Author Topic: CEF Tartans  (Read 14829 times)

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CEF Tartans
« on: September 24, 2002, 08:22:00 »
Posted by m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:59:13 -0400
While John and Ian are diligently debating the puttee issue off the
List, I have decided to toss out the next trivia challenge.
Question Number 2 - What were the Tartan patterns for the CEF battalions
that had VC winners with Scottish/highland connections?
While the photographic references display an almost random distribution
of kilts and trousers and occasionally trews for officers for these
soldiers, the former being with or without kilt aprons, I have yet to
find a definitive resource which matched kilt patterns by name to the
various CEF battalions. The best connection will be to confirm the
tartan patterns for the perpetuating Reserve battalions.
The battalions I need to confirm this information for area:
  13 Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
  16th Bn CEF, The Canadian Scottish -->
  42nd Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
  43rd Bn CEF Cameron Highlanders -->
There were, of course, other battalions of the CEF with
Scottish/highlander heritage, but these four have VC winners and that
makes them subjects of my current research.
Ideally, I need the clan name for the tartan patterns. The online
resources for tartans sort them all by clan name and I can‘t search for
it by the battalion name.
Thanks for any help or advice.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
While John and Ian are diligently
debating the
puttee issue off the List, I have decided to toss out the next trivia
challenge.
Question Number 2 - What were the
Tartan patterns
for the CEF battalions that had VC winners with Scottish/highland
connections?
While the photographic references
display an almost
random distribution of kilts and trousers and occasionally trews for
officers
for these soldiers, the former being with or without kilt aprons, I have
yet to
find a definitive resource which matched kilt patterns by name to the
various
CEF battalions. The best connection willbe to confirm the tartan
patterns
for the perpetuating Reserve battalions.
The battalions I need to confirm this
information
for area:
  13 Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of
Canada --gt
  Black Watch tartan
 
  16th Bn CEF, The Canadian Scottish
--gt
 
 
  42nd Bn CEF,Royal Highlanders
of Canada
  --gt Black Watch tartan
 
  43rd Bn CEF Cameron Highlanders
  --gt
There were, of
course, other battalions of the CEF with Scottish/highlander heritage,
but these
four have VC winners and that makes them subjects of my current
research.
Ideally, I need the clan name for the
tartan
patterns. The online resources for tartans sort them all by clan name
and I
can‘t search for it by the battalion name.
Thanks for any help or
advice.
Mike
The
Regimental Rogue
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Re: CEF Tartans
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2002, 08:23:00 »
Posted by Juno847627709@aol.com on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:00:32 EDT
I know you‘re aware of this, but EK Scot also has a VC winner...
MacGregor tartan I believe.
Major Harris?
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Re: CEF Tartans
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2002, 08:23:00 »
Posted by m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:21:38 -0400
"1 March 1945 - VC won by Maj Frederick Albert Tilston, The Essex Scottish
Regiment, The Hochwald, Germany."
Thanks, but as a Second World War VC, Major Tilston would have worn battle
dress, not a kilt. We‘re doing our best to match operational dress where we
have sufficient articles.
I could use a decent scan of the WWII cloth shoulder titles for the Essex
Scottish if anyone has a some.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: CEF Tartans
> I know you‘re aware of this, but EK Scot also has a VC winner...
> MacGregor tartan I believe.
> Major Harris?
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Re: CEF Tartans
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2002, 08:23:00 »
Posted by "John Gow" <jgow@home.com> on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:37:37 -0400
Okat, realistic reply 1 or whatever...
Come to Sgt Hughie Cairns of Saskatoon, won his VC in the last ten days
of the war after the Germans foolishly killed his brother, and Hugh, in
the image of today‘s Eastwood said "that‘s going to cost you.." its all
in the commemorative eulogy, I‘m not making it up
So anyway, the 105th Fusiliers which perpetuated the SLI MG, and,
eventually the NSASKR, the PA and Battlefords Volunteers etc etc, were
entitled, by means of "saving" another unit in action, the Seaforth
Tartan.  Believe the action to have been in WWI, so it would easily
cover Hughie of the day of his incredible bravery and action this is
what VC‘s were created for!...believe Sgt  Cairns also had a DCM ...as
cheap as the system gets in handing out nickle or silver plate to the
troops, you can understand that he was either incredible, or one of the
ones that goes "mental"...or both...
Will get to work on the rest of the lot...
Of course it would be easier if you pecked out the names that you still
questioned, beyond these three...because Highland Regiments in Canada
were not alone in winning VC‘s...
Maybe that‘s part three of the quiz...
John
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mike Oleary
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:59 PM
  Subject: CEF Tartans
  While John and Ian are diligently debating the puttee issue off the
List, I have decided to toss out the next trivia challenge.
  Question Number 2 - What were the Tartan patterns for the CEF
battalions that had VC winners with Scottish/highland connections?
  While the photographic references display an almost random
distribution of kilts and trousers and occasionally trews for officers
for these soldiers, the former being with or without kilt aprons, I have
yet to find a definitive resource which matched kilt patterns by name
to the various CEF battalions. The best connection will be to confirm
the tartan patterns for the perpetuating Reserve battalions.
  The battalions I need to confirm this information for area:
    13 Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
    16th Bn CEF, The Canadian Scottish -->
    42nd Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
    43rd Bn CEF Cameron Highlanders -->
  There were, of course, other battalions of the CEF with
Scottish/highlander heritage, but these four have VC winners and that
makes them subjects of my current research.
  Ideally, I need the clan name for the tartan patterns. The online
resources for tartans sort them all by clan name and I can‘t search for
it by the battalion name.
  Thanks for any help or advice.
  Mike
  The Regimental Rogue
Okat, realistic reply 1 or
whatever...
Come to Sgt Hughie Cairns of Saskatoon,
won his VC
in the last ten days of the war after the Germans foolishly killed his
brother,
and Hugh, in the image of today‘s Eastwood said "that‘s going to cost
you.."
its all in the commemorative eulogy, I‘m not making it up
So anyway, the 105th Fusiliers which
perpetuated
the SLI MG, and, eventually the NSASKR, the PA and Battlefords
Volunteers etc
etc, were entitled, by means of "saving" another unit in action, the
Seaforth
Tartan. Believe the action to have been in WWI, so it would easily
cover
Hughie of the day of his incredible bravery and action this is what
VC‘s were
created for!...believe Sgt Cairns also hada DCM ...as cheap
as the
system gets in handing out nickle or silver plate to the troops, you can
understand that he was either incredible, or one of the ones that goes
"mental"...or both...
Will get to work on the rest of the
lot...
Of course it would be easier if you
pecked out the
names that you still questioned, beyondthese three...because
Highland
Regiments in Canada were not alone in winning VC‘s...
Maybe that‘s part three of the
quiz...
John
  ----- Original Message -----
  From:
  Mike
  Oleary
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001
10:59
PM
  Subject: CEF Tartans
 
  While John and Ian are diligently
debating the
  puttee issue off the List, I have decided to toss out the next trivia
  challenge.
 
  Question Number 2 - What were the
Tartan patterns
  for the CEF battalions that had VC winners with Scottish/highland
  connections?
 
  While the photographic references
display an
  almost random distribution of kilts and trousers and occasionally
trews for
  officers for these soldiers, the former being with or without kilt
aprons, I
  have yet to find a definitive resource which matched kilt patterns by
name
  to the various CEF battalions. The best connection willbe to
confirm the
  tartan patterns for the perpetuating Reserve battalions.
 
  The battalions I need to confirm this
information
  for area:
 
    13 Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of
Canada --gt
    Black Watch tartan
   
    16th Bn CEF, The Canadian
Scottish --gt
   
   
    42nd Bn CEF,Royal Highlanders
of Canada
    --gt Black Watch tartan
   
    43rd Bn CEF Cameron Highlanders
    --gt
  There were, of
  course, other battalions of the CEF with Scottish/highlander heritage,
but
  these four have VC winners and that makes them subjects of my current
  research.
 
  Ideally, I need the clan name for the
tartan
  patterns. The online resources for tartans sort them all by clan name
and I
  can‘t search for it by the battalion name.
 
  Thanks for any help or
advice.
 
  Mike
  The
  Regimental Rogue
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Re: CEF Tartans
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2002, 08:24:00 »
Posted by "T.F. Mills" <tfmills@regiments.org> on Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:49:35 -0600
On 10 Jun 01, at 22:59, Mike Oleary wrote:
> Question Number 2 - What were the Tartan patterns for the CEF battalions that
> had VC winners with Scottish/highland connections?
Charles Stewart‘s "Overseas" gives this information.  Stewart‘s work is not
always totally reliable, but this info seems OK.
>   13 Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
yes.  Pipers = Royal Stuart
>   16th Bn CEF, The Canadian Scottish -->
Each company had tartan of its parent regiment.  Upon arrival in England,
these were withdrawn, and whole battalion was outfitted in Mackenzie of No.
2 Company Seaforth Hldrs of Canada.  Pipers = red Lennox.
>   42nd Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
yes. pipers = same
>   43rd Bn CEF Cameron Highlanders -->
Cameron of Erracht pipers = same
atb,
T.F. Mills  
tfmills@regiments.org        Denver, Colorado, USA
Land Forces of Britain, the Commonwealth and Empire:
 http://www.regiments.org
British Empire/Commonwealth Forces discussion group:
 http://topica.com/lists/Emp-Comm-Forces
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Re: CEF Tartans
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2002, 08:24:00 »
Posted by m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary on Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:06:40 -0400
John, the four I listed are the ones I need confirmation on. Either that
they did wear the same tartans as the existing perpetuating regiments
and the tartan‘s name or that they in fact wore a different tartan
during the war.
Mike
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John Gow
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:37 PM
  Subject: Re: CEF Tartans
  Okat, realistic reply 1 or whatever...
 
  Come to Sgt Hughie Cairns of Saskatoon, won his VC in the last ten
days of the war after the Germans foolishly killed his brother, and
Hugh, in the image of today‘s Eastwood said "that‘s going to cost you.."
its all in the commemorative eulogy, I‘m not making it up
 
  So anyway, the 105th Fusiliers which perpetuated the SLI MG, and,
eventually the NSASKR, the PA and Battlefords Volunteers etc etc, were
entitled, by means of "saving" another unit in action, the Seaforth
Tartan.  Believe the action to have been in WWI, so it would easily
cover Hughie of the day of his incredible bravery and action this is
what VC‘s were created for!...believe Sgt  Cairns also had a DCM ...as
cheap as the system gets in handing out nickle or silver plate to the
troops, you can understand that he was either incredible, or one of the
ones that goes "mental"...or both...
 
  Will get to work on the rest of the lot...
 
  Of course it would be easier if you pecked out the names that you
still questioned, beyond these three...because Highland Regiments in
Canada were not alone in winning VC‘s...
 
  Maybe that‘s part three of the quiz...
 
  John
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Mike Oleary
    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
    Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:59 PM
    Subject: CEF Tartans
    While John and Ian are diligently debating the puttee issue off the
List, I have decided to toss out the next trivia challenge.
    Question Number 2 - What were the Tartan patterns for the CEF
battalions that had VC winners with Scottish/highland connections?
    While the photographic references display an almost random
distribution of kilts and trousers and occasionally trews for officers
for these soldiers, the former being with or without kilt aprons, I have
yet to find a definitive resource which matched kilt patterns by name
to the various CEF battalions. The best connection will be to confirm
the tartan patterns for the perpetuating Reserve battalions.
    The battalions I need to confirm this information for area:
      13 Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
      16th Bn CEF, The Canadian Scottish -->
      42nd Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of Canada --> Black Watch tartan
      43rd Bn CEF Cameron Highlanders -->
    There were, of course, other battalions of the CEF with
Scottish/highlander heritage, but these four have VC winners and that
makes them subjects of my current research.
    Ideally, I need the clan name for the tartan patterns. The online
resources for tartans sort them all by clan name and I can‘t search for
it by the battalion name.
    Thanks for any help or advice.
    Mike
    The Regimental Rogue
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
John, the four I listed are the ones I
need
confirmation on.Either that they did wear the same tartans as the
existing
perpetuating regiments and the tartan‘s name or that they in fact wore
a
different tartan during the war.
Mike
  ----- Original Message -----
  From:
  John Gow
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001
11:37
PM
  Subject: Re: CEF Tartans
 
  Okat, realistic reply 1 or
  whatever...
 
  Come to Sgt Hughie Cairns of
Saskatoon, won his
  VC in the last ten days of the war after the Germans foolishly killed
his
  brother, and Hugh, in the image of today‘s Eastwood said "that‘s going
to cost
  you.." its all in the commemorative eulogy, I‘m not making it
up
 
  So anyway, the 105th Fusiliers which
perpetuated
  the SLI MG, and, eventually the NSASKR, the PA and Battlefords
Volunteers
  etc etc, were entitled, by means of "saving" another unit in action,
the
  Seaforth Tartan. Believe the action to have been in WWI, so it
would
  easily cover Hughie of the day of his incredible bravery and action
this is
  what VC‘s were created for!...believe Sgt Cairns also
hada DCM
  ...as cheap as the system gets in handing out nickle or silver plate
to the
  troops, you can understand that he was either incredible, or one of
the ones
  that goes "mental"...or both...
 
  Will get to work on the rest of the
  lot...
 
  Of course it would be easier if you
pecked out
  the names that you still questioned, beyondthese three...because
  Highland Regiments in Canada were not alone in winning
VC‘s...
 
  Maybe that‘s part three of the
  quiz...
 
  John
 
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:
    Mike Oleary
    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
    Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001
10:59
    PM
    Subject: CEF Tartans
   
    While John and Ian are diligently
debating the
    puttee issue off the List, I have decided to toss out the next
trivia
    challenge.
   
    Question Number 2 - What were the
Tartan
    patterns for the CEF battalions that had VC winners with
Scottish/highland
    connections?
   
    While the photographic references
display an
    almost random distribution of kilts and trousers and occasionally
trews for
    officers for these soldiers, the former being with or without kilt
aprons,
    I have yet to find a definitive resource which matched kilt patterns
by
    name to the various CEF battalions. The best connection
willbe to
    confirm the tartan patterns for the perpetuating Reserve
    battalions.
   
    The battalions I need to confirm
this
    information for area:
   
      13 Bn CEF, Royal Highlanders of
Canada --gt
      Black Watch tartan
     
      16th Bn CEF, The Canadian
Scottish --gt
     
     
      42nd Bn CEF,Royal
Highlanders of Canada
      --gt Black Watch tartan
     
      43rd Bn CEF Cameron Highlanders
      --gt
    There were, of
    course, other battalions of the CEF with Scottish/highlander
heritage, but
    these four have VC winners and that makes them subjects of my
current
    research.
   
    Ideally, I need the clan name for
the tartan
    patterns. The online resources for tartans sort them all by clan
name and I
    can‘t search for it by the battalion name.
   
    Thanks for any help or
advice.
   
    Mike
    The
    Regimental
Rogue
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Re: CEF Tartans
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2002, 08:24:00 »
Posted by m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary on Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:07:34 -0400
Thank you Mr. Mills
----- Original Message -----
From: "T.F. Mills"
To:
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: CEF Tartans
>
> T.F. Mills  
> tfmills@regiments.org        Denver, Colorado, USA
> Land Forces of Britain, the Commonwealth and Empire:
>  http://www.regiments.org
> British Empire/Commonwealth Forces discussion group:
>  http://topica.com/lists/Emp-Comm-Forces
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RE: CEF Tartans
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2002, 08:24:00 »
Posted by "Todd Harris" <harris@nortelnetworks.com> on Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:41:55 -0400
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
Thanx for the promotion but alas I‘m still a lowly Captain.  Just like Mike
O‘Leary. -
But you are correct.  Major Tilston was the man.
Cheers
Todd Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: Juno847627709@aol.com [mailto:Juno847627709@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:01
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: CEF Tartans
I know you‘re aware of this, but EK Scot also has a VC winner... MacGregor
tartan I believe. Major Harris?
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RE: CEF Tartans
Thanx for the promotion but alas I‘m still a lowly Captain. Just like Mike O‘Leary. -
But you are correct. Major Tilston was the man.
Cheers
Todd Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: Juno847627709@aol.com [mailto:Juno847627709@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 10:01
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: CEF Tartans
I know you‘re aware of this, but EK Scot also has a VC winner... MacGregor tartan I believe. Major Harris?
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Re: CEF Tartans
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2002, 08:25:00 »
Posted by Juno847627709@aol.com on Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:54:46 EDT
Woops!
    Sorry, Sir.
    As you said, I doubt it was very offensive, tho‘... :-
    Take care,
                Matt
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