Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 868674 times)

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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2175 on: February 05, 2019, 20:00:53 »
In the end, it's probably good for everybody that they moved the timeline up, even though it's a posterity move rather than common sense. Federal and Davie can move on to the next skirmish, the RCN might get a new ship and the poli's get to feel smug and clever.  ::)  As for Asterix, I hope they won't be cutting her loose until there are two JSS floating and working, which is probably still more than 5 years away for both, regardless of what the PR machine spits out.  When the JSS is in the water, and functioning, then that will be the day to acknowledge they did something useful in spite of themselves.
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Online MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2176 on: February 05, 2019, 20:43:29 »
CCG's shipbuilding needs are not related to the RCN's; it's a great pity that civilian and naval requirements were bundled together by the Conservatives in the, ha, ha, "National Shipbuilding Strategy". 

It's almost as if the government's civilian and military aviation fleets were all procured under one over-arching "strategy" to build everything in Canada. With most of the necessary industrial plant having to be built first (Bell helicopters aside, boy they get a lot of sole-sourcing for CCG and RCAF with almost no political/media attention/controversy--wonder why).

Shudder. Gasp. Help. Madness. Quel désastre.

Mark
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« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 20:57:24 by MarkOttawa »
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2177 on: February 05, 2019, 22:18:21 »
isn't it better to build all of one type before moving on to another?
Yes, this is how it is usually done in countries that have a clue about how to nurture a shipbuilding industry.  We, however, are now paying the heavy price for the gross incompetence of previous governments.  Please note that I am not suggesting that the present government is competent.

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2178 on: February 06, 2019, 01:15:44 »
They are completing the 3 OFSV's now, something is wrong with the SV design I suspect, so this gives them a chance to get it sorted. Davie could be given a contract to replace the 1100 class bouy tenders and Seaspan the other larger breakers.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2179 on: February 06, 2019, 07:07:09 »
They are completing the 3 OFSV's now, something is wrong with the SV design I suspect, so this gives them a chance to get it sorted. Davie could be given a contract to replace the 1100 class bouy tenders and Seaspan the other larger breakers.

That was the hidden message nicely hidden in the press release. This change in order of production has nothing to do with trying to satisfy urgent needs of the Navy. It has everything to do with keeping the yard busy while the Coast Guard sorts itself out on the Science vessel.

Colin is probably right that there is something wrong with the design of the OSV. However, I am not as nice as he is and I believe that the design problem is not from a "architectural" point of view but rather because the Coast Guard brass, after all these years of lead time, still haven't been able to decide for itself what it wants the vessel to be able to do. It's gross "brass" incompetence or bureaucratic anarchy in the team putting the reqs together that is slowing the process - and no-one with the balls to drive the damn process forward.

I could be wrong, but Coast Guard brass has never impressed me - seagoing personnel, yes, but their shore side brass? No!
 

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2180 on: February 06, 2019, 07:55:35 »
If we are talking about 'some Brass having balls', then why not talk about giving Davie the building of the Def......As it stand now, that boat won't touch seawater until close to 2037-38 as it stands now. 

This is borderline criminal - or - normal for a 3rd world country.

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2181 on: February 06, 2019, 08:59:57 »
Somebody obviously hasn't updated the Wikipedia page on The Def in years....

"CCGS John G. Diefenbaker[note 1] is the name for a Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker that is expected to join the fleet in 2021–2022. She was initially expected to be in service by 2017.

In May 2013 the Vancouver Sun reported that the Harper government acknowledged that both John G. Diefenbaker and the Royal Canadian Navy's new Joint Support Ships faced a scheduling conflict.[16] According to the Vancouver Sun, because both vessels were scheduled to be built in the same facility, the Harper government would have to choose which project had priority, and went first. The Canadian American Strategic Review argued that John G. Diefenbaker better served protecting Canadian sovereignty than the Joint Support Ships, and should therefore get built first.[17] However, on 11 October 2013 the NSPS Secretariat announced that the Joint Support Ships would be built first, followed by John G. Diefenbaker. This means that the new polar icebreaker was delayed and the Canadian Coast Guard will have to start necessary measures to keep Louis S. St-Laurent in service until 2021–2022.[3][18]"



Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2182 on: February 06, 2019, 09:47:10 »
That was the hidden message nicely hidden in the press release. This change in order of production has nothing to do with trying to satisfy urgent needs of the Navy. It has everything to do with keeping the yard busy while the Coast Guard sorts itself out on the Science vessel.

Colin is probably right that there is something wrong with the design of the OSV. However, I am not as nice as he is and I believe that the design problem is not from a "architectural" point of view but rather because the Coast Guard brass, after all these years of lead time, still haven't been able to decide for itself what it wants the vessel to be able to do. It's gross "brass" incompetence or bureaucratic anarchy in the team putting the reqs together that is slowing the process - and no-one with the balls to drive the damn process forward.

I could be wrong, but Coast Guard brass has never impressed me - seagoing personnel, yes, but their shore side brass? No!

Fully in agreement, out here the brass wanted for years to close the 2 busiest SAR bases (Kits and the Hovercraft base) They got their wish on Kits which then blew up in the CPC face and cost them at least 2 seats. My guess is the OSV is badly top heavy and due to the brass wanting it to be to many things, I know Robbie Allen and he related to me his frustrations with that issue when designing the 500 class. They also want a 60 million dollar ship for 40 million and they often shorten designs leading to issues.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2183 on: February 06, 2019, 17:40:18 »
The Davie info machine keeps going....

Asterix deploys for year-long world-tour


https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/asterix-deploys-for-year-long-world-tour-822033638.html


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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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Online MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2184 on: February 06, 2019, 20:21:08 »
On build-switch between CCG's OOSV and first JSS:

Quote
New schedule will shave months off construction of navy support vessel: Shipyard

The Vancouver shipyard building the navy’s new support ships says the decision to push one of those vessels to the front of the construction queue will shave months, rather than years, off its expected delivered date.

The federal government revealed this week that Seaspan Marine will finish work on the first support ship before turning to a new oceanographic science vessel for the coast guard, which was originally slated to be built first.

Seaspan vice-president of government relations Tim Page tells The Canadian Press that design work on the coast guard ship is taking longer than expected [emphasis added--in 2009 the ship was supposed to be delivered by an un-chosen shipyard in 2012!!! https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/rpp/2009-2010/inst/dfo/st-ts08-eng.asp#OOSV CHARLIEFOXTROT] and changing the schedule will save money and time in the long run.

But anyone expecting the support ship to be delivered overnight will be disappointed as Page says the shipyard’s new schedule has it hitting the water in 2022, at which point it will still need to undergo testing at sea.

Prior to the new schedule, the Defence Department’s head of procurement said he expected the vessel to be delivered and ready for naval operations by mid-2023.

As for the coast guard’s new science ship, Page says the time gained by pushing it back in the queue will be used to perfect its design and ensure taxpayers get full value for money.
https://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/rpp/2009-2010/inst/dfo/st-ts08-eng.asp#OOSV

"In the long run"...

Mark
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Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2185 on: February 06, 2019, 20:35:07 »
Never got a clear answer for who was responsible for the design, PWGCS or the shipyard. The rumour I have heard is that the shipyard doing their checks on the design called into question it's stability, which would not surprise me at all.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2186 on: February 06, 2019, 21:08:10 »
Totally dreaming here ... but wouldn't it be nice if the ships at both ends of the fuel hose could be Canadian?


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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2187 on: February 06, 2019, 21:12:46 »
I wish to subscribe to your dreams (the ones involving grey ships only!!)

Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2188 on: February 06, 2019, 22:20:50 »
Quote
Lockheed Martin’s Ottawa-made tech tapped for navy’s joint support ships

The Vancouver-based shipbuilder tasked with providing Canada’s navy with a new fleet of support ships is turning to a defence giant’s local operations to power the brains of the vessels.

Seaspan Shipyards, the prime contractor for the Royal Canadian Navy’s next-generation joint support ships, announced at an event in Ottawa Wednesday that it will use Lockheed Martin Canada’s CMS 330 – a combat management system that controls a variety of a ship’s communications and commands – in the fleet.

The joint support ships will be used primarily in resupply missions that require transporting cargo such as fuel and ammunition. Considered the brain of the ship, CMS 330 integrates a vessel’s data collection, weapons systems and other planning functions into a single operating system.

“Whether it is enforcing sovereignty in Canada’s waters, operating in an international threat environment or engaging in humanitarian or disaster relief, CMS 330 will allow crews to counter threats faster and more efficiently, where and when necessary,” said Lockheed Martin Canada Rotary and Mission Systems vice-president and general manager Gary Fudge in a statement.

Lockheed Martin’s local operations in Kanata are the primary developers of the CMS, which is also used on Canada’s Arctic-Offshore Patrol Ships and HALIFAX class frigates. Foreign navies such as New Zealand’s and Chile’s have also made use of CMS 330 in their fleets.

Should Lockheed Martin’s group move forward as the ship designer for the federal government’s next-generation surface combatants, CMS 330 will also be used in those warships. A federal trade tribunal threw out a complaint earlier this month that called for the government to rescind the Lockheed Martin-led group’s status as the preferred proponent in the procurement process, citing missing requirements in the bidder’s proposed design.
https://obj.ca/article/lockheed-martins-ottawa-made-tech-tapped-navys-joint-support-ships

Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2189 on: February 08, 2019, 06:26:27 »
Quote
RCN’s new Joint Support Ships to be outfitted with Lockheed Martin Canada’s CMS 330

In June 2018, construction began on Canada’s first Joint Support Ship (JSS) for the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN). The JSS contract is part of the non-combat package of the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS ), which was awarded to Seaspan Shipyards in 2011, for building four different types of large vessels for the RCN and Canadian Coast Guard.

Through the JSS project, Seaspan will deliver two ships to the RCN under the Protecteur-class. “Once completed, the JSS will be the largest ships ever built on Canada’s West Coast,” said Mark Lamarre, Chief Executive Officer, Seaspan Shipyards at a news briefing. He explained that these 173-metre length ships will support the RCN’s work at home and abroad for both defence and humanitarian missions.

Through its work under the NSS, Seaspan has awarded over $850 million in contracts to about 540 Canadian companies to meet its commitments under this program. As part of its obligations under the JSS project, Seaspan announced yesterday, the award of a $118 million contract to Lockheed Martin Canada to provide the Command Management System for the new JSS. This system is based on Lockheed Martin’s CMS 330, which will integrate the JSS weapons, data, sensors and other equipment into a single operating system. The CMS 330 was designed and developed in collaboration with the RCN and optimized for Canadian Doctrine and Operating Procedures.

Gary Fudge, Vice President and General Manager of Lockheed Martin Canada Rotary and Mission Systems said that the Canadian-developed CMS 330 is now on five classes of ships across three different navies and can be considered as six classes if the future Canadian Surface Combatant, for which they are the preferred bidder, is included.

The CMS 330 performs four key functions: Situational Awareness – the collection of information about the surrounding environment through radars and sensors; Intelligence – converting data into actionable intelligence; Planning – presents the information in an intuitive format so the commander and crew can quickly develop a plan; and Command and Control – directs ship systems to engage and respond to incoming threats.

“Whether it is enforcing sovereignty in Canada’s waters, operating in an international threat environment, or engaging in humanitarian or disaster relief, CMS 330 will allow crews to counter threats faster and more efficiently, where and when necessary,” said Fudge.

Apart from the CMS 330, Lockheed Martin will engage suppliers to deliver an Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system. This system, according to the news release, will be “designed to detect electromagnetic signals, a surveillance radar system, an Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system, an Electro-Optical Infrared sensor, and a Tactical Data Link.”

Lockheed Martin will provide the integration for all these systems in the JSS and will design the consoles and configuration of the Operations Room. Fudge explained at a news briefing that their team on the West Coast will work with Seaspan on the installation and during the test and trial phase at sea to ensure the system is operating successfully.

Capt James Salt, Director Naval Major Crown Projects at DND, who was also at the briefing, said that this contract will provide the RCN with a customized command suite to help enable their purpose to have military vessels to operate in any theatre including high threat environments. He explained that the JSS will be critical to the RCN and will do so much more than merely increasing the range and endurance of a naval task group. Its “contributions will go well beyond what a typical AOR (auxiliary oiler replenishment) might be expected to accomplish” which is why it is necessary to have such “a robust Command Management System.”

This announcement is another significant milestone in the NSS program to equip the RCN with modern vessels to meet its local and international obligations. “The future is bright for Canada’s marine sector and today’s announcement is just the latest example that the NSS is working,” said Lamarre.
https://vanguardcanada.com/2019/02/07/rcns-new-joint-support-ships-to-be-outfitted-with-lockheed-martin-canadas-cms-330/

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2190 on: February 18, 2019, 13:17:44 »
SSS has updated their site, here is the current state of the first JSS, looks like the first turn of the bilge is started. https://nss.seaspan.com/project/joint-support-ship/

Offline Jimbolio

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2191 on: March 01, 2019, 12:01:41 »
SSS has updated their site, here is the current state of the first JSS, looks like the first turn of the bilge is started. https://nss.seaspan.com/project/joint-support-ship/

The renderings on the Seaspan site differ from those on the forces site (which themselves differ from each other), which all differ from photos of FGS Bonn.  Any idea if the Seaspan renderings are the most up-to-date?  How closely might they resemble the final ship?  You'd think with construction started, they'd have a good idea, but many projects get late design changes.

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2192 on: March 01, 2019, 14:34:32 »
The PR department might just use whatever they can grab.

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2193 on: March 02, 2019, 00:59:47 »
Totally dreaming here ... but wouldn't it be nice if the ships at both ends of the fuel hose could be Canadian?

They will be... in 2045 when the RAN sells the rusting hull to us. Not to forget the $500M we spend to adapt it to Canadian standards. Irving will want a new ship to work on now that its got nothing to do after the NSPS is 'finished'.

RAN will sell it as they've recently commissioned their Light Space Carrier, packed with X-wings, making the Canberra useless. We will then sail the ship without any helicopters as the project to buy new ones specially for the LHD is still 2 years behind.

Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2194 on: March 02, 2019, 07:26:35 »
They will be... in 2045 when the RAN sells the rusting hull to us. Not to forget the $500M we spend to adapt it to Canadian standards. Irving will want a new ship to work on now that its got nothing to do after the NSPS is 'finished'.
Close-out for the surface combatants is late 2040s.  So Irving will probably still be building at least one surface combatant in 2045.  The National Shipbuilding Strategy was established to eliminate the boom-and-bust cycles.  So the National Shipbuilding Strategy never finishes.  My hope is that when steel is first cut on the fifteenth surface combatant, the design for a new class of at least twenty new surface combatants is ready.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2195 on: March 02, 2019, 14:51:18 »
Close-out for the surface combatants is late 2040s.  So Irving will probably still be building at least one surface combatant in 2045.  The National Shipbuilding Strategy was established to eliminate the boom-and-bust cycles.  So the National Shipbuilding Strategy never finishes.  My hope is that when steel is first cut on the fifteenth surface combatant, the design for a new class of at least twenty new surface combatants is ready.


Exactly! The NSPS is not about ships, it is about shipyards and jobs and capacity and so on ...

I share your hope dream.
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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2196 on: March 02, 2019, 23:11:59 »
That was the hidden message nicely hidden in the press release. This change in order of production has nothing to do with trying to satisfy urgent needs of the Navy. It has everything to do with keeping the yard busy while the Coast Guard sorts itself out on the Science vessel.

Colin is probably right that there is something wrong with the design of the OSV. However, I am not as nice as he is and I believe that the design problem is not from a "architectural" point of view but rather because the Coast Guard brass, after all these years of lead time, still haven't been able to decide for itself what it wants the vessel to be able to do. It's gross "brass" incompetence or bureaucratic anarchy in the team putting the reqs together that is slowing the process - and no-one with the balls to drive the damn process forward.

I could be wrong, but Coast Guard brass has never impressed me - seagoing personnel, yes, but their shore side brass? No!

Had to be polite, till today. I am fully in agreement with your assessment OGBD. They are incredibly bad at their job. Part of the problem is the fleet boots useless turds off the ship into the office, those turds float to the top using the only skill they are good at, then they are making decisions about the future of the fleet. Throw on top senior managers who know nothing about ships or the work the CCG does, PWGS that effs up most of what it touches and politicians that don't care.
Funny just talking about one particular effed up procurement, the 47' Lifeboats, as I recall SNC Lavilan won the contract and subbed it out to a company in Kingston that had never built a proper boat before (as told to me by the manager on the site), the first boat was so bad (despite being a USCG design) that they yanked the contract and gave it to Nanaimo Shipyards. Then there was the CG Commissioner that was caught in the park flashing people and hustled out to the West Coast to avoid embarrassment....   

Offline JMCanada

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2197 on: March 07, 2019, 14:50:45 »
There are rumours in Spain about building a third AOR after the two being built for the RAN  (Australia). Then they might be already trying to sell Patiño, which is already known to RCN. A good chance for Davie to canadize it (a candidate for Obelix), should the government agree to the 2+2 JSS idea.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 15:15:43 by JMCanada »

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2198 on: March 07, 2019, 15:19:55 »
There are rumours in Spain about building a third AOR after the two being built for the RAN  (Australia). Then they might be already trying to sell Patiño, which is already known to RCN. A good chance for Davie to canadize it (a candidate for Obelix), should the government agree to the 2+2 JSS idea.

What’s with all this craziness with four RAS rigs?

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2199 on: March 07, 2019, 19:27:06 »
2 per coast, which means that one is always available on each coast and if one goes overseas, there is still another to cover domestic requirements.