Author Topic: First Aid / CPR training and certification  (Read 106378 times)

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Offline Rider Pride

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2008, 16:53:33 »
FA and FAI isn't really of interest to medical persons anymore. In fact there hasn't really been any sort of interest amongst the army supporting side of the medical branch for years. The only ones I hear doing anything to do with FAI is Fd Hosp and some of the air force bases.
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Offline Breacher41

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2008, 16:58:19 »
AH!!!! Gotcha!!!!

Okie dokie here I go.

I taught for the CF and I teach for the Red Cross.

I will give you an honest unbiased opinion of how both the SJA courses and hor CRC courses are run.

When I first did my CF FAI I thought it was overly regimented, extremely stiff and relatively boring. The way the courses are structured you don't have much wiggle room either way, to teach things as you see fit as long as you meet all the training standards. The old cheesey SJA films didn't help either. If we were going to teach a MSFA course we should have material ie AV that's Milcentric. I know that the MSFA was a bastardized version of the SJA SFA with added Mil components, and I, honestly ever since taking the CF FAI course have become repulsed by the material offered and the techniques taught.

Now, when I became a CRC FAI I enjoyed the process that much more. The entire course was not at all about testing your first-aid knowledge like the SJA version was, but more about developing and understanding teaching as a whole. I honestly believe that the way we teach some of the things in the CF is seriously flawed. It doesn't leave much room for improve and or allow the insertion of many personal experience.

Anyways, when I teach a CRC course whether it be SFA, EFA, MFA, AED or whatever I can always laugh and joke and insert experiences and stories where as when I teach a CF SFA course it's rigid, I am the instructor and you are the student. You listen I teach. You answer when I ask. I find that to be an extremely poor method of teaching first-aid and the whole concept of the SFA taught by SJA is just... well weird.

I seriously believe that the CF would be way better off going with CRC's teaching. Instead of the AMFR we should switch to the EMR which CRC is the national standard and provider for, well with the exception of BC because we're weird. AMFR can't get you a job on a rig in the majority of the provinces. AMFR isn't recognized out side of the CF and SJA. When you go into a health care setting more people would know what level you are and where you placed on the scheme of things when you're a certification and license that is accredited by the Paramedic Association of Canada. The AMFR is not accredited or recognized by again any official body other then the CF or SJA.

Not to mention the CRC would recognise your SJA training... well grudgingly give you a shot at their Instructor courses, but the reverse would never be. Why is that? I don't know. Maybe because SJA believes that they are the best in the world. They lack accountability, any sort of oversight by a recognized medical body, please don't say SJA can regulate itself because it clearly can't from the people I've worked with. Their own developed standards and training has no place in the real world, and frankly is hard to work with even if they did come to help you.

I had a troop who's an ACP when I was with the Fd Amb and his wife was a teacher. Her co-worker said to her one day "What does your husband do?" She said "My husband's a paramedic with BCAS" and her co-worker says "Oh! Wow, my husband's a paramedic too! But I don't know what BCAS is" and the troop's wife looked at her strangely and said "so... where's your husband working then?" co-worker replied "Oh! He's with St John's Ambulance!"

When we heard this, we had a good laugh... a really good laugh. Then we became serious and though "wow... just... wow"

I've had many horror stories some of my own, and some from others. One thing that really amazed me was that when the Queen visited Ottawa a few years back, the SJA was there to provide med coverage. With one fake ambulance and a few fanny packs.... and I've worked plenty of large events along side SJA and it has been unanimously decreed that SJA will not be doing most if not all the events that I've been a part of.

Anyways... sorry for the long winded blurb. I don't think the CF should be with SJA anymore. If they want real professional level courses, they should go with EMR and PCP like we've started already with the Med Tech QL3. No more fly by night and no accreditation.
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Offline kratz

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2008, 17:33:15 »
I am not stuck with CRC or SJA. I really only want to provide what students can use in real life. In Nova Scotia if an AMFR is wearing the provincially issued tag on scene, at least prehospital medical pers know that person has a minimum level  to admin O2, handle spinal issues or work with an AED.

I have access to FAI materials for SJA and CRC. Given a choice , I don't care which one I could instruct to members. In my mind, what I do want to offer is  a FA program meet their needs and that they are willing to use more often than not.

When I was in school I never liked the learning method of "do this becasue it must be done". As a FAIT, I work with the idea of this is how it needs to be done and if you ask, here is the extra info.
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Offline Breacher41

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2008, 18:08:32 »
When I was in school I never liked the learning method of "do this becasue it must be done". As a FAIT, I work with the idea of this is how it needs to be done and if you ask, here is the extra info.

BINGO! I think that's the most important part. People want to know WHY things are done vice DO IT because it's done. The whole cahnge that ILCOR brought about was in many ways brilliant! Away with the old mystical ways of things and in comes the science proven methods.

I only go with CRC right now because it's got all the right check marks with many if all the right agencies, and that the certs are recognized. 
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Offline medicineman

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2008, 18:09:10 »
I for one, as a FAIT/AMFRIT/EMRIT, have heard numerous times from people I've taught over the years (and I've mentioned to the powers that be as well) that there are bad optics for people not being active workers in the emergency services field teaching some these courses.  Let's look at SJA - you can do your standard first aid one day, and a few weeks later be loaded on an ICP course.  You may have no real world experience other than doing your course previously, but now are able to teach it based solely on the precept that you've passed the ICP.  I've seen some CF units (that will remain nameless - for now) that have gone so far as to load people that are literally a week old instructors on the FAIT course, despite having normally to be an instructor for at least a year.  BTW, these weren't medics either.  This simply doesn't look good.  So, when people ask legitimite questions in class that the instructor cannot answer other than by "That's done this way because that's what the book tells you" doesn't lend alot of credibilty to you as the instructor, the material, the organization or the most important thing - the student's thought of "WTF am I doing here anyway?".  Let's also not forget silly things like answering outside their scope of knowledge or training - and example that's a personal favorite was an IT who was going around telling people that the ASA we were supposed to administer to people having unstable chest pain was as a pain reliever, not as a platelet de-clumper.

Personally, I'm a little biased due to my long association with SJA and some really bad experiences with the CRC.  However, I used to make some extra money by teaching for a firm that you could only work for if you had real field experience.  The text book we used was thin and dumbed down and how it was presented to the students was up to the instructor (within some guidelines).  I think what we should do is take the best of all the worlds, sit down with the First Aid gurus within the CF as a working group, and devise a series of military first aid courses with our own CF stamp on them, with a building block approach to course make up and presentation, each with increasing responsibilities/scopes and more importantly, work/enviromentally oriented.  Not everybody needs TCCC or AMFR/EMR, but some do depending on where they work or what their civilian equivalency requires and everyone needs to know how to deal with not only combat injuries but the day to day stuff that you run into in the field, in a hangar or on ship.  If you get it so it's easy to remember, job related and dare I say fun/interesting, people will take the training more seriously and get more from it.

Lastly, we have to train instructors that are both knowlegeable AND experienced - and not just experienced in the field they are teaching, but in the field of teaching.  Just because you know it doesn't mean you can get your point across.  I too have seen places (both mil and civvy) that have written people off as instructors simply because they are in the field - they couldn't teach someone to (literally) save their own lives, much less a member of the public, but hey, they're a paramedic or a nurse, so they must be able to do it.  Not everyone is meant to be an educator, so let's limit the pool to those that not only can do but can teach as well.

There's my $1.00 worth with 98% tax applied, for what it may be worth.

Cheers.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Breacher41

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2008, 18:12:35 »
Personally, I'm a little biased due to my long association with SJA and some really bad experiences with the CRC.

Everyone has biases towards one or the other :D At least now we'll get to hear both the good and the bad from each side of the coin  ;D
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Offline medicineman

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2008, 18:21:30 »
By far the best go I had was working for a different company - the pay was good, I was treated with respect, very little petty politics involved and I had the leeway to teach stuff the way I thought it should be instead of the "Stay within this lesson plan only" way of doing things that SJA and to some extent, CRC use.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline kratz

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2008, 18:46:44 »
Everyone has biases towards one or the other :D At least now we'll get to hear both the good and the bad from each side of the coin  ;D

For FAI and FAITs, we know the most of the pros and cons of CRC and SJA. Though those can be discussed here as well. I was aiming to share the good, bad and ugly of offering courses under the current program.

In Halifax, I could offer free EFA/CPC courses with base support through the MFRC. Now that we have moved to Borden, the work and pulling of teeth in comparison to offer the same course is stunning. Not to mention that nearly half the "students" are from a civilian contractor here.

I offered to instruct with the council in Barrie, provided a letter from Halifax. The local FAIT was introduced to me, and physically shyed away from me when she heard I was a FAIT from the East Coast.
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2008, 19:30:38 »
By far the best go I had was working for a different company - the pay was good, I was treated with respect, very little petty politics involved and I had the leeway to teach stuff the way I thought it should be instead of the "Stay within this lesson plan only" way of doing things that SJA and to some extent, CRC use.

MM

Well to be fair SJA/CRC are national organizations, hence the "stay within the lesson plan" mentality, as it ensures that there is some consistency in every course, regardless of where it it taught.  But having volunteered with SJA for few years, I took/assisted on a few courses, and some of the instructors I worked with were able to insert thier own experiences, and deviate slightly from the offical lesson plan.

Offline medicineman

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2008, 20:20:43 »
I had to really watch that when I was being recertified in Kingston, as the IT couldn't think outside that box.  That's the case in a number of places unfortunately.

Back on topic, thinking outside the box seems to be what gets alot student satisfaction, be it from change of scenery or actually being able to do something different/applicable.  Also, using a problem based approach seems to be useful as well - teach the general considerations, then give each person a problem with/without tools and let them solve it.  It's fun and more real life and helps with time management, as all can get involved at the same time doing something.  It's how we ran our UNMO courses in Kingston, and worked out well.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline kratz

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2008, 20:30:12 »
I observed the CRC cert of the Master Trainers on the East coast, back in 2005. I liked the hands on focus more than the theory. The drawback that I noticed, was that the person doing the qual was hung up on the terms and did not allow SJA terms/name to be mentioned at anytime during training. It was nearly as P/F point in the course.
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Offline Breacher41

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2008, 20:34:34 »
kratz that's the thing about CRC. We think that if you're going to teach for us, you better teach with our terminology and our material. It's okay to substitute interesting facts into the course itself but you had better be using the correct terminology and wording when you're teaching the actual material. Do I agree with that? Sure, and not so much.

I think it's important to know the material that you're teaching and not get it mixed up with someone else's stuff. After all you're teaching a CRC course, and that should be what the students receive.
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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2008, 22:54:46 »
True - if you teach for a certain organization and they have certain buzz words or acronyms that are in their common use, don't use someone else's because it will just create chaos with the students who actually study from their manuals.

Who wants to set up an Army.ca First Aid working group, hash out some little CTP's and then toss it up the chain and see what happens?

MM
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 02:15:59 by medicineman »
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline Breacher41

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2008, 23:01:44 »
If you chair it, I'll play.
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Offline MedTech32

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Re: First AId Training and Standards
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2008, 10:23:02 »
While I'm not an instructor, I have had the "Benefit" of having both CRC, SJA, and army's version of SJA.  Both my parents were Civie Medics and I've been back from BC for just under a year.  So I've had bit of everything.  I've also had to use my FA training quite a few times before I saw the light and became a Med Tech.

Personally, I liked the way it was taught oh about 15 years ago or so.  I remember being taught real world skills, like how to actually bandage different types of wounds and how to wrap an ankle or a knee, or even the basics of basics, the trusted sling.  I've had to recert my FA skills over the years and noticed a decline in actually teaching these vital tools of trade.  Instead I've found, at least here in Ontario, that the instructors focus more on CPR than anything else.

A few years ago I asked my FAI why was this, and his response was "We don't teach that stuff anymore, because it won't be used and doesn't save lives",  I was like what the.....???.  But I had to go along with it cause it was a company sponsored CRC course.  Needless to say I spent 5 yrs there and never did I do CPR, but I sure used the band aids and bandages alot.

Same with the military version, I remember being told before hand to go in and shut up, just do what your told and don't argue.  Needless to say it was very very hard to do.  Especially for my friends who were all civie PCP's.

I think a return to teaching the basics is essential, focus on teaching how to apply band aids and bandages and rendering aid.  Not just CPR.  Sure being in cardiac arrest will kill you, but so will shock or bleeding out.
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Offline DaWickerMan

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First Aid Certificate?
« Reply #65 on: October 03, 2008, 14:32:46 »
Hi there, I didn't know where else to ask this question, hopefully someone can help.

I just finished my contract for the CF and opted to become a civi (I know, I know... geez!).

I'm still quite young and recently decided to become a police officer.  One of the requirements is a First Aid certificate.

Now I completed 1st aid training in BMQ, and was wondering if we ever get a certificate for that, or does our course report count as a valid 1st aid certificate? (<-- I guess that's a question more for the employer).


Thank you and cheers!

Offline kratz

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Re: First Aid Certificate?
« Reply #66 on: October 03, 2008, 14:42:18 »
First Aid training is only valid for three years. If you have completed your BE, then your certification is most likely expired and you will need to take the course again. I have spoken with the FAIT at the CFLRS Borden Det and they do not normally request certificates for their recruits. 
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Offline dangerboy

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Re: First Aid Certificate?
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2008, 14:47:28 »
Most units have a first aid coordinator and they can request a certificate.  Our unit does that for guys that are releasing or for any reserves  that did it with the unit ie for a tour.  As Kratz said they don't issue them out to everyone and in your case it probably has expires, just giving the info out in case anyone else is interested.
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Offline medicineman

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Re: First Aid Certificate?
« Reply #68 on: October 04, 2008, 13:18:20 »
The other thing that I used to do when I was teaching alot (and when it was a problem to get the certificates) was I'd write a letter affirming the course number, date and level on either DND or my personal letterhead for the student.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline 211RadOp

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Re: First Aid Certificate?
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2008, 16:26:29 »
As an SOP, whenever I taught an MSFA crse, I always asked the Unit Coordinator for certificates. Now that I am in a new unit, I have yet to find out who the coord is. If your course is still current, you may be able to get a certificate, if you can come up with the name of your FAI and the date you did the course. Without this basic information, DND Special Centers will not even take the time to look up the information as they get thousands of course reports a year.
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Offline Nomad933

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Re: First Aid Certificate?
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2008, 18:25:17 »
In theory, all SJA courses including those done for special centers, should be entered into the SJA Unity system. One thing you could also try is to go to the local SJA office and see if they can do a reprint of the certificate.

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Re: First Aid Certificate?
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2008, 11:18:06 »
Pm me you name and ill give you my email and i can tell you if your expired or not.

Offline Nauticus

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Re: Military First Aid Training
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2009, 01:22:11 »
From my experience, everybody had to do everything at BMQ.
"Fate guides who will; who won't, it drags."

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Question regarding cost of St. John Ambulance First Aid Training
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2009, 21:20:17 »
Okay guys, I'm wondering how much the Standard and Emergency First Aid costs at St. John Ambulance.


Anyone know? I couldn't find it on their site, but I'm the kind of person who could be looking at it, and not see it ;)
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Re: Question regarding cost of St. John Ambulance First Aid Training
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2009, 21:28:23 »
I took the Standard course about a year and a half ago. I'm digging into my memory here, but I'm pretty certain that I recall someone telling me that if we weren't in cadets we would have needed to pay anywheres from $70 to $100 for the course.
 Not sure what the prices would be out your way though, but this might give you a ballpark figure.

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