Author Topic: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units  (Read 57686 times)

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Offline MCG

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2004, 18:48:25 »
Before we launch into a bun fight, I think it is safe to say that nobody here has information to show that the QOR produces soldiers that are individually better, on-par, or lesser than other reserve units.   I cannot compare their soldiering, and I cannot compare their ethos to reserve infantry in general.   If anyone really feels the need to know, maybe you can find statistics showing pass/fail rates by course in LFCA as a percentage of soldiers sent on course.   You could look up results of summary trials.     . . . but again, would this prove anything?

Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering.  It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits.

Offline MikeM

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2004, 19:09:26 »
Just thought that I might add, the QOR had the highest amount of soldiers in the top positions (1st,2nd ,3rd) on courses during ARC 2004 in Meaford this past summer.

Offline ABN RFN

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2004, 19:21:26 »
In reply to "Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering.  It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits." , I would have to wholeheartedly agree with McG. There should be more. Why have a unit with a para tasking when you can have a para unit? <---reference countless other threads on this topic. Funny how almost any post on anything para always comes back to that. We just won't let it go!  ;D
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Offline pbi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2004, 20:51:29 »
Ahhh-bossi the iconoclast! Now you've done it! Better roll out those statistics or you'll go down under a maroon wave of indignation!

Cheers.
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Offline MCG

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2004, 20:56:36 »
In reply to "Regardless, I do not think that a parachute tasking confined within one unit provides reserve wide benefits to improve basic soldiering. It does not even provide brigade wide or city wide benefits." , I would have to wholeheartedly agree with McG. There should be more. Why have a unit with a para tasking when you can have a para unit?
I don't see a reserve parachute unit having an impact on soldiering across the reserves either (neither positive nor negative).

Offline Blindspot

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2004, 21:50:59 »
Wow - you actually base your assessment of military competence on a TV program - that's awesome

Assessing military competence? No. It was an idle musing on your obvious, personal dislike of the regiment. Perhaps I could have left out a couple of adjectives to save you from feeling insulted.

(and I'm presuming you meant to type "disgruntled"?).

Yes, thank you.

Hmmm ... let me think.   Is the topic of this thread "Tor Scots"?   No?   Then maybe the norms I've described pertain to those QORs I've encountered who wore a maroon beret ... since they're relevant to this thread.

But you've slurred the entire QOR based on a couple of examples, one of which was written in a signature on a forum and because they wore a maroon beret. If these were your worst examples than I believe all that does is attest to an angelic nature of the regiment. I could produce examples just as bad if not worse perpetrated by members of other regiments who do not have jump companies. Does that mean they're a bunch of backstabbers and undisciplined louts?

Perhaps "effective strength" wasn't described in Sharpe.

Perhaps I missed that episode.


Yup, but I was pointing out that the QOR have more than their fair share of blades.

And you have more irrefutable evidence to support this statement I presume. My guess is it's just conjecture.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2004, 21:55:20 by Blindspot »
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Offline Acorn

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2004, 23:26:28 »
Reserve units have no business being "para tasked." It's a waste of resources, and the positive effect on recruiting is too local to be of any value.

It just gives 21-year-old Militia rats reason to pop attitude on guys who have the t-shirts.

How's that for iconoclastic?

Acorn
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Offline MCG

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2004, 23:51:05 »
. . . and parachute tasked units absorb all the reserve basic para positions that rightfully could be shared across the country (with possible nation wide recruiting value).

Offline chrisp1j

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2004, 00:23:28 »
Lets not get in a pissing contest here, its pretty obvious that most of what has been said here cannot be backed up... oh, except for the fact that the QOR pretty much tops every course and places extremely well in all that its personnel are involved in. Lay off the baseless regiment knocking and cheap shots, as look at the mess it has started in this otherwise informative thread.

On to new things:

â Å“. . and parachute tasked units absorb all the reserve basic para positions that rightfully could be shared across the country (with possible nation wide recruiting value).â ?

I like that idea. I think that every-time the CPC needs jumpers to keep the pilots and support elements current, we should be contacting every regiment in Canada, to request jumpers, and flying them from Middleofnowhere Canada to Trenton, 3 days before the jumps (because we have to have CPC staff ensure that they are current because we all know that even their brigade doesn't have the ability or resources to make them current or keep them current).

Lets decentralize things a little more, and hire new personnel to organize it for us.

Oh, and a quick question: â Å“rightfullyâ ?? since when does any person or unit have rights in the military. Yes you have the right to have two pairs of boots (though they wont guarantee a correct fit), but past that, life isn't as fair as the term â Å“rightfullyâ ? would lead one to believe.

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Offline MCG

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2004, 00:35:56 »
Then share the courses with all the units in the "Golden Horseshoe" and still get an improved recruiting/retention tool that is not limited to one unit.

I think that every-time the CPC needs jumpers to keep the pilots and support elements current, we should be contacting every regiment in Canada, to request jumpers, and flying them from Middleofnowhere Canada to Trenton, 3 days before the jumps (because we have to have CPC staff ensure that they are current because we all know that even their brigade doesn't have the ability or resources to make them current or keep them current).
Or, we could offer up more refresher jumps to personel from the three regular force light battalions, and those personel in other units that are expected to support those jump companies.

since when does any person ... have rights in the military.
Every person has rights.  It's a Canadian thing.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2004, 00:42:16 by McG »

Offline chrisp1j

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2004, 00:49:13 »
Your right, people have rights in the military, and I demonstrated that: we all get boots. No one has the "right" to take a jump course. You just have to get it if you can.

As far as sharing with all the units in the area, well, it reminds me of how much I want a demolitions course, or a combat diver's course, or-well we all know where that one is going.
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Offline MCG

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2004, 01:12:47 »
Look at it this way then, if a reserve Engr has those courses and augments an overseas tour, then he can do refresher training with his BG and may use those skills overseas (this is an MOC thing, not a unit specific thing). 

The Basic Parachute course is not MOC specific.  Infantry, Cbt Engr, Sig, Medic, etc all can be employed on a parachute operation.  If a guy from the RHLI is para qualified and augments an overseas tour, then he can do refresher training with his BG and could jump operationally.  No different than a QOR guy.

But, so as to not offend your sensibilities for being denied combat diver, what if we were to spread the basic para positions amongst the infantry of the â Å“Golden Horseshoeâ ? area?

Offline Infanteer

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2004, 03:15:15 »
This thread is stupid.

People here have their panties bunched up over jumping out of a plane (don't worry, I've done it) that they seem to be forgetting that it's what's done on the ground that counts.

Tell me, all ye part-time disciples of Bellerophon, when is the last time your unit has been required to perform an Airborne drop?  What does wearing a different coloured hat and getting to show off a tee shirt really have to do with militia soldiering - which admittedly is meat-and-potato basics.

Giving reservist Infantry types jump training is like giving a reservist crewman an M-1 Abrahms gunnery course - real snazzy but probably not very useful to the career of a reservist soldier.

Personally, I'd rather see the money saved from giving Jump Courses to reservists - with the only real output being another thingy that guys can put on their DEU's for Parades - go towards developing skill sets more pertinant to the realities of the Reserves.  If we want to put money towards courses to reward switched on soldiers, I would prefer something along these lines:

---

THE CANADIAN COMMANDO COURSE

Capt J.L. Binns

The Army is suffering a moral crisis. It is losing it's "combat mindset", that outlook of the profession that sets it apart from the rest of society. Combat mindset is the way of thinking that causes leaders to ask "will this make my unit more capable of defeating the enemy" or "Will my soldiers be tougher?" as opposed to what will this do to my career? or why bother, anyone can be uncomfortable". Indications that a combat mindset exists are
intense interest in weapons, and tactics, physical Fitness, combat survival and adventure training. Minor injuries are considered part of training, experimentation with methods and tools to defeat the enemy is encouraged and physical luxuries in the field are seen as weakness.

If the current decline in combativeness is not reversed quickly the army will soon be little more than a police force. One step toward instilling combat mindset into the corporate body of the army is to establish a school with the sole purpose of training soldiers mentally, physically and technically for close combat. I propose that the Army establish a "Commando Course" for this purpose.

AIM

The aim of the Commando Course shall he to indoctrinate soldiers with A combat mindset
and improving the armies ability to right. It will achieve it's goal by.

a.Instilling combat mindset through rigorous indoctrination,
b.Vigorous training in close combat and covert mobility,
c.Creating a big desired qualification to improve morale,
d.Motivating soldiers to prepare themselves for a challenging course,
e.Creating a test bed for infantry weapons, equipment and tactics.
f.Creating a cadre of highly trained irregular warfare instructors.

SCOPE

The course will be based on the World War 2 Commando Course run at Achnacarry,
Scotland. It is not a version of SAS selection, the U.S. Army Ranger program or Special Forces courses. It is a course in how to right. It is a combat skills course not a leadership course nor a unit selection device.

The course would be six weeks long and would be based at the CTC. It would he open to
any trained combat or combat support arm soldier who could pass the pre-course physical fitness test. Which would consist of the current combat swim test with all times and distances doubled, the 13,78 km battle fitness test in 1 hr 45 min minutes, 8 palm down pull ups and a bench press of the candidates body weight. Candidates would also have to fire the infantry PWT to marksman and complete all tests of elementary training on rifle platoon weapons and the pistol within 3 months of attending the Commando School.

The course would last 45 days (39 training, 3 admin, 2 travel days). Each training day
would consist of 16 training hours. The course content (with the percentage of course time devoted to each and approximate hours) would consist of the following:

a. Close Quarter Battle with small arms including training with pistols, M203, flame-throwers, jungle lanes, room clearing, night fighting, expedient weapons and unarmed combat (15.51/ol 97 hours).

b. Demolitions using issue, expedient and foreign explosives (12,5%/78 hours).

c. Combat Survival including resistance to interrogation and counter tracking dog techniques (14.5%/90 hours).

d. Watermanship including combat swimming and the use of assault and recce boats (6%/ 37 hours).

e. Mountaineering (19%/ 118 hours).

f. Combat Medicine including IVs, CPR, practical gunshot treatment and drug administration (2.5%1 16 hours).

g. Foreign Weapons including training on all Russian company level small arms, RPGs and automatic grenade launchers, G3, MG-31, M-60, SA-80, Steyr AUG, MPS, FNC1' and FAMAS Fl.(10%1 62 hours).

h. Live Fire Tactics including bunker,, building and trench clearing, section and platoon ambushes, attacks and counter ambush drills (12.5%/ 78 hours).

i. Helicopter Operations including ILZ marking, rappelling and fast roping. (3%/ 19 hours)

j. Tank Hunting with M72, RPG-7, V, mines and expedient weapons (4.50 %/ 28 hours).

k. Battle Indoctrination including close work with artillery, demolitions and gas (1%/ 6 hours).

l. Physical Training including cross country speed marches and assault courses (15%1 93 hours).


The course would he broken down into a number of phases:

Phase 1 (2 weeks)

Combat survival, mountaineering, watermanship, combat medicine

Phase 2 (2 weeks)

Demolitions, weapons, close' quarter battle, tank hunting, helicopter operations.

Phase 3 (2 weeks)

Weapons, demolitions, live fire tactics, battle indoctrination.

The school should have a number of foreign subject matter experts on staff to help ensure that the curriculum is first rate. Canadian staff would be expected to he graduates of Allied "combat" schools and would receive intensive preparation training over the course of a year. Classes would he based on platoons of 36 students. Five to six classes would be taught annually. The stringent entrance requirements will keep intake low. Staff would fill all platoon and section command slots on tactical exercises with students acting as team leaders. Safety distances would have to he modified by approximately 50 % to increase
realism. The number of safety staff required would need to be reduced as would the need
for special identification or rules preventing them from fitting in with the unit, for example prohibitions on the safety staff from camming up And carrying weapons. The ration scale and accommodation would be austere. There would be few amenities at the school. Students would train for war for six weeks and nothing else. The final exercise would consist of a platoon live fire air assault supported by artillery and attack helicopters followed by an attack on a bunker complex using demolitions, M72, M203 and flame throwers. Preferably, the requirement to climb a cliff could he fitted somewhere into the scenario.

On successful completion of the course the graduates would receive a ornate metallic
badge, similar to those awarded for the French Commando Courses, to be worn on dress
uniforms and DEUs and a subdued "Commando" flash to be worn on combat.

CONCLUSION

The establishment of the Commando School just might save the Army by stopping the rot.
It would mold the minds of junior leaders and, slowly rill units with tough combat trained soldiers with the correct combat mindset. Ideally in the future it would be expected that an infantry officer or sergeant major will have graduated from the Commando School and similar intensive training would become the norm throughout the Army.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline bossi

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2004, 07:45:43 »
... We obviously have two VERY different points of view on the matter...

It's encouraging to see the fighting spirit of the QOR soldier remains undiminished - certainly, I've never once run across an unsatisfactory QOR pte or cpl - never.  And, as I've been reminded, it wasn't the ptes or cpls who hired the stripper for the mess, nor did they foul up vis-a-vis DWI, or fiscal mismanagement (in fact, they've been the whistle-blowers on more than one occasion).
However, the difference between individual augmentees at the soldier level and a formed coy lies in the upper echelon.

As with many other reserve units these days, there is a steady drain upon units when they continually lose good "draft picks" to the Regular Force or civilian careers - I'm sure the QOR loses their fair share of young soldiers to component transfers or civvie job offers, but this hurts the top of the pyramid.

Perhaps in the long run the systemic difficulties can be overcome by the infusion of incoming transfers (e.g. the new CO brings experience from The Watch and elsewhere, and a previous CO was RHLI), thus perhaps expanding the gene pool - numerous papers on organisational behaviour suggest this is the quickest if not surest way to reverse downwards spirals in systemic/institutional self-selection (i.e. "good leaders select good recruits, and unfortunately vice versa - e.g. 'yes men' hire more 'yes men' ..." - I'll dig up some titles/authors when I've got a minute, but right now I've got to look after the next generation).
Junior officers and NCOs who neglect to guide the thinking of their men are shirking a command responsibility.
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Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others. If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts. Of this you should take heed.
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Offline Mr. Ted

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2004, 13:10:32 »
Odd that anything para related strikes such a chord, both positive and negative, during discussions around the Canadian Military.  I believe we are all suffering a resource-defecit here - deep down we believe the resources available to the forces are so limited these days that we can't stand the thought of any being misspent.  These disucssions take on a sharper tone around times of new budget announcements, changes in government, and milita white-paper publications.

Should a para tasking exist in the reserves?  Should any specialty exist in the reserves?  Should any real warfighting skills be taught in the reserves? Are these not different branches of the same argument! 

The argument is this - how relevant are the reserves?  Are they a stand alone force that may be called upon?  If so, what's wrong with one of them being para-tasked?  Are they augmentees to a regular force?  If so, what's the point of them being para-tasked?  Are they  a framework around which to hang mobilization if the need arose?

I believe we may be arguing right past each other here as deep down, everyone probably has a slightly different perspective on what the reserves actually exist to do.  That question is asked every year and opinions vary wildly.

Should Britain maintain 4PARA?  Should the US retain a Marine Corps reserve element?  Are Marines not shock troops, trained to a higher degree than their Army counterparts, whose training and edge over other forces erodes if not maintained to a fevored pitch?  So why are there thousands of Marine reservists in existence who parade only once a month?

What about the fact that within the Army National Guard, our American cousins maintain 3 or 4 Special Forces groups?  Special Forces part time, what a concept.  The Navy, in the early 90's added SEAL teams to the Naval Reserve. 

Maybe that's the difference - these units are mostly comprised of former regular - force members who semi-retire from active duty yet want to retain a connection to their original unit and maintaining their reserve status is a win-win situation for the forces as well as the indiviudal.

So here goes - should the QOR be a para reserve unit essentially filled by former reg force paras who want to maintain a connection to their unit, yet at a part - time level?  Or, in a world of larger budgets, could it be much more than that?

Mr. Ted
Veritas Omnia Vincit

Offline chrisp1j

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2004, 21:28:33 »
MCG:
Quote
"But, so as to not offend your sensibilities for being denied combat diver,"
Thanks (chuckles).

Quote
"what if we were to spread the basic para positions amongst the infantry of the â Å“Golden Horseshoeâ ? area?"

The only problem I see with that, is the same that I have mentioned before. To keep the guys current requires a substantial amount of resources. At the armoury, we have equpment that allows us to keep the guys current, and its a simple matter of grabbing a JM, and having him put you through the test on a Weds. (done as part of regular training, so nothing needs to be coordinated as far as hiring a bus, etc.) before a jump.

Our role right now is to support the CPC, so making their life more complicated, would mean we have failed in our task. If keeping guys current was simpler, that idea would be more feasible, but it really is a matter of logistics. Is there a simpler way around it? Probably not, but feel free to brainstorm and shoot out ideas.

[Moderator note:  Typographical edit only - excessive "white space" removed - no content altered]
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 16:14:22 by bossi »
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Offline Mr. Ted

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2004, 15:41:49 »
Quote - So here goes - should the QOR be a para reserve unit essentially filled by former reg force paras who want to maintain a connection to their unit, yet at a part - time level?  Or, in a world of larger budgets, could it be much more than that? - Endquote

Any more opinions? I can't believe we've exhausted this yet!

Mr. Ted
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Offline chrisp1j

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2004, 22:20:47 »
If a jumper from the regs wanted to be in the military after his regular force time, wanted to jump, wanted to live in Toronto, and had the time to commit to the reserve, he's probably already in. There just aren't enough guys to support that.

In a world of larger budgets (and it would have to be pretty substantial), then there would be more former regular force in the reserve, because there would be more former regular force.
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Offline MCG

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2004, 23:48:38 »
Any more opinions? I can't believe we've exhausted this yet!

1) A 32 Bde Para Coy that draws from all the 32 Bde units (not just one).

2) Use members of the regular force parachute companies to support CPC skill maintenance (hell, I have no doubt that 3 VP would love more chances to jump from Hercs instead of repeatedly using Griffons).  Nice thing about the aircraft is that they can fly to the soldiers.

3) Use Basic Para courses to Sp skill maintenance & JM trg (this is not thinking outside the box, this is actually done).

Offline MoOx

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2004, 02:47:39 »
A jump tasking can be a real mixed blessing for a Militia unit. Back in the Stone Age, when I was in the Loyal Eddies' jump platoon, I recall the morale was quite strong, and most of the the troops in the platoon were fairly switched on. But I also recall the odd individual who seemed more interested in showing up for cas para days than in jumping into exercise in, say, Wainwright or the Arctic. These guys (definitely in the minority) didn't stick around for very long, once they discovered that the basic para course was just the easiest part of the deal. And there were also a lot of pretty good troops in the "leg" platoon who, for whatever reason, never took a jump course.
Anyway, the regiment didn't fall apart when we went back to wearing green berets (94?95?), although it did smart a bit at first. Nobody stopped driving the body on ex, and nobody started being a plug.
That said, whatever the tactical rationale for para capability nowadays, its value as a morale-builder is indisputable.

Offline KevinB

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2004, 02:53:10 »
2) Use members of the regular force parachute companies to support CPC skill maintenance (heck, I have no doubt that 3 VP would love more chances to jump from Hercs instead of repeatedly using Griffons).   Nice thing about the aircraft is that they can fly to the soldiers.

Or other jump qualified reg force pers in operational units that cant get jumps...

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Offline MCG

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2004, 02:57:49 »
Or other jump qualified reg force pers in operational units that cant get jumps...
Hey, that would be me!
I support Kevin's proposal.

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2004, 03:03:42 »
Join the club - my roomate (a LER) got two jumpr pre Christmas (one a Night jump too) while we got NADA...

 I guess the 1km from 3VP to 1VP was to tough for us to negotiate  ::)
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Offline IPC10

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2004, 11:13:33 »
I was under the impression, and this impression was coming from CPC, that the key reason behind the QOR jump tasking was to support training at CPC.

Not some behind the door method of delivery course to augment the Reg Force.

It's not like the 'old days' when the LERs had a tasking, and I think the Westies also, its a geographical support one.

Then again CPC also wanted hard jump positions in the arty, engrs, medics....


Offline ABN RFN

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Re: QOR Para Coy & parachute tasking reserve sub-units
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2004, 13:31:40 »
Officially the QOR is tasked to provide 66 Jumpers to support the CPC. Instead of simply wasting a jump on a BTAT or LTAT by jumping bare *** and going home, we exploit the opportunity to train our over 100 jumpers in the Airborne role and maintain the Airborne capability in our Regiment. Our original tasking was to support 3CDO and although the official tasking has changed since the disbandment, our approach has not. We take every opportunity to cross train with the 3RCR Para Coy in order to augment and update our capabilities and most of our Airborne training regimen and SOP's are adopted from them (as they were in the past from 3CDO). The unit still runs an extensive program of all the essential Airborne specific training previously associated with courses like the AIC and has specific qualification requirements for awarding the White wings, maroon beret etc. I believe this keeps the Airborne spirit very much alive and well in the QOR in terms of fierce competitiveness and the drive to be the best. There is much, much more to it than having a jump tasking to be just cas para for the CPC. Although our training schedule and tempo is quite admittedly limited by the fact that we are Reserve Force and could never match the extensive training program of the reg force, I think people often forget the depth of personnel resources that are present in the QOR Para Coy. We have a large number of Jumpers in key positions that bring their experience and expertise from previously serving in the Regs, in the CAR etc. Our unit has Pathfinders, JM's, P.I's etc etc etc. We are not your 'run-of-the-mill' Reserve Regt that simply get to jump more than others.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2004, 13:44:59 by ABN RFN »
You Call, We Fall - Ex Coelis AIRBORNE!