Author Topic: More "Army" in Army Cadets (combat training, etc.)  (Read 78568 times)

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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #175 on: September 01, 2011, 22:01:59 »
We've done little bits and pieces over the years for our affiliated corps. Take out some radio gear, spent a night teaching VP and did a VP ex with the radios. We've brought a few senior cadets+CIC officers out on a few exercises as well (I don't know if it's something that we were "allowed" to do or not, I really don't care, all parties involved seemed pleased)

I'm confident there's plenty the army can do to keep the "army" in "army cadets" without crossing the "child soldiers" line...

Offline Colin P

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #176 on: September 02, 2011, 04:14:26 »
As a reserve unit our cadet corp would select cadets who would work with us on the 105mm as part of the gun crews, they did very well and many went on to join the reserves and regs. Cadet units used to a place where kids who wanted to join the reserves/regs went to learn skills and slowly become part of the parent unit.
While changes in the way the leadership operates may be required. I suspect that educating parents as to what cadets are supposed to do is part of the problem. When I was a cadet, training with firearms was normal even for a sea cadet.

Offline Pusser

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #177 on: September 02, 2011, 11:46:07 »
And while I could "Dial" all that stuff back; it doesn't change the fact that CIC officers shouldn't have commissions as it serves ZERO purpose in the implementation of the cadet program.

I can't agree with that statement.  Not only do CIC officer have real commissions, I believe they should.  The management of a youth program is important enough that it requires an appropriate level of leadership and that level exists within the commissioned ranks.  Don't let a few bad apples allow you to draw a negative impression of the entire Branch.

The problems you have described are not unique to COATS.  I can tell you as a Logistics officer that fudged claims, poor management of SCAs and LSA and fumbled administration exist everywhere across the CF, but no one is saying that officers in infantry batallions, air squadrons or ships at sea shouldn't be commissioned.  Those of us in the audit business do our best to find and correct these things, but it is a neverending task.  Luckily, most people want to do the right thing, so correcting problems isn't usually too difficult.  The most frustrating part  is having to re-invent the wheel everytime we go through a posting cycle.

Yes, there is an old-boys network at play in some parts of the CIC, but the same can be said of many Reserve units as well.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Remember also that commissions are not just about priviledge for officers, they are also tools for holding them accountable.  Because CIC officers are members of the CF and because they are commissioned, the full weight of the QR&O can be brought to bear should they stray outside the lines.  Not only are they subject to criminal prosecution for transgressions, they are also subject to the Code of Service Discipline, which itself is harder on officers than it is on NCMs.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #178 on: September 02, 2011, 12:01:45 »
Yes, there is an old-boys network at play in some parts of the CIC, but the same can be said of many Reserve units and Regular Force branches as well.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Fixed that for you.
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Offline ballz

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #179 on: September 02, 2011, 12:10:06 »
The management of a youth program is important enough that it requires an appropriate level of leadership and that level exists within the commissioned ranks.


This argument sucks. The standard of leadership to which they are awarding a commission to CIC officers is quite different from the standard of leadership they are measuring Reg and PRes officers by. I know you are not doing so on purpose, but it comes across as you saying that a CIC officer makes for a better leader because he holds a commission than if he did not have one. That sure isn't true, because while a commission is an important piece of paper, it is still a piece of paper and does not change or add to the character of a man (or woman). And if it's easy to obtain, it means a lot less to the holder.

Remember also that commissions are not just about priviledge for officers, they are also tools for holding them accountable.  Because CIC officers are members of the CF and because they are commissioned, the full weight of the QR&O can be brought to bear should they stray outside the lines.  Not only are they subject to criminal prosecution for transgressions, they are also subject to the Code of Service Discipline, which itself is harder on officers than it is on NCMs.


This is a way better argument, and something I had not thought of before.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #180 on: September 02, 2011, 14:16:14 »
Yes, there is an old-boys network at play in some parts of the CIC, but the same can be said of many Reserve units and Regular Force branches as well.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Fixed that for you.

Fair point, but what I was getting at was that Reserve units often have members that have been there their entire careers (sometimes 30+ years) allowing the old boys club to thrive.  Reserve units also often have multiple generations of entire families serving at the same time.  These situations cause problems, which although not unheard of in the Regular Force, are somewhat mitigated by the posting cycle.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #181 on: September 02, 2011, 14:30:57 »


This argument sucks. The standard of leadership to which they are awarding a commission to CIC officers is quite different from the standard of leadership they are measuring Reg and PRes officers by. I know you are not doing so on purpose, but it comes across as you saying that a CIC officer makes for a better leader because he holds a commission than if he did not have one. That sure isn't true, because while a commission is an important piece of paper, it is still a piece of paper and does not change or add to the character of a man (or woman). And if it's easy to obtain, it means a lot less to the holder.
 

You're right.  I didn't mean it the way you initially took it.  My point is that the junior officer level is the appropriate level of leadership required for a cadet corps, so yes, it is appropriate to commission CIC officers to do that.  However, I also agree that perhaps we should be holding CIC officers to a higher standard commensurate with the commission they hold (which, by the way is way more than just a piece of paper).  I would say that the majority of CIC officers do meet the standard, but I would also argue that there are a higher percentage of CIC officers that do not than there are in other branches, largely because they're harder to get rid of.  Unfortunately, the bad ones tend to be more noticeable.  There are plenty of idiots in the CIC, but that is not the only Branch afflicted by that problem.
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Offline Hurricane

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #182 on: September 02, 2011, 18:43:35 »
Really? How many times is this going to come up?  What? Upset because some kid who probably spent the last two years of his life working towards a chance at competing for one of the 50 or so slots on course, out of how many cadets that meet the age across the entire country, got on a course that you didn't?

I'm not even going to waste my time to read your profile.  You have to compete with what? Your platoon? Company at best?  If your unit can't get slots on para courses, then they probably don't require paratroopers... If theydoneed spots, and they just aren't getting offered to you..... Best get up on that chin up bar and work to set yourself up to shine against your mates.

Every time there is a thread on this site re: para, wings, or JTF-2, some putz with an attitude comes on here being all bitter about kids getting the opportunity to strive for something really great.  I can personally attest to the fact that cadet programs offering things such as para, gliding etc, really go a long way with helping at risk youth keep focused and on the right track.  Can't have a problem with that can you?

A: There was no attitude in that post, I was merely suggesting that if you compare the numbers of cadets that are even close to meeting the reqirements to apply for the course, VICE the military members who are in trades that have no jump requirement. The odds are better if you are a cadet. I have never applied for para nor do I intend to. Best get on that chinup bar and work off that stress.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 18:49:48 by Hurricane »

Offline MedCorps

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #183 on: September 02, 2011, 19:45:45 »
One of the techniques for putting the "army" back in Army Cadets I think really hinges on the interaction with the affiliated unit.  The goal is to familiarize the RCAC with the Army, and inspire interest without training them to be child soldiers.  There is plenty of pretty neat (to a 12-18 year old) army stuff that is done and that has civilian cross over. 

We not not need to teach the Gun Fighter program to cadets in order to put the "army" in army cadets.  A few examples in include having a soldier teach.

Sigs unit --> radio's, voice procedure, antennas, etc.
MP unit  --> basic law, self defence (not unarmed combat)
Log unit --> for Cdt's 16 and over basic vehicle maintenance (a green truck is much like ones blue car), safe backing, DDC, etc. 
EME unit --> think of all the cool things Mat Techs do, teach some of these basic skills out of the back of an MRT.  Wpns techs could teach very basic gun smithing on non restricted weapons.   
Med unit --> advanced first aid, wilderness first aid, stretcher drills
Eng unit --> basic field tools and construction skills, the list here is endless.

The other inf/armd/arty can talk about history, tradition, situate real world events, talk about missions and equipment and such.  PT, GPS nav, compass nav, field craft, etc, etc, 

The options are endless, and what seems dull to a solder who does this stuff every day can really be exciting to a Cadet, espcially when taught by a "real" soldier.  When I was a cadet, other than all the cool "child soldier" stuff I was taught, I still remember some of the best lectures from my affiliated unit during weekend ex's being things like basic vehicle recovery (with the 5/4 ton), wilderness survival, the use of a chain-saw mill, and antennas.   All stuff which spawned my interest and I have used both in and outside the army since. 

Food for thought... if you want more depth let me know.

MC


 

Offline Pistos

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #184 on: September 02, 2011, 20:34:05 »

I agree that the answer is not section attacks and bigger weapons, but there's a lot more to the army than closing with and destroying the enemy.  I work in the sea cadet programme so I'm not an SME on army cadet training, but I've always been a proponent of their having more exposure to other areas of the army like engineering, vehicles, medical, etc.  As one example there used to be a driver-mechanic course for army cadets in which they learned to drive and perform basic service on military vehicles.  There's no end of training of that nature that could put the army back into army cadets without risking a "child soldiers" label.

I agree with the idea of exposing them to more aspects of the CF than just infantry.  I went through cadets back in the day and never once gave a thought to reg force service...because I didn't want to be an infantryman.  We did drill, went out in the field, learned first aid, and even went out on the range in Cornwallis with the FN's.  It was fun, social, relaxed (mostly) and beneficial but never once did I think, "This is what I want to do for a career".  It was much later in life that I began to understand the CF was much more than basic training. 

Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #185 on: September 02, 2011, 21:25:10 »
Sigs unit --> radio's, voice procedure, antennas, etc.
MP unit  --> basic law, self defence (not unarmed combat)
Log unit --> for Cdt's 16 and over basic vehicle maintenance (a green truck is much like ones blue car), safe backing, DDC, etc. 
EME unit --> think of all the cool things Mat Techs do, teach some of these basic skills out of the back of an MRT.  Wpns techs could teach very basic gun smithing on non restricted weapons.   
Med unit --> advanced first aid, wilderness first aid, stretcher drills
Eng unit --> basic field tools and construction skills, the list here is endless.

The other inf/armd/arty can talk about history, tradition, situate real world events, talk about missions and equipment and such.  PT, GPS nav, compass nav, field craft, etc, etc, 

Many of those things are stuff any army unit can do... almost any army unit should have at least one SMP pattern vehicle, should have a few radios and few troops with a comms course, any army unit can support a nav ex, or field craft training...

All sorts of things the army can do to support the cadet movement, and cost effectively... is it a lack of will? Budget? Lack of knowledge? Lack of official guidelines?

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #186 on: September 02, 2011, 21:44:52 »
All sorts of things the army can do to support the cadet movement, and cost effectively... is it a lack of will? Budget? Lack of knowledge? Lack of official guidelines?

Yes, Not really, Yes, No.

I have volunteered with the PWOR Cadet Corps in the past.  I left for a couple of reasons, the biggest was that I was posted out of Kingston.  Most of the Reg F that helped there either used to belong to the Corps, or their children where in the Corps.

Most of the support the Corps need are manpower and drive from the people helping.  As it is all volunteer, there is no budget constraints.  When I tought First Aid there, all the training supplies came from my unit (with the CO's permission) but all consumable were supplied by the District HQ in Trenton.

Most Reg F members do not know that they can help with a Cadet Corps, but how to go about it is clearly written in various orders and are easy to find if you are looking for them.
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Offline AJC

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #187 on: September 06, 2011, 13:14:13 »
Interesting topic, have heard it all from my nephew. Agree with a lot of comments out there, here's mine:
1. Comparing CIC officers to other CF officers is futile. They are not leading in TFA. They are entrusted with the cadet program and have the responsability to conduct safe trg for the kids. The position of trust/authority, emphasized by being an officer should ensure they are accountable for any funny business. The fact they go through recruiting process should screen out most of the wierdos. They are however in the same position as PRes units in that they have to generate their own succession plan. Not easy when the rewards are few and the bureacratic BS is many. Unfortunately there are a few CIC out there that figure they are ready to lead the next crossing of the Rhine. There are asshats everywhere. Most I have dealt with do what they do pretty well but suffer from inexperience. Subalterns are the same everywhere.
2.  ACA's / ACO's or whatever, when I was in cadets were PPCLI Sgts who most times provided some really good guidance, especially during the summer camps. One of the last ones I dealt with (yr 2000) was an idiot who was well past his expiry date. They should be Reg F in order to provide some military guidance and have an outside view. Their opinions should be backed by their C of C  and not be subject to anything but respect from Corp Officers.
3. It would make a big difference if there were more incentives for Reg F / PRes officers and Sr NCM's to be part of the cadet system after retirement. Current pension arrangements make that difficullt and more bureaucratic BS makes it unattractive. Knowing some of the leaders have real Army experience makes a big difference with a cadets preception, unless they are asshats.
4. I don't think that sniper training or underwater knife fighting courses are required in order to bring army to the cadets. Change the names back to army names, insert a little more rifle trg and fieldcraft, and thats all you need. Its only Army Cadets. The adventure trg army cadets do now is leaps beyond what we used to do.
5. The cadet training system as I see it could not get more complicated if we tried. Seemed to me it used to be pretty simple yet it worked. Whatever  happened to Gold Star testing, staff cadet inst to be Master Cadet and thats it. I also remember Gold Star being fairly tough and not everybody made it. My oldest son got his with little effort and a poor attitude. The more you overmanage the cadets the more %^$ ups you will find.
6. I think the biggest thing to sort out cadets is to fix the summer camps. I went to Vernon three years as a Cadet, went back as a WO trg Advisor, and have watched my kid be a cadet and staff cadet.  Its changed alot. The senior officers when I went through in my old days had army and some, war experience (Lilley, Beer, Kinloch etc etc). That is needed. The last camp I was at shocked me at the level of indecision and faulty direction from the highest levels down to the RSM (idiot who should have known better).  Complete s&*%show.  CIC Lcols should be the exception, based on a really strong CF resume. Army has to support the camps with Sgts & WO's, whereever they can find them. The Staff Cadets need better M of I training before camp starts conducted by army NCO's, and need guidance through out the summer. Get the Staff cadets and CIC Officers off the Parades and let the Cadets develop their leadership by being in charge at least for the parades. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put CIC Officers on the parades either never saw some of the larger ones, or had dreams of leading a BN. The parades are for the cadets.
7. The first corp son #1 joined was run by the parents committee. His chance of going to camp, going on trips, and even getting promoted depend on parents fundraising participation. Complete BS, hence he joined a second one. There should be no parents inspecting parades, advising CO's or designing training plans.

Most of the checked out senior cadets I remember never joined the CF. They would have done well but did other things with their lives. I am sure that the cadet system was a huge benefit for them. My last son is joining this week. I know I will cringe at what I see and hear at the corps, but I also know that in the end it will make him a better Cdn.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #188 on: September 06, 2011, 23:01:23 »
Yes, Not really, Yes, No.

I have volunteered with the PWOR Cadet Corps in the past.  I left for a couple of reasons, the biggest was that I was posted out of Kingston.  Most of the Reg F that helped there either used to belong to the Corps, or their children where in the Corps.

Most of the support the Corps need are manpower and drive from the people helping.  As it is all volunteer, there is no budget constraints.  When I tought First Aid there, all the training supplies came from my unit (with the CO's permission) but all consumable were supplied by the District HQ in Trenton.

Most Reg F members do not know that they can help with a Cadet Corps, but how to go about it is clearly written in various orders and are easy to find if you are looking for them.

I noticed in the 80's very few reg force guys were aware they could volunteer to help the various groups on the bases. it seemed all they did was work and party. I think the leadership should have made it clear to the younger guys that helping these groups was important, would be noticed and wpuld play a part in promotions.

Offline rwgill

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #189 on: September 12, 2011, 16:46:05 »


 In my opinion we are way too far into league responsibilities, and with the responsibilities we have it's impossible to succeed in "the mission" with a "lack" of a commission ourselves.


Grading CIC officers is not a League responsibility, it's a CF one.  Until recently, all CIC promotions and appointments required League approval.  Now, League approval is only required for enrollment of a new CIC officer (possibly transfer of a CIC officer to a LHQ establishment but nobody has answered that question for me yet).  The League, should it have concerns about specific officers, should be addressing them with the CF chain of command.  Though both you and I have a stake in the program, CIC training, promotions and appointments are CF issues.

Placing the Army back into Army Cadets falls into quite a bit of grey area.  Training is a CF issue.  Complimentary and Optional training falls under CF direction, with both CF and League (Sponsoring Committee) funding.  The Affiliated Unit (and other non-CCO CF support) falls under the League.  In order to do what some cadets wish, full cooperation and a mutual understanding would be required.  Most importantly though, someone needs to step to the plate and assume "command" of the issue at ALL levels.  Unfortunately, very few do or can.

The CPU is fantastic and I know several CIC officers who have been on the writing boards.  While it is great (a huge improvement over what we had) it does have some major faults.  The mandatory program is the meat and potatoes of the program, with full CF funding.  The complimentary training (some required for successful completion of Star Level training) is the soup, salad, desert and drinks, with partial CF funding and partial League (Sponsoring Committee) funding.  Many local League branches are struggling to pay rent, so how do they pay for fun Army training?


Offline N. McKay

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Re: How to put "army" back into army cadets
« Reply #190 on: September 12, 2011, 21:36:09 »
Now, League approval is only required for [...] (possibly transfer of a CIC officer to a LHQ establishment but nobody has answered that question for me yet).

No, the League no longer signs the 324 for this.