Author Topic: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread  (Read 589313 times)

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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #775 on: March 16, 2019, 07:18:33 »
The CAF, Army in the case of Shilo, needs Junior NCO leaders that are physically able to 'lead from the front' and have the ability to perform their MOSID and Jnr NCO leadership tasks in the field.

Should PT and field training be removed so "more candidates can pass", or should candidates be better prepared physically for the training and expectations?
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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #776 on: March 16, 2019, 10:33:02 »
One of the first lessons learned on ISCC/CLC/JLC/JNCO/PLQ etc is that all candidates are equal, but some are more equal than others. If you are liked, you can get away with murder. If not, you're boned. PT, drill and classroom instruction, and field portion are a necessity. 15 weeks of belt fed ****? Perhaps not.
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Offline ringo598

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #777 on: March 16, 2019, 12:15:26 »
My concern is the failure rates, when you compare to other places (Ancedotal I know, but I've had people very recently on courses in Meaford, Aldershot, Wainwright) the failure rates were maybe 5-10%.  Its the difference between a mentoring course where the candidates left with more/better leadership skills vs a suffering course where the candidates learned nothing except how to be miserable for 2 weeks.

You know, I wouldn't even be chapped if the course was renamed Primary Mental and Physical Resilience Training (PMPRT, copyrighting that) and was a tough miserable slog with classes on mental and physical resilience skills theory, methods of dealing with sleep dep, and austere environment training thrown in.  But don't call it Primary Leadership and then have people learn/retain no leadership skills afterwards because the whole 12 weeks was just them being screamed at and doing section attacks hundreds of times until over half the course is sent home with injuries.
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Offline cld617

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #778 on: March 16, 2019, 14:51:35 »
The CAF, Army in the case of Shilo, needs Junior NCO leaders that are physically able to 'lead from the front' and have the ability to perform their MOSID and Jnr NCO leadership tasks in the field.

Should PT and field training be removed so "more candidates can pass", or should candidates be better prepared physically for the training and expectations?

This is a case of wanting to maintain the universality of service mantra while enacting the changes that allow the sick lame and lazy to be promoted. If the CAF wants to promote and utilize the expertise of the 46 year old mother of 3 who has knee injuries but is a damned good Supply Tech, then they need to appropriately tailor career courses to them and administer the CAF wide courses at that level. If we want to establish FORCE test times which allow someone to saunter and pass, then we can't let runaway staff conduct course PT or training which requires a  30 year olds Silver and up peformance level.

So yes, the PT and training needs to be trimmed if its causing this many injuries in non-combat arms modules of PLQ. We don't need to abuse and break our people on a course that already lacks leadership instruction.

Offline ringo598

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #779 on: March 16, 2019, 15:16:02 »
I'm not sure the fit part made a difference?  Many of the people lost I found were fit with operational experience, but at 2am with no sleep on rickity snowshoes in the dark, people would slip on ice or tank ruts and injure themselves.  In fact the two most fit people I met in the CAF both ended up releasing from PLQ related injuries.

I just find is odd when I ask people what they learned/did on PLQ and the response is usually "I just got C.O.C.K.E.D around for X weeks and I learned crap cause I was sleep ****ed the whole time".
"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."- Mikhail Kalashnikov, Creator of the AK47

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #780 on: March 16, 2019, 19:13:27 »
So, is the concern with the CAF PLQ, or the AJLC or whatever it's called now?  Or...is it the way the course is being administered/conducted in Shilo, vice all Army JLC TEs?

The 46 year old supply tech has the same QS, TP etc to live up to on PLQ as the 26 year old, and that makes sense.  The way the course is delivered is likely the issue;  if the 46 year old mother of three with knee injuries did CAF PLQ in Borden, she could very well likely witness the same QS and TP applied...differently then at a "Battle School" TE.

Personally, I was and will remain a supporter of the way junior NCO training was grouped/conducted back when I did it;  ISCC (infantry only) , CLC (combat arms and service support) and JLC (everyone else).
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Offline LunchMeat

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #781 on: March 16, 2019, 20:13:52 »
So, is the concern with the CAF PLQ, or the AJLC or whatever it's called now?  Or...is it the way the course is being administered/conducted in Shilo, vice all Army JLC TEs?

The 46 year old supply tech has the same QS, TP etc to live up to on PLQ as the 26 year old, and that makes sense.  The way the course is delivered is likely the issue;  if the 46 year old mother of three with knee injuries did CAF PLQ in Borden, she could very well likely witness the same QS and TP applied...differently then at a "Battle School" TE.

Personally, I was and will remain a supporter of the way junior NCO training was grouped/conducted back when I did it;  ISCC (infantry only) , CLC (combat arms and service support) and JLC (everyone else).

Doesn't matter if it's CAF PLQ or AJLC, it's the delivery by the DS.

My AJLC in Wainwright was great, instructors from the PPCLI with good heads on them. There was real mentorship.

My buddy did his same time in Edmonton and it was a course mainly of Reservists and the DS were very unreasonable. Like the previous poster mentioned, he learned more about what kind of leader NOT to be but couldn't remember much else from the course.
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Offline ringo598

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #782 on: March 16, 2019, 20:18:57 »
I think for me a little of both?  If a supply tech is doing a recce, something terrible has happened at the pointy end.  I'd love to see it tackle common tasks in the current battlefield.  Instead of Recce's and section attacks which I believe (Someone offer evidence of a non-combat trade running a section attack or recce in the 10 years in AFG?) those trades would reasonably never do. 

Is it better to train the combat tasks that will probably happen (Mounted ambush, IED, base defence, convoy's, etc) vs 'soldier first' skills that will nearly never happen? 

I think I'm bias'ed anyways as I'm a bitter complaining old guy who still has long lasting injuries from my course lol.

I just really hate seeing fellow soldiers hurt for what seems is minimal training value.
"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."- Mikhail Kalashnikov, Creator of the AK47

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #783 on: March 17, 2019, 08:05:33 »
Doesn't matter if it's CAF PLQ or AJLC, it's the delivery by the DS.

My AJLC in Wainwright was great, instructors from the PPCLI with good heads on them. There was real mentorship.

My buddy did his same time in Edmonton and it was a course mainly of Reservists and the DS were very unreasonable. Like the previous poster mentioned, he learned more about what kind of leader NOT to be but couldn't remember much else from the course.

Then I think we're agreeing and maybe not realizing it?   :nod:

The CAF PLQ employs the same QS/TP.  I'm betting that QS/TP is...delivered differently...at the Army TEs, the RCAFA in Borden, and at CFNOS in Halifax.  I know a few people (hard air trades) who did their PLQ @ CFLRS and compared to the normal delivery at the Air Academy, CFLRS had more f$$kery included during the course.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #784 on: March 17, 2019, 08:18:43 »
I think for me a little of both?  If a supply tech is doing a recce, something terrible has happened at the pointy end.  I'd love to see it tackle common tasks in the current battlefield.  Instead of Recce's and section attacks which I believe (Someone offer evidence of a non-combat trade running a section attack or recce in the 10 years in AFG?) those trades would reasonably never do. 

Is it better to train the combat tasks that will probably happen (Mounted ambush, IED, base defence, convoy's, etc) vs 'soldier first' skills that will nearly never happen? 

I think I'm bias'ed anyways as I'm a bitter complaining old guy who still has long lasting injuries from my course lol.

I just really hate seeing fellow soldiers hurt for what seems is minimal training value.

These are comments that I'm hoping, as a Standards & Training type in my current job, get pushed up the CofC, entered in course critiques, etc.  Commanders should have input/observations like this to consider in making their decisions.  Someone is managing the QS for the AJLC; is that QUal Mgr getting this type of feedback via course critiques and/or AAR? 

The course that started with 43 and graduated 18 (I think that was the numbers given above), that should have gotten the attention of the Standards folks. 

Despite all the name changing, and seemingly never ending changes to PLQ QS content, etc across the CAF, nothing seems to have REALLY changed since my CLC in '93.  My fire team partner was a Fin Clerk and her assessment to be a Fin Clerk MCpl was based on section attacks and recce patrols, vice anything related to the actual challenges in her job.  We had a sister course that was half combat arms, half CSS types, the same as we were.  We couldn't understand why they didn't run 1 CLC and 1 JLC course...fast forward 26 years and look at the discussion points now.  Not much has changed; the CAF appears to still be all over the board on Jnr NCO coursing.

Everything happens for a reason.

Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions.

Offline Furniture

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #785 on: March 17, 2019, 10:23:05 »
Then I think we're agreeing and maybe not realizing it?   :nod:

The CAF PLQ employs the same QS/TP.  I'm betting that QS/TP is...delivered differently...at the Army TEs, the RCAFA in Borden, and at CFNOS in Halifax.  I know a few people (hard air trades) who did their PLQ @ CFLRS and compared to the normal delivery at the Air Academy, CFLRS had more f$$kery included during the course.

When I attended PLQ at the ACA in Borden back in '08 it was a relaxed course. We were one of the early "enhanced" PLQ courses that did the week in a "FOB" rather than the daily trip in busses to the "field". The field portion was a bit silly, but it was far better than the old style "move a barrel with these two sticks and a rubber band" type of task that had existed before. Our instructors were there to teach us about leadership(which was actually all management), and mentor us as experienced Sgts(the actual leadership training).

The course staff didn't mess around with us during inspections, we didn't even have a kit layout. All we had to do was tidy/clean our rooms, and wear presentable CADPAT. PT was only either PSP lead or, student lead as training for our assessment on our PT lesson plan.

I learned through time that apparently the RCN and CA didn't get the memo stating that Cpls and MCpls had already passed BMQ, and didn't need to be recoursed...

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #786 on: May 13, 2019, 11:51:34 »
Hey,
Going on my PLQ in Halifax next month and wondering if anyone has information they can share with me. I am air force going on a navy PLQ and I have never been to Halifax.
Thanks :)

Offline ringo598

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #787 on: May 18, 2019, 19:44:07 »
Even though I still havn't redone my AJLC, I did pass the CAF PLQ semi-recently.  The combined one isn't hard as long as the staff don't go out of their way to fail people which I doubt you'll see in Halifax simply because the Navy/Air seem more focused on running the course as a leadership qualification verse CAC-PLQ.  (Hmmm yessss put me in that stress position, sorry off topic).

Biggest non-medical RTU/Injury issues I saw:

1.  Giving briefs/orders.  Very basic public speaking skills, work on those.  Be able to write concisely and to sum things down, you'll get tons of stuff throw at you during orders, your job is to summerize and explain it down to your troops/sailors/airfolk.  Battle procedure is the entire field ex, just cycles of you getting orders, creating orders, giving orders, executing orders.  And remember, make a decision, the staff arn't looking for the best decision, but that you make one.

2.  The auto fails on mod 2, I think we had 8-9 people on final or PRB from all the auto fails.  You have to teach 3 classes which have tons of auto-fails in the scoring:
     a)  General Knowledge class like trenches or defensive works.
     b)  A weapons class on a section of the C7.  Example teaching how to field strip and clean.  Tons of autofails for safety here, like if you don't have the students clear their weapons or if you mess up the EDI process.  You'll learn EDI.
     c)  Drill.  You'll get a drill movement and have to teach your squad it.  Autofails for the process, of if you call the command wrong.  This one failed a lot of people because you had to memorize the entire class and process, while the other things you taught you could have an written aid.

If you do poorly and whatever, DON'T STRESS, the PRB/Warnings reset at the end of the mod.  Learn from your mistake and move on.

You get soft and hard assessments and lots of practice, but some people in front of a crowd all alone and having to call drill or missing one step of EDI and its a fail.  It sucks and I've never seen in 10 years a class taught the way they teach, but you play the game. 

You have to also be an A-RSO and run a fitness class as well, very few people failed this.  Just follow the steps and go through it with a buddy before you do it, its easy to tell who prepped and who didn't. 

Mod 3 is battle procedure and field ex.  Again, make a decision, look after your troops, write down and brief your orders in the correct sequence.  We made fill in the blank sheets to help out people who were having problems, it literally was to the point I had "I say again, 3 section will x by y with x IOT accomplish w" so you would remember to say the mission twice.  The field ex is just scenarios that you could face on any stab op, like a checkpoint.  Try to get done first before you get sleep ****ed, its definitely not equal at all since people who go first are clear and awake and so your job is much much easier, the guys who go near the end are completely wrecked and are at a huge disadvantage.  If you are strong on this take one for your team and let someone weaker go first and you take a test near the end.

Anything else just ask.
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Offline Rifleman62

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Re: Primary Leadership Qualification Course (PLQ) Mega thread
« Reply #788 on: May 19, 2019, 10:09:20 »
Dealing with tired people when giving Orders, it is good practice to ask for a quick brief back of the individual tasks/vital points of your orders to your section and the key points (e.g.timings, etc) before saying Questions in One/Two Minutes.
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