Author Topic: Indian or Chinese Regiment  (Read 28086 times)

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Online Chris Pook

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2004, 17:39:51 »
The whole argument that is going on in Britain right now about disbandment of Regiments is all about distinctness and tribal identities.  It is why the British Army could effectively combine Royalist (Guards Regiments) and Government (County Regiments), English, Welsh, Scots Lowlanders and Scots Highlanders and even Gurkhas.  It is why the also incorporate and operate with Sikhs, Pathans, Pushtuns, Punjabis, Gujarattis, Persians and even Omani and Jordanian Arabs.

Uniformity of purpose and command doesn't have to mean sameness, nor even blandness.  It might be useful and instructive if Canada did field a Sikh Unit or a Muslim unit where the membership was one of choice and not exclusion.  ie anybody could join, regardless of background, just because they liked the Regimental "Culture".  Hence we have Chinese in Scots Regiments because the like the kilt, the pipes, Robert Burns and haggis.....OK maybe the haggis stretching a point.

But anyway supplying homes for people to be comfortable, places where the are not isolated but mix with others, and homes that show to the rest of the world that you can be different and co-operate, I don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing....
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2004, 20:09:52 »
Just a note from the opposite extreme: Years ago in Wainwright I was having "some" beers with a group of British soldiers, when one of them loudly declaimed how great the "Iron Lady" had been as a Prime Minister. "Thatcher sorted out those spooks and wogs" he roared, to the loud approval of all there. He was also perhaps the blackest individual I had ever seen, so the comment about "spooks and wogs" seemed rather bizzare.

The reason he felt able to say such things (and get full approval of his fellows, including a few other gentlemen of the black persuasion) was that in the British Army, everyone is "Green".

Here in Canada, Regimental titles are mostly historical artifacts of the past two centuries, and like a lot of posters have noted, there is no big deal if (for example) a person of Asian background wants to join a Highland Regiment. If anyone was to seriously start pushing for a new unit with religious/ethnic overtones in its charter or Regimental title, there would be a horrible uproar, and the end result might actually be the disbanding of current units with ethnic charters. It would be a sad day when units were forced to lay up their colours for this reason, sacrificed on the alter of political correctness. Let everyone who wants to join, meet the standards and carry on the fine traditions of the last century.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2004, 20:44:52 »
Being a first generation Chinese, i think this is a EXCELLENT idea. I've always had a dream that someday i'll raise my own reg't, however unlikely.
I'm sure many people feel different, but i believe having our own unit gives us all something to take pride in.  :salute:
If there was a Chinese regiment, i would definately join, and i know many others who would. Especially if it perpetuates the RHKR(V)

Offline pbi

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2004, 22:53:13 »
The whole argument that is going on in Britain right now about disbandment of Regiments is all about distinctness and tribal identities. It is why the British Army could effectively combine Royalist (Guards Regiments) and Government (County Regiments), English, Welsh, Scots Lowlanders and Scots Highlanders and even Gurkhas. It is why the also incorporate and operate with Sikhs, Pathans, Pushtuns, Punjabis, Gujarattis, Persians and even Omani and Jordanian Arabs.


Kirkhill: I think I know what you're driving at, but I'm not sure that the recent amalgamations in the British Army are quite as sweeping as all that. I do not know of any case in which a Household unit (Foot Guards or Household Cavalry) have been merged with a County unit, nor English units with Scots, nor Gurkha with anybody else. Do you mean merger or just different units serving alongside each other? As for the Indian tribes you listed, I think that in the British Army they were kept fairly well segregated by tribe. To a certain extent this remains the case in the armies of the sub-continent today.

Quote
Uniformity of purpose and command doesn't have to mean sameness, nor even blandness. It might be useful and instructive if Canada did field a Sikh Unit or a Muslim unit where the membership was one of choice and not exclusion. ie anybody could join, regardless of background, just because they liked the Regimental "Culture". Hence we have Chinese in Scots Regiments because the like the kilt, the pipes, Robert Burns and haggis.....OK maybe the haggis stretching a point.

The trouble with the first two examples is that they are not merely "ethnic" but are actually very distinct religious groups as well. You could not separate the religious aspect from the units or the designation would be meaningless. Unfortunately, forming units alomg these lines would be equivalent to having "Roman Catholic" or "Anglican" -designated units: a non-starter. The Highland, Scots and Irish regimental traditions seem to be flexible enough that anybody can feel a comfortable part of the Regt: my Portuguese-Canadian cousin is in the 48th Highlanders, for example.  I agree with your contention that a unit (especially a unit Mess) should feel like a "home" and not just a "job", but I think we might want to stress the "family"  rather than the "tribe" aspect. Cheers.
 
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2004, 23:09:30 »
If you founded your regiment, would I be welcome to join?

I feel the best answer to the question that started the thread is:
If we were to raise new units, rather than basing them on ethnic origin with associated "funny dress", they would probably be based on function - Light Infantry, Mountain Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armoured Recce, Airborne, etc. and I suspect their name would be associated with their function, or some traditional monicker (ie Foresters) based on location of the regiment also.   Yorkton Light Infantry, Cranbrooke Foresters, Banff and Canmore Alpine Regiment....

I'll see you in the mess of the Royal Highland Heavy Artillery (Dismounted).
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2004, 00:28:51 »
(Dismounted).

I suspect in a few very short years, that designation will be a "given" and quite superfluous.  ;)

I still recall being on a practice field at the Guards Depot in 1990, chatting with a Royal Tank Regiment corporal piper.  Silly me, being a 20 year old private, asked him if all the battalions of the RTR had tanks.

"Of course," he replied.  "Do you mean there are are tank regiments in Canada without tanks?"

"Most of them...." I could only reply....

Quote
Royal Highland Heavy Artillery

Highland Alpine Heavy Artillery has a better ring to it - I can see the combat title and brass shoulder titles now...

« Last Edit: October 22, 2004, 00:38:07 by Michael Dorosh »
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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2004, 00:40:31 »
HAHA ;D haha indeed!

Online Chris Pook

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2004, 02:36:57 »
Quote
Quote from: Kirkhill on Yesterday at 17:39:51
The whole argument that is going on in Britain right now about disbandment of Regiments is all about distinctness and tribal identities. It is why the British Army could effectively combine Royalist (Guards Regiments) and Government (County Regiments), English, Welsh, Scots Lowlanders and Scots Highlanders and even Gurkhas. It is why the also incorporate and operate with Sikhs, Pathans, Pushtuns, Punjabis, Gujarattis, Persians and even Omani and Jordanian Arabs.



Kirkhill: I think I know what you're driving at, but I'm not sure that the recent amalgamations in the British Army are quite as sweeping as all that. I do not know of any case in which a Household unit (Foot Guards or Household Cavalry) have been merged with a County unit, nor English units with Scots, nor Gurkha with anybody else. Do you mean merger or just different units serving alongside each other? As for the Indian tribes you listed, I think that in the British Army they were kept fairly well segregated by tribe. To a certain extent this remains the case in the armies of the sub-continent today.


Poorly explained on my part pbi.  In one sense you are correct,  the Household Regiments are not being amalgamated with the Counties, nor English with Scots.  No the "tribalism" I was referring to was Edinburgh's Royal Scots being pitted against the Kings Own Scottish Borderers for example.  The recruiting pools for these two regiments are adjacent to each other and Edinburgh is only about 50 miles from the English Border that the KOSB's were raised to guard.  Unfortunately the locals can recognize folks from the adjacent recruitment area because they talk differently.  Different dialects - different tribes.  That's the tribalism I was talking about.  The same problem exists in England.  Devonshire isn't Cornwall much less Northumberland.

The Regiments have traditionally allowed local regional and county identities to flourish.  In Scotland the intention is to create one Regiment (possibly even called the Royal Scots) but the current 1 Bn regiments will become subordinate to the Regiment and most critically could be filled by bodies from any place in Scotland.  Strangely enough it seems that Fijians are better accepted in an Edinburgh regiment than Glaswegians (folks from Glasgow).

The suggestion with respect to the Household Division is similar, they are all to become battalions in a Household Regiment it seems, and in that case you might, horror of horrors, find an Englishman in the Scots Guards.  Actually I believe there are some there already but its the principle of the thing.

As to your point about keeping the peoples of the sub-continent segregated, that is actually the point I was trying to make.  Keep in mind that the "quaint" regimental characteristics so often found in Canadian regiments, especially the Militia originated in British regiments.  Those British Regiments reflected the regional characteristics of their personnel .  Often those Regiments were incorporated into the British Army after some rebellion or civil war or other.  It was a means of keeping all those warlike impulses in line.  The Highlanders rebel?  Recruit them into the Black Watch and the Fraser Highlanders and send them off to North America to die fighting the French and the Indians.

The Regimental system allowed the British Army to manage "diversity"

Quote
Quote
Uniformity of purpose and command doesn't have to mean sameness, nor even blandness. It might be useful and instructive if Canada did field a Sikh Unit or a Muslim unit where the membership was one of choice and not exclusion. ie anybody could join, regardless of background, just because they liked the Regimental "Culture". Hence we have Chinese in Scots Regiments because the like the kilt, the pipes, Robert Burns and haggis.....OK maybe the haggis stretching a point.


The trouble with the first two examples is that they are not merely "ethnic" but are actually very distinct religious groups as well. You could not separate the religious aspect from the units or the designation would be meaningless. Unfortunately, forming units alomg these lines would be equivalent to having "Roman Catholic" or "Anglican" -designated units: a non-starter. The Highland, Scots and Irish regimental traditions seem to be flexible enough that anybody can feel a comfortable part of the Regt: my Portuguese-Canadian cousin is in the 48th Highlanders, for example.  I agree with your contention that a unit (especially a unit Mess) should feel like a "home" and not just a "job", but I think we might want to stress the "family"  rather than the "tribe" aspect. Cheers.

Actually, it was only after the World War 2 that religious affiliation wasn't a consideration in Scottish Regiments.  Lowland Regiments were almost uniformly Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) while some of the Highland Regiments were predominantly RC.  And those distinctions mattered.  The still matter - just ask the Celtic (RC) and Rangers (Presbyterian) fans.  In fact the Cameronians, (not to be confused with the Cameron Highlanders) were raised during Scotland's religious wars specifically to defend the oppressed Presbyterians in the Southwest . They were oppressed by "Bonnie Dundee" of pipe tune fame.  In my neck of the woods he was known as "Bloody Claverhouse"

I agree that Regiments need to be open and that we should stress family over tribe.  My point was that Regiments were a method of managing tribalism until the rough edges could be smoothed off and the Regiment started thinking of themselves as being related to the people in another Regiment with whom they had been feuding for centuries.  In some cases that smoothing process has taken centuries and fighting together in a number of wars against others - non Brits..  Despite that I am sure the Black Watch (raised by the Campbell's) could still find a reason for a punch up with the Highlanders or the Dukes.

The Regiments are, or were, individual entities that still feel discrete despite the fact that they are all Army and all Brits and quite willing to support each other when fighting together.

IMHO.

Waters thoroughly muddied now...?

Cheers pbi.
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Offline pbi

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2004, 03:04:49 »
Kirkhill: OK, seen. Cheers.
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Offline WEAPON(Banned)

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2004, 05:07:52 »
Indian or Chiness? are you INSANE?????????????????????????????????????????????

There is no way I would serve in a Chinesse or Indian Regiment. This topic should be locked and Deleted.  :skull:
We have Irish and Scotish regiments, because they are part of the UK, and as you know the Queen rules over Scotland, and N Ireland. So unless Tony Blair takes over China or Inida, we will not have Indian or Chinesse regiments............


GOD I wish ppl would think before posting crap up. :rage:

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2004, 10:29:58 »
Indian or Chiness? are you INSANE?????????????????????????????????????????????

There is no way I would serve in a Chinesse or Indian Regiment. This topic should be locked and Deleted.   :skull:
We have Irish and Scotish regiments, because they are part of the UK, and as you know the Queen rules over Scotland, and N Ireland. So unless Tony Blair takes over China or Inida, we will not have Indian or Chinesse regiments............


GOD I wish ppl would think before posting crap up. :rage:
then of course we'd be left without your engaging repartee

Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2004, 10:35:54 »

 then of course we'd be left without your engaging repartee

Touche!!!

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Offline pbi

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2004, 10:36:28 »
Indian or Chiness? are you INSANE?????????????????????????????????????????????

There is no way I would serve in a Chinesse or Indian Regiment. This topic should be locked and Deleted.   :skull:
We have Irish and Scotish regiments, because they are part of the UK, and as you know the Queen rules over Scotland, and N Ireland. So unless Tony Blair takes over China or Inida, we will not have Indian or Chinesse regiments............


GOD I wish ppl would think before posting crap up. :rage:

Do you   ever, ever, think before hitting the keyboard? Just look at your silly post. It is a mess of spelling mistakes, disjointed sentence structure and meaningless rubbish. This kind of post adds absolutely nothing to the board, amd merely serves to expose you to ridicule by everybody here. And, worse, this is not the first time you have cluttered this board with your inane ramblings: you are getting to be quite well known as a shyte peddler. Smarten up or go elsewhere. No cheers for you.
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

The true measure of a man is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out...

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2004, 11:02:01 »
Indian or Chiness? are you INSANE?????????????????????????????????????????????

There is no way I would serve in a Chinesse or Indian Regiment. This topic should be locked and Deleted.   :skull:
We have Irish and Scotish regiments, because they are part of the UK, and as you know the Queen rules over Scotland, and N Ireland. So unless Tony Blair takes over China or Inida, we will not have Indian or Chinesse regiments............


GOD I wish ppl would think before posting crap up. :rage:

I think you forget that India and Pakistan are both commonwealth countries and until the takeover by the Chinese, Hong Kong was also a British Territory.  If you look at the historical record there were many ethnically raised units within the British Empire and Commonwealth that served proudly in the line.

I don't understand your reference to Tony Blair?  The Queen reigns as the sovereign in Canada through a separate leadership chain that doesn't include the British parliament.

Just out of curiosity, what regiment do you currently serve with?  What experience and knowledge do you bring to the table? 

I find it hard to take you seriously when you launch into a rant like this without knowing your background.

Offline pbi

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2004, 11:09:11 »
WEAPON

Quote
"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity."

Sound familiar?
The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. ...

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Offline Danjanou

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2004, 11:25:44 »
Indian or Chiness? are you INSANE?????????????????????????????????????????????

There is no way I would serve in a Chinesse or Indian Regiment. This topic should be locked and Deleted.   :skull:
We have Irish and Scotish regiments, because they are part of the UK, and as you know the Queen rules over Scotland, and N Ireland. So unless Tony Blair takes over China or Inida, we will not have Indian or Chinesse regiments............


GOD I wish ppl would think before posting crap up. :rage:

Fortunately based on what we've seen here I doubt you'll ever get the chance, not that they'd want you.
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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2004, 14:28:50 »
GOD I wish ppl would think before posting crap up. :rage:

Perhaps you would care to demonstate, since your personal brand of invective certainly fails to set an example of good forum conduct or worthy contribution to the threads being discussed.


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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2004, 15:57:28 »
You might wish to consider that the raison d'être of the regimental system â “ which an overwhelming majority of Canadian Army officers and senior NCOs still cherish and believe must be retained â “ was to exploit the ethnic, linguistic and regional differences[/b] and tensions which existed â “ especially amongst the Scots and the English in the 18th century and amongst all of the Indians.

The need for distinct, ethnically defined regiments in the Indian Army (both British Indian Army and the East India Company's army) was obvious â “ many groups of Indians hated one another worse than any outsiders.   Even British regiments, like the Cameronian guard (formed in about 1700) (later the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)) were created to avoid murderous religious disputes in the ranks â “ as between the covenanters and the hated C&E and Roman folks.

It is highly unlikely, given the French fact that we Canadian have any practical alternative to some form of the regimental system â “ the Australian model is, probably, not for us.

While I, personally and generally, oppose Canadian regiments which are formed on any ethnic base other than (official) language I wonder about allowing (a) (some) regiment(s) to adopt some aboriginal customs and traditions, for example.   The Kiwis have gone some way towards making Maori customs part of the Army's and Navy's customs.

Suppose that in an area where many, many minority groups live members of one such group joined one local militia regiment in great number.   Would in be somehow offensive if that group added some 'spice' to our customs and traditions â “ maybe with some 'new' dining in night customs or a different regimental band?
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Online Chris Pook

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2004, 20:28:02 »
Couldn't agree with you more ROJ. 

You know a Canadian Arab Legion would look pretty smart in a Green and White head cloth.   I wonder what the Regimental Quick  March would be?

Cheers.   

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2004, 07:50:24 »
I dont want to get sucked into this but ......

WEAPON

 STFU  :rage: and think before you speak. Go back to school, if you get the chance take world history.

Please dont grace us with your ignorance again.   :threat:



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Offline Michael Dorosh

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2004, 10:30:18 »
I dont want to get sucked into this but ......

WEAPON

 STFU  :rage: and think before you speak. Go back to school, if you get the chance take world history.

Please dont grace us with your ignorance again.   :threat:





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Offline PARAMEDIC

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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2004, 07:03:35 »
sorry to fly off the the handle and

Thankyou
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Re: Indian or Chinese Regiment
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2004, 07:09:38 »
Hey we have enough trouble with Multi Cult on Civie street with out bringing it into the Military. >:(
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