Author Topic: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread  (Read 634004 times)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #325 on: April 07, 2012, 16:07:37 »
The 'guys story', I hate to say, sounds a bit too far fetched for me. 
naw man, he sounded very legit and I'm damn awesome at catching people in tall tales.  Besides, I'm sure you, like myself, have seem some very crazy and stupid things in our time in the CF. Stuff that easily out does this. Off the top of my head a section commander in bosnia forcing a cpl to walk infront of an iltis to "prove" the ground off of the pavement with a radio thrown on his back for added weight.
 ::)

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As for the MOB pushups, I've done chain/Airborne pushups before, pushups on my helmet, even PT with a section of telephone pole before; all approved PT by the CofC.  Even ran 1 or 2 miles (can't remember how far it was), from "somewhere between Granville and Cornwallis" to the Obstacle Crse in FFO and gas mask on, again approved PT that everyone did.
Are you telling me that triple time drill with rucksacks is an approved form of punishment / corrective PT or it's acceptable to have recruits doing push ups with those giant MOB boxes on their backs?
That's an honest question, I was under the impression the answer to both those questions were no.
I'm leary sometimes of the justification that "the chain of command approved it". In my example above of the cpl in Bosnia- his "chain of command" approved him walking through a field.

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The last line I agree with, having witnessed something to that effect before, and been one of the Staff that brought it up to the CofC.  IMO, it is usually a young Crse Officer or newly minted MCpl that doesn't think thinks thru.
Young officers from RMC do tend to a bit over eager and gung hoe with PT but I think the fitness training/classes they do is still way more in depth and comprehensive than what a young cpl will learn on PLQ. The 1 day fitness plq mod is only mandatory for the regular force unless it's changed. You may have a 19 year old master corporal "leading" 30 or 40 students in PT.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 16:13:27 by ObedientiaZelum »
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Offline Bravo Juliet

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #326 on: April 07, 2012, 17:10:35 »
naw man, he sounded very legit and I'm damn awesome at catching people in tall tales.  Besides, I'm sure you, like myself, have seem some very crazy and stupid things in our time in the CF. Stuff that easily out does this. Off the top of my head a section commander in bosnia forcing a cpl to walk infront of an iltis to "prove" the ground off of the pavement with a radio thrown on his back for added weight.
 ::)
Are you telling me that triple time drill with rucksacks is an approved form of punishment / corrective PT or it's acceptable to have recruits doing push ups with those giant MOB boxes on their backs?
That's an honest question, I was under the impression the answer to both those questions were no.
I'm leary sometimes of the justification that "the chain of command approved it". In my example above of the cpl in Bosnia- his "chain of command" approved him walking through a field.
Young officers from RMC do tend to a bit over eager and gung hoe with PT but I think the fitness training/classes they do is still way more in depth and comprehensive than what a young cpl will learn on PLQ. The 1 day fitness plq mod is only mandatory for the regular force unless it's changed. You may have a 19 year old master corporal "leading" 30 or 40 students in PT.

When I did PLQ last year, we reservist did do 1 day PT mod.  Plus there is no reserve run PLQ anymore correct me if im wrong.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #327 on: April 07, 2012, 17:17:20 »
When I did PLQ last year, we reservist did do 1 day PT mod.  Plus there is no reserve run PLQ anymore correct me if im wrong.

All of these courses should now be a REG/PRES mix.....
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #328 on: April 07, 2012, 17:47:24 »
naw man, he sounded very legit and I'm damn awesome at catching people in tall tales.  Besides, I'm sure you, like myself, have seem some very crazy and stupid things in our time in the CF. Stuff that easily out does this. Off the top of my head a section commander in bosnia forcing a cpl to walk infront of an iltis to "prove" the ground off of the pavement with a radio thrown on his back for added weight.

Someone sounding legit to me would have to be confirmed with something more substantive.

I have seen or know of things that happened that shouldn't have, sure.  I just don't see the benefit to posting them or the details on a public forum.  People messed up/made bad decisions, if required the CofC was informed and it was dealt with.

I have also been around the CF long enough to know you don't believe every story you hear.  Examples are too numerous to name.

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::)
Are you telling me that triple time drill with rucksacks is an approved form of punishment / corrective PT

No I am saying that is part of the story I don't actually believe.  I've never HEARD of triple time drill before.  Rucksack drill, as a punishment, went out the windows YEARS ago IIRC.  I think the last time I heard of it was early '90s in Gagetown.  I know I've read the RSM Defaulters Instructions before, and it explicitedly stated what was to happen/not to happen, and that stuff fell in the latter list.  Thats not all that long ago, circa 2000 when I was Duty Sgt and had defaulters.

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or it's acceptable to have recruits doing push ups with those giant MOB boxes on their backs?

How much does the MOB weigh?  As I said, I've done stuff like situps with 3-4 other candidates with asection of telephone pole and it was part of actual PT.  I am not saying it IS a sanctioned PT thing.  I am saying if it was it wouldn't strike me as "too much".  I go to the gym and lift weights before work, so lifting a MOB is no different to me than doing bench press.  I do it for fitness and strength trg, on my own.  If some 170lb teenager can't do a pushup with 50lbs on his back...wow.

More of concern, if it is happening, and its not part of an approved PT session/plan, the CofC should be info'd about it. 

Did you witness it?  Are you sure, beyond a doubt, it happened?  Then tell your CofC.  Its the only way to ensure it stops, and that the mbr doing it is given proper instruction so as to change his/her ways.  If people are coloring outside the lines, talking about it here will not stop it from happening and start the proper corrective action the CofC would take to remedy the problem.

I won't speculate if it did/didn't happen, I just know if it is, it should be pushed up the CofC for many reasons, and if it didn't happen, anyonoe and their dog reading this thread could get the wrong impression.  How many reporters frequent this site?

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I'm leary sometimes of the justification that "the chain of command approved it".
  I can assure you, things like extra PT, extra drill, extra inspection, etc have been requested for an ACTUAL trg requirement, and approved by the CofC before, on more than one course I've taught on.  They key to it is requesting it, and only doing what is approved by the CofC.  If they answer "remedial inspection from 1900-2000hrs, you'd better be done and off that floor by 2000.

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In my example above of the cpl in Bosnia- his "chain of command" approved him walking through a field.

I'll refer to my comment earlier about being around long enough to not believe everything I hear. 

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Young officers from RMC do tend to a bit over eager and gung hoe with PT but I think the fitness training/classes they do is still way more in depth and comprehensive than what a young cpl will learn on PLQ. The 1 day fitness plq mod is only mandatory for the regular force unless it's changed. You may have a 19 year old master corporal "leading" 30 or 40 students in PT.

I'll suggest a 19 year old MCpl leading 30/40 recruits is the exception, not the rule.  IF a 19 year old MCpl is inexperienced and on the power trip, then sorting that out and properly developing the habits and attitude towards proper trg techniques is, IMO, a leadership function.  He/she needs to be mentored by a strong Sgt/WO.   So, if there is a 19 year old MCpl leading PT unsupervised, that is a leadership issue. 

Also, FWIW, almost every course I've been staff on, including BMQ at CFLRS, the Crse O lead morning PT, not the youngest MCpl available in NATO.

Experience is experience, and a Cpl with atleast 4 years in the Reg Force has seen how to do things by his/her MCpl, Sgt etc, like conduct a PT session, the same as a RMC student will see more senior people lead PT when they are going thru their system.  The danger lies in the ones who want, so badly, to be 'in the hot seat'; you know the type, frothing at the mouth to be able to "lead people", that when they do get to be staff, they are too busy bathing in their own awesomeness to remember their jobs as leaders. 

One of my favorite RSMs I ever served under, a guy who started in the Black Watch when it was still in the Reg Frce ORBAT, once said something along the line of:

"You gotta stop and ask yourself sometimes, in the middle of it all, is this trg serving any purpose to make my troops better, and if not, why the hell are we doing it then". 
"What a f$$kin' week!" - me, every Monday at about 1130hrs.

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #329 on: April 07, 2012, 18:43:25 »
I'll suggest a 19 year old MCpl leading 30/40 recruits is the exception, not the rule.  IF a 19 year old MCpl is inexperienced and on the power trip, then sorting that out and properly developing the habits and attitude towards proper trg techniques is, IMO, a leadership function.  He/she needs to be mentored by a strong Sgt/WO.   So, if there is a 19 year old MCpl leading PT unsupervised, that is a leadership issue. 

At least as far as mo'litia courses are concerned, it ends up the norm, not the exception... it's just the result of high turn-over in units, and the resulting leadership, particularly at the lower ranks, being very junior as a result.

Some do well regardless, some don't, all would benefit from mentoring...

Older/more experienced troops tend to have jobs and families, with limited availability as a result...

My better half very recently finished up a reserve weekend course. With the exception of the course warrant (who, as with any of the instructors, was only available part-time) the most senior instructor was a mcpl with two years experience...

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"You gotta stop and ask yourself sometimes, in the middle of it all, is this trg serving any purpose to make my troops better, and if not, why the hell are we doing it then".

That should be cast in brass and nailed a a lot of walls...

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #330 on: April 07, 2012, 19:34:06 »
I spent 17 years in the Res, worked as an Instr right from the Jnr Cpl instr to Crse WO and A/Crse O on home unit/LFA TC courses, so I know the realities, and limitations the Res world faced/faces.

It didn't, and doesn't, change the realities of what is or isn't leadership responsibilities, IMO. 

 :2c:
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #331 on: April 07, 2012, 19:55:54 »
It didn't, and doesn't, change the realities of what is or isn't leadership responsibilities, IMO. 

You're absolutely right, but it still remains the norm, not an exception... doesn't mean that norm is acceptable though...

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #332 on: April 07, 2012, 20:07:06 »
When I did PLQ last year, we reservist did do 1 day PT mod.  Plus there is no reserve run PLQ anymore correct me if im wrong.

Right right.  The PT mod is a day long. Reservists do not need the PT mod to be promoted to MCpl but I believe reg force members do require it.

Someone sounding legit to me would have to be confirmed with something more substantive.

I'll concede that this fellows story could be inaccurate. Maybe his triple time drill was really just double time drill that seemed really fast to him.
Maybe there is more or less to the story than he briefly explained.
Regardless of the accuracy of this guys specific story I think we all agree that someones career/life can be negatively changed in a moment thanks to someone turning a blind eye to a dangerous action.

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Examples are too numerous to name.

Exactly.


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Rucksack drill, as a punishment, went out the windows YEARS ago IIRC.  I think the last time I heard of it was early '90s in Gagetown.
I've seen it as recently as 2005

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How much does the MOB weigh?  As I said, I've done stuff like situps with 3-4 other candidates with asection of telephone pole and it was part of actual PT.  I am not saying it IS a sanctioned PT thing.  I am saying if it was it wouldn't strike me as "too much".  I go to the gym and lift weights before work, so lifting a MOB is no different to me than doing bench press.  I do it for fitness and strength trg, on my own.  If some 170lb teenager can't do a pushup with 50lbs on his back...wow.
You and I may have no problem doing it.  What about a 102 pound 5'0  female recruit, would her trying to do a push up with a 50 pound cumbersome plastic barracks box on her back be dangerous?  She crumbles smashes her face develops a back injury and shes out of the CF.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.  Personally "mob box push ups" just seems dangerous to me.

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Also, FWIW, almost every course I've been staff on, including BMQ at CFLRS, the Crse O lead morning PT, not the youngest MCpl available in NATO.
Agreed, it's the times with manning shortages and what do find inexperienced members leading their own style of PT that's the issue.

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Experience is experience, and a Cpl with atleast 4 years in the Reg Force has seen how to do things by his/her MCpl, Sgt etc, like conduct a PT session, the same as a RMC student will see more senior people lead PT when they are going thru their system.  The danger lies in the ones who want, so badly, to be 'in the hot seat'; you know the type, frothing at the mouth to be able to "lead people", that when they do get to be staff, they are too busy bathing in their own awesomeness to remember their jobs as leaders. 
For sure.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #333 on: April 07, 2012, 20:13:44 »
Right right.  The PT mod is a day long. Reservists do not need the PT mod to be promoted to MCpl but I believe reg force members do require it.

Absolutely they do, unless somthing has changed recently.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #334 on: April 07, 2012, 20:14:42 »
Right right.  The PT mod is a day long. Reservists do not need the PT mod to be promoted to MCpl but I believe reg force members do require it.

For the in-house courses we run MOD 1 (PT)  is manditory.....
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #335 on: April 07, 2012, 20:25:26 »
Looks like it's changed recently. That's good news.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #336 on: April 07, 2012, 20:32:46 »
You and I may have no problem doing it.  What about a 102 pound 5'0  female recruit, would her trying to do a push up with a 50 pound cumbersome plastic barracks box on her back be dangerous?  She crumbles smashes her face develops a back injury and shes out of the CF.

I don't want to get into the "there should be one standard" argument, its circular and has been  :deadhorse: so I'll just leave that one at that.

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I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.  Personally "mob box push ups" just seems dangerous to me.

As they very likely are, but I like to focus on the point of IF it is happening, it needs to be addressed to those who have the power to cease the activity, correct the Instr, etc. 

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Agreed, it's the times with manning shortages and what do find inexperienced members leading their own style of PT that's the issue.

I see that as a Leadership issue.  If the Crse O/Crse WO provide direction on "what/when/how/who", there should be no problem.  If there is a problem, it also suggests the instr NOT following the direction is not following orders.  That can be dealt with as well.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #337 on: April 08, 2012, 00:40:26 »
PLQ Mods 1-3 include the PT portion for both the Regular Force and Reserve candidates. This can get slightly silly as I have seen Reservists who are qualified civvy fitness instructors/trainers in their "real life" jobs being herded into the fitness center along with everyone else (and in the back of my mind I wondered what CSOR candidates thought of the PT experience compared to what they do back in their unit).

I am a big proponent of the "one standard" model, since a C-6 GPMG weighs 11 KG regardless of who is carrying it. Until someone can make local exceptions to the laws of physics, that's just the way it will be.

I am a bit stunned to hear of people doing "barracks box" pushups with the barracks box on their backs. Not only is it dangerous and stupid, it is also implausible. Did they perhaps mean the candidates were doing pushups with their feet elevated by being up on the barracks box so more body weight rests on the arms? That is plausible and also sanctioned (putting the feet up on benches and so on is the more common way to do this, but a MOABB will do in a pinch).

Leaders are responsible for the care of their troops as well as the readiness to carry out tasks. Perhaps if their mentors teach junior leaders to treat the men like high quality tools rather than disposable widgits we will see attitudes change for the better.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #338 on: June 07, 2012, 09:49:47 »
Just got a date for the PLQ Residential.  I know what the PLQ is obviously but the residential portion of that title is a bit confusing. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

HH

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #339 on: June 07, 2012, 09:57:44 »
Just got a date for the PLQ Residential.  I know what the PLQ is obviously but the residential portion of that title is a bit confusing. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

HH

Depending on what mods you have the residency usually covers the fol: Some lectures on leadership (PO 201), Instruct personel (Skill, Knowledge and Drill. PO 202), Conduct a conventional range (you act as an ARSO, Butts NCO, Ammo NCO. PO 210) and conduct Physical Fitness training (PO 203).
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Offline ARMY_101

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #340 on: June 07, 2012, 10:01:50 »
The current DL Package for PLQ covers material from modules 2, 4 and 5 duration is 10 training days.  In order to complete Mod 2, however you need to attend the residency portion.

Anyone know how we complete Mods 1 and 3 then?  :-\  My MPRR says I've completed 2, 4, and 5, but we did training covering all 5 mods.  And as far as I know, you can't just go to battle school for individual mods...

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #341 on: June 07, 2012, 10:08:59 »
Mod 1 is run by PSP, you get assessed running a PT session and write a written test and Mod 3 is Field and Range Safety where you are on a range and are assessed in two positions (ARSO, Butts NCO, Ammo NCO or Background activities). 

 If you have completed these activities I suggest finding any proof of that and talking to your Chain of Command to get it entered onto your MPRR.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #342 on: June 07, 2012, 11:22:42 »
Depending on what mods you have .........

Wasn't it just easier the old way ? You went to the school for 8 weeks-ish and that was it.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #343 on: June 07, 2012, 11:25:58 »
I wish, that would solve a lot of administrative headaches.  It is going to get worse this fall when they Army PLQ replaces the PLQ Land.  The Army PLQ has 4 Mods while the current PLQ Land has 6 Mods, I forsee a lot of confussion for people that have some of the Mods but not all of them.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #344 on: June 07, 2012, 14:31:16 »
I wish, that would solve a lot of administrative headaches.  It is going to get worse this fall when they Army PLQ replaces the PLQ Land.  The Army PLQ has 4 Mods while the current PLQ Land has 6 Mods, I forsee a lot of confussion for people that have some of the Mods but not all of them.

Have a feeling that they would not get credit for the former mods with the newier mods......
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #345 on: June 07, 2012, 17:00:10 »
I wish, that would solve a lot of administrative headaches.  It is going to get worse this fall when they Army PLQ replaces the PLQ Land.  The Army PLQ has 4 Mods while the current PLQ Land has 6 Mods, I forsee a lot of confussion for people that have some of the Mods but not all of them.

Wait what? There's a new PLQ? What mods will the new one cover?
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #346 on: June 24, 2012, 20:16:11 »
Any more info on this new PLQ course?  And if the older mods troops already have will carry over?

I already have mods 1-5 so really hoping I won't have to repeat any of that subject matter and just do whatever the new Mod 6 is.

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #347 on: June 24, 2012, 20:21:43 »
Any more info on this new PLQ course?  And if the older mods troops already have will carry over?

I already have mods 1-5 so really hoping I won't have to repeat any of that subject matter and just do whatever the new Mod 6 is.

I would expect that, like the Infantry DP realignment, the 'old' and 'new' courses will be run concurrently for a few years; anyone with some of PLQ already will likely carry on under the current system. Anyone who's not yet commenced will likely start in the new system. This will continue for a reasonable period time, within which it can be expected that most if not all troops who are actually motivated to complete a PLQ that they've already commenced will do so.

I'll try to get on documentum tomorrow and see if the new PLQs have been put up; if so I'll try to throw together a summary.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #348 on: June 25, 2012, 00:15:53 »
The new Army PLQ is up on Documentum (the Army PLQ TP is under the current PLQ folder)  and if I remember correctly it has a timeline on how long the old Mods are good for.  I don't think it is for very long, I fear a lot of troops are going to have to repeat some training.
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #349 on: June 25, 2012, 12:19:16 »
I already have mods 1-5 so really hoping I won't have to repeat any of that subject matter and just do whatever the new Mod 6 is.

Same here... but we all know that's a dream and at least some people will fall through.