I would take what the Commodore is saying as gospel versus what Davie is saying.


Based on my experiences, I'd trust Davie's words over ISI's lies in a heartbeat.   :waiting:

The Commodore is the force employer though, so when it comes to deciding what operational environment the iAOR will be employed in, he's got an inside scoop over the rest of us.


I will note that looking back at history, the HMCS Terra Nova finished her career with the RCN fitted for, but not with CIWS as well....so....yeah, there's that.


The nice thing about the Phalanx/CIWS is that it requires no through-deck penetrations for setup/install.  All you need is a deck area that's large enough/strong enough to hold its weight and to distribute the recoil (not much from a 20mm) and a spot somewhere on the ship that you can run cables to and setup the Operator's Console(s). 


(OK, there's more to it than that, but Terra Nova's CIWS was installed and running in 10 days...)


NS

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1872 on: February 21, 2018, 17:36:36 »
This is from a recent collision, but you'll get the gist: This what an AOR typically will look like after a single hit by a missile or torpedo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsDOqabk5L4

And Chief, Chris Pook has the math right: It's 659 million if the government want to buy her right now and take her over.

Otherwise, it's 520 millions over 10 years going towards paying for her (with some interest rate in there somewhere) and 300 millions for the operation and the crew over the same 10 years. So 820 millions after ten years, or basically, 82 millions every year in the Navy O&M budget and after ten years, you can return her, no questions asked. Or, you can buy her any time along the way and some of the annual 52 millions dollars for the "rental" gets credited towards the construction cost of 659 millions.

For instance, let say that the rate of return is 3% for FFS (and I will use 660 millions vice 659 for ease of calculation), then, in the first year, , 19.8 millions of the 52 millions is interest and 32.2 millions is applied in reduction of the 659 million value. This leaves a value of 627 millions for the second year, so in that year, 18.8 millions are interest, and 33.2 millions are applied against the residual value, bringing it down to 593.8 millions, which is what Canada would have to pay if they want to acquire her after 2 years.

So you can see that, acquiring her after two years would cost the rental for two years, plus operations costs for two years plus residual value after two years: (2X52) + (2X30) + 593.8 = 757.8 millions.

Now, I have a calculator that does these types of calculations, and using 3% as FFS rate of return on investment (not a bad figures for these days), it tells me that, after 10 years, the residual value for the purchase of the iAOR would be 290 million dollars, give or take a few hundred grands. So if Canada was to acquire her at the end of the period, the total cost to taxpayers would be 1.110 Billion dollars, but that would include use and operations for the last ten years.

So three financial markers here: Outright acquisition right now: 659 Million $, but we then have to pay for her operation from now on; or 820 Million $ paid over ten years, but we have nothing left in hand though we did get use of the iAOR for ten years at no extra operating costs; or 1,110 Million $ and we get the use and operation for ten years and a 17 year old ship at the end of that period.
 
 

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1873 on: February 21, 2018, 17:37:04 »

Based on my experiences, I'd trust Davie's words over ISI's lies in a heartbeat.   :waiting:

The Commodore is the force employer though, so when it comes to deciding what operational environment the iAOR will be employed in, he's got an inside scoop over the rest of us.


I will note that looking back at history, the HMCS Terra Nova finished her career with the RCN fitted for, but not with CIWS as well....so....yeah, there's that.


The nice thing about the Phalanx/CIWS is that it requires no through-deck penetrations for setup/install.  All you need is a deck area that's large enough/strong enough to hold its weight and to distribute the recoil (not much from a 20mm) and a spot somewhere on the ship that you can run cables to and setup the Operator's Console(s). 


(OK, there's more to it than that, but Terra Nova's CIWS was installed and running in 10 days...)


NS

I wasn't talking about ISI but I know for a fact some of what Davie is saying is let us say "embellished truth". I hear enough rumblings about Asterix that i'm sure you do as well. End of the day the Commodore is stating the obvious. Davie needs to get over the fact that we are not needing anymore tankers from them.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Offline Halifax Tar

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #1874 on: February 21, 2018, 17:45:50 »
I wasn't talking about ISI but I know for a fact some of what Davie is saying is let us say "embellished truth". I hear enough rumblings about Asterix that i'm sure you do as well. End of the day the Commodore is stating the obvious. Davie needs to get over the fact that we are not needing anymore tankers from them.

Chief,

If you are referring to the aforementioned quotes I would tend to disagree.  The Asterix CAN do all of those things, but WILL it ?  That is another matter.  My pickup can haul over 13000lbs, but it never will as I wouldn't dream of straining the engine, drive train and breaking systems to the max on my 60K truck.  It can do over 200 KMH but it never will, so long as I drive it.

I haven't head any negative statements/rumblings yet about the ship.  You could PM me if you would like. 

Having said that I am in full support another tanker from Davie.  But as long as this government is in power it will never happen.
Lead me, follow me or get the hell out of my way