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Offline Infanteer

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Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« on: October 08, 2003, 20:03:00 »
Alright sappers, I‘ve been trying to figure out how an Engineer Regiement is broken down in terms of organization.  Is it something similar to the infantry with equal breakdowns at all levels, or are sub-units organized around specializations (the odd collection of vehicles you guys have leads me to this idea)  Thanks for any info

Chimo (From a confused grunt)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 14:09:50 by kratz »
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2003, 05:16:00 »
Well if we told you we would have to kill you   ;)  
That‘s why yous lot know nothing about us!!

All joking aside.

A Fld Sqn  = 1 Hq. troop + 3 Fld Troop‘s + Park Troop = 200 all rank‘s
 
(A troop in the real world is about 40 all rank‘s peace time but can grow on battle strength)

Each Troop has it‘s own I.C which is a Lt. and H.Q. ect, you get the drift now? (platoon)

Park Troop(Support) which has all the heavy equipment and rafting and bridging kit and engineer resources (field defence store‘s,mines etc.), plus combat diver‘s and kit

In a regiment mulitiply by 3 to 4 Sqn.‘s = 500 men in peace time if we had the money!!
(perfect cenario  :D  )

Right now I believe 1 C.E.R. is just below 400 men because of the over tasking‘s due to Field Ex‘s because after Bosnia and Croatia our Army realise‘s OHHH! that‘s what they are for so the guy‘s have to go on every Field Ex. in Wain.  with in a month after coming home off tour.
Yes it happen‘s!!!

I don‘t blame them either the life of a Sapper is hard but the having to come home and being told your back in the field after 6 month‘s can pee you off!

Right now in the Force‘s the Engineer‘s has the lowest retention rate amonsgt all arm‘s!!

You asked.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2003, 12:19:00 »
Thanks.

One more question.  Is there an engineering sub-unit that deals with "other" duties.  When we were in Bihac, we had a whole bunch of engineers come down with excavators, packers, and backhoes to help with camp construction.  Would these guys be attached to RHQ?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2003, 19:57:00 »
What I think you are refering to is what we call Heavy Troop i.e. the heavy equipment operator‘s which contain‘s everything from Dump Truck‘s,Grader‘s,Dozer‘s etc.,also the Beaver and Badger(Leopard chassi veriant‘s) come under Heavy as a Section and can be used along side heavy equipment.Which are Engineer trade‘s to the chargrin of 935‘s

If you go to the photo gallery I posted a photo of the Badger which has a 5 yard bucket on a telescopic arm and also a dozer blade with extension‘s for the blade.

The power plant for these Engineer Vehicle‘s is larger than the M.B.T..

Hope this help‘s clearing up some of the mysteries of us Thumper Head‘s   ;)
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Duotone81

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2003, 20:54:00 »
Spr. Earl,

So with the shortage of men in 1 CER I guess the waiting time to get in wouldn‘t be that long then right? Is their a shortage in all Regiments right now? Do Engineers undertake construction projects when not serving abroad or is it mostly training ex? Sorry for the many questions but i‘m currently a civil engineering technologist and will be applying as a combat engineer when the Landfill project i‘m working on is complete. Plus you‘re a BTDT so the advice doesn‘t get much better.

Thanks

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2003, 02:26:00 »
Duotone81,hey don‘t be sorry about your question‘s I‘ll try and answer to the best of my knowledge.

Don‘t bet on a quick in!
Yes the Engineer Regiment‘s are short of men and have been for year‘s !

 It‘s all up to the recruiter‘s,who also go by the area with in Canada were they will recruit, as dicatated by the Puzzle Palace (NDHQ)

If you live in the N.W.T. you will be in with in 3 month‘s?All depend‘s what they decide in the Puzzle Palace and were you live with in Canada!

 You having a civil engineering degree should have no problem‘s,but may I suggest,become a real Sapper first,go through the rank‘s then use your degree then become an Officer.
You having your degree they will try and make you go ocifer!!Go the RANK‘S first!!!!!!!!!!!
You will learn more!!

 Yes we do construction job‘s all over Canada and all over the world, but not at the Regiment level but if we are lucky we may get a task at Squadron level but on average it‘s at a Troop level or Section level.All the above are peace time.

Hey we never do construction training Ex.‘s.
When we go and do a conctruction job it‘s for real and to last!

 At present I‘m still a Field Engineer but attached to the Air Field Engineer‘s in a section and the unit I‘m with is all survayor‘s,plumber‘s,wood butcher‘s etc.,but I and the boy‘s still get in there and work to get the job done even though we are not R.C.A.F. but we are Army Engineers!!!!!!!!
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




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Duotone81

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2003, 15:22:00 »
Spr. Earl,

Thanks for the reply. I have a better understanding now of the overall Army Engineers role. Yeah I‘ll be going NCM and decide from their about going Officer. I don‘t have enough practical knowledge or experience to be an Engineering Officer right now. I work with guys that left school at 16 but have more working knowledge than me and are always "schooling me". Theory and text books only take you soo far in the engineering field.

But anyways thanks for the response. I‘ll have to get you a beer when I get in.

cheers

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2003, 04:25:00 »
Duotone,just a bit of advice and this apllies to all trade‘s.

"Keep your ear‘s open and your mouth shut and learn and there is no such thing as a stupid question in our Trade"

As on Civie street,you will be taught by those with whom you work with and you will be given good and bad advice and it‘s your‘s to pick and choose.

Lot‘s of Luck

UBIQUE
THE PRECEDING POST AND OTHERS MADE BY MYSELF ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS, NOT FOR REPRODUCTION, NOT FOR CUT AND PASTE OF ANY PORTION THEREOF, NO QUOTES ARE PERMITTED ELSEWHERE,ANYWHERE OTHER THAN EXCLUSIVELY IN THIS WEB FORUM.




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Offline MCG

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2004, 16:29:34 »
McG, you say the Pioneer Platoons were organized along the same lines as a Field Engineer Troop; what is the organizational stucture for these sub-sub units, are they very similar to Rifle Platoons (is: three sections and a headquarters section; heavy weapons?).

As well, I'm looking at the 20CMBG model organizational chart, perhaps you could help me in filling in some gaps.  I see:
-  3 Field Engineer Squadrons consisting of three troops each.  I take it these are the working units of the CER?
-  An admin squadron, quite clear.
-  A fourth Squadron, consisting of four troops: 1 is Eqpt, 1 is Ress, and the other two are unmarked.  What is the role of these troops in this fourth squadron?  I take it they fulfill  specialty roles within the CER.
The other two troops in the Sp Sqn are armoured troops.  However, with the exception of 4 CER, no regiment has ever had two armoured troops (and 4 CER no longer exists).  Where 20 CER has three Field Squadrons of three troops, real CERs have two squadrons of two troops.

Field Troops & Pioneer Platoons each consisted of four sections, a troop HQ (Tp Comd, Tp WO, Recce, & stores).  Sections were armed the same as a rifle section (with the exception of Eryx) and troops were armed the same as platoons (with the exception of 60 mm mortar).  Pioneer and Engineer section vehicles, small tools, and M&E loads were the same.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2004, 16:41:34 »
Ah, you found it for me.  I knew I asked this a while ago; however, the confusion still reigns.  Maybe I'll rebadge to Field Engineer.  :)

Quote
The other two troops in the Sp Sqn are armoured troops.  However, with the exception of 4 CER, no regiment has ever had two armoured troops (and 4 CER no longer exists).
 
Armoured Troops as in a troop of four MBT's?  As well, "Equipment" and "Ress" are heavy equipment squadrons?  Are these the troops that contain the bridging, etc?

Quote
Where 20 CER has three Field Squadrons of three troops, real CERs have two squadrons of two troops.
That seems to be a CF-wide trend....

Quote
Field Troops & Pioneer Platoons each consisted of four sections, a troop HQ (Tp Comd, Tp WO, Recce, & stores).  Sections were armed the same as a rifle section (with the exception of Eryx) and troops were armed the same as platoons (with the exception of 60 mm mortar).  Pioneer and Engineer section vehicles, small tools, and M&E loads were the same.
So, three engineer sections plus HQ section.  Is the recce det (in place of a Weapons Det) also responsible for NBCW, as the Pioneers were?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline MCG

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2004, 17:24:52 »
Armd Tp is two AEV & two AVLB + HQ Sect.

The Fd Tps have four Fd Sections + HQ Sect (Pioneers were the same).

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2004, 17:26:58 »
Ah, thanks for the clarification....
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2004, 21:05:49 »
Armd Tp is two AEV & two AVLB + HQ Sect.

The Fd Tps have four Fd Sections + HQ Sect (Pioneers were the same).


McG,having been out of  the loop for a few years (AEF) what's the future of our AEV's and AVLB's.
The reason I ask is because the MBT is on the way out with in our system, so where will that leave us in regards to AV's?
Where's the D&M course going to be held?Unit Level?
Also those questions that may pop up in your mind as to the future of the Engineer AV's.
Have you heard anything?
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Offline MCG

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2004, 00:57:56 »
Infanteer,
More on a real Sp Sqn: Every regular force CER has a Support Squadron which consists of heavy equipment troop, construction troop, and resource troop.  (but Constr Tp is only administratively attached in peace time and actually belongs to 4 ESR).

The Hy Eqpt Tp is home to the HESVs, Dozers, Loaders, Excavators, Graders, and Cranes

The resources troop holds all of our â Å“specialâ ? equipment and provides transportation for what is external to the regiment.  A ROWPU section is part of the troop and conducts all of the brigades water purification.  There is a mine/counter-mine section which holds the mine layers, mine cache stores, bomb suits, and is seen as the source for current mine warfare training.  The stores section hold boats, TMHTS, portable wood-mill, etc.  The stores section also provides transportation of MGB, MFB/MR, bulk mines, and other assets external to the unit.  Often, many of our BBE Ops will be from the stores section.  Lastly, Dive Stores is a part of this troop.


Spr.Earl,
1 CER has the last armoured troop in the country.  The latest Army direction is that the regiment will get an armoured squadron but other changes that are comming may over take this.  At the very least, the regiment will probably have two armoured troops.  Armoured is still a part of Sp Sqn but I would not be surprised if we soon see one troop in each of the two Fd Sqns.

Offline Spr.Earl

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2004, 02:59:37 »
"Armoured is still a part of Sp Sqn but I would not be surprised if we soon see one troop in each of the two Fd Sqns."

 I hope you are right,as both you and I know how versitile the Badger can be when used properly and also good support for the Fd. Sqns if attached to a Sqn. also this will eliminate having to going through the chain to get one when one is needed.

P.S. Speaking of the Badger,is Bob Simons still in?


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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2004, 12:51:37 »
Quote
Infanteer,
More on a real Sp Sqn: Every regular force CER has a Support Squadron which consists of heavy equipment troop, construction troop, and resource troop.  (but Constr Tp is only administratively attached in peace time and actually belongs to 4 ESR).

The Hy Eqpt Tp is home to the HESVs, Dozers, Loaders, Excavators, Graders, and Cranes

The resources troop holds all of our â Å“specialâ ? equipment and provides transportation for what is external to the regiment.  A ROWPU section is part of the troop and conducts all of the brigades water purification.  There is a mine/counter-mine section which holds the mine layers, mine cache stores, bomb suits, and is seen as the source for current mine warfare training.  The stores section hold boats, TMHTS, portable wood-mill, etc.  The stores section also provides transportation of MGB, MFB/MR, bulk mines, and other assets external to the unit.  Often, many of our BBE Ops will be from the stores section.  Lastly, Dive Stores is a part of this troop.

Thanks alot for the clarification.  Makes things alot easier for me.

Two more questions:
1) Do the Sappers in the Field Squadrons use LAV III's as their principal method of transport in the 20 CMBG concept?  I remember seeing a bunch with all the rest of that stuff in the 1 CER compound.

2) Are the Engineers in process of taking over the NBCW role that the Pioneers had, or did they already have it?  Is it going to be a general skill, or placed in HQ or Support Squadron as a NBCW Troop.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline MCG

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2004, 21:47:32 »
1) On this note we are in the process of a change.  Tp Comd & Recce each have a LAV III.  The Tp WO has an M113 with dual radios to function as Tp CP.  Currently our section vehicle is changing from old M113 to new M113A3.  In the near future, half of the field sections will be in the LAV III Engr but none of these are in the system yet.  I do not know how fleet management will impact this vehicle distribution.

2) Engineers have always had responsibility for NBCD, but we have never given it the attention it deserves.  Hopefully this will change.  (As a side note, the NBCW school in Borden has several hard engineer positions).

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2004, 03:25:38 »

Offline MedCorps

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2004, 00:20:54 »
We were just talking about the "future org" of the CER a few days ago.  The Eng O that was speaking noted that with the loss of Pnr and assault tps the future structure will look like:

CER (45-112-565)

HQ Sqn
    RHQ Tp
          Comd Gp
          ESCC
          Sig Section
     Adm Sqn
            SHQ
            Log Tp
            Med Section
            Maint Tp

Fd Engr Sqn x 3 (7-23-123)
      HQ Tp
      Fd Engr Tp x 2  (2 x LAV III, 1 x LAV CP, 2 x HLVW, 4 x LAV Engr)
      Close Sp Tp (2 x LAV III, 1 x LAV CP, 2 AEV, 2 AVLB, 4 x Leo with plough no turret), 4 x MPEV, 4   
                                VLMDS, 2 x HLVW)

Engr Sp Sqn
      HQ Tp
      Equip Tp (2 x LAV III, 1 x LAV CP, 2 Hy Dozer, 2 Med Dozer, 2 Med Loader, 4 MPEV, 2 Crane, 2
                           Med Excavator, 4 Dump, 6 HESV, 5 HLVW)
      Construction Tp
      Resource Tp (2 x LAV III, 1x LAV CP, 9 x PLS, 1 ML Dive SEV, 4 HLVW, 2 ROWPU, 1 MLVW)
 


Hope that is of some interest.   Still seems like we did not replace the Pnr / Asslt Tps very well, as there is only one Close Sp Tp. 

Cheers,

MC

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2004, 16:56:53 »
Hi MedCorps, for the ignorant and uninformed here........that would be me if no one else ..... What is a VLMDS when it's at home?

And wrt the Badger AEVs, the Beaver AVLBs and the Leo Dozers are we planning on converting some of the Leo MBTs or reducing the number of Engineer Regiments/Squadrons? 

As I understand it we only have 8 of each of the AEVs and AVLBs and about the same number of Dozer Tanks (1/Sqn of 19?)

With your ORBAT, as I would interpret it we need 6 AEVs, 6 AVLBs and 6 Dozer Tanks per Regiment or about 18 of each for three Regiments.  Not including Wainwright, Gagetown, Borden and Deployment stocks.  With those we would pretty near have to convert our entire current holdings of Leos to Engr variants - could have a couple left over to convert to HAPCs maybe.

On the other hand Matt Fisher's post on the MPEV seems to suggest that with a buy of 28 vehicles the Engineers could be being downsized to 6 or 7 Squadrons, again assuming your ORBAT requirement of 4 MPEV per Field Squadron.

Or is it possible that two Regiments will be equipped with MPEVs in the Support Troops while one will have two Squadrons supported with AEVs and AVLBs while the third Squadron has MPEVs?

Just trying to get a handle on this.  Thanks.

"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline MedCorps

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2004, 20:29:18 »
Kirkhill,

I definately do not have all (or any of the answers) as I was just at the presentation.

The VLMDS is vehicle launched mine dispensing system.  I am not sure if we have these, or are thinking about getting them. 

Yes the org would indicate that a CER would have 6 AEV and 6 AVLB.  That would leave one for CTC and one for CMTC.  It is possible that each of the CERs would keep 2 of them, or one of the CERs would hold all of them.   Again a guess (not even sure how educated, as I just learned from you that we only have 8 of them... lol).

As the Leopards are fading away with the DFS Bn replacing them,  there will be lots of Leo's we can rip the turret off and bolt on the  plough. 

That is abot all the info I have.  If anything else comes along, I will share.

Cheers,

MC


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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2004, 21:50:48 »
Thanks MC. 

Especially on the VLMDS.  Cheers
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline MCG

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2004, 17:33:08 »
MedCorps,
What you were shown by the Engr was intended as a model for TEWTS, CAX, CPX, etc.   It is not real and we do not have enough equipment for it to ever be real.   However, it does reflect some new organisational thoughts on Engr Regts.   Specifically the re-introduction of support troops into each of the field squadrons.

Still seems like we did not replace the Pnr / Asslt Tps very well, as there is only one Close Sp Tp.
This title â Å“Close Sp Tpâ ? has been used inaccurately here.   A CS Tp has always been an Armd /Fd Tp hybrid (one Tp HQ, three Fd Sects, and an Armd Sect).   The CS Tp was to provide close Engr Sp to the Cbt Tm.   It would not be a permanent troop but several could be created by the trading of sections between Fd Tps and an Armd Tp.

The â Å“Close Sp Tpâ ? in the org you have shown is really just a Sp Tp.

And wrt the Badger AEVs, the Beaver AVLBs and the Leo Dozers are we planning on converting some of the Leo MBTs
No plan for Leopard Dozer tanks in the Engrs, however there has been talk of converting some leopards to permanent plough tanks.   I have heard no details on this beyond concept talk.

I've never heard talk of converting MBT in to AVLB or AEV.     I don't think it would even be possible to convert to AEV.   The AEV hull is more like that of the ARV and not like that of the MBT.  

As I understand it we only have 8 of each of the AEVs and AVLBs and about the same number of Dozer Tanks (1/Sqn of 19?)
We have 9 of each.   6 of each will go to 1 CER/CMTC and 3 of each will sit in a Montreal depot.

the Engineers could be being downsized to 6 or 7 Squadrons, again assuming your ORBAT requirement of 4 MPEV per Field Squadron.
We only have seven field squadrons now.  

The MPEV has been a long time coming.   For the last 10 years our doctrine has called for two in each Fd Tp.   However, another school of thought feels that these unarmoured vehicles would be under utilised at that level.   This school of though suggests that the four MPEV be grouped as a Sqn asset or as part of a Sp Sqn.   In either case, we have been waiting a decade, but we do not have them yet, and the train-the-trainer courses are just starting now.

The VLMDS is vehicle launched mine dispensing system. I am not sure if we have these, or are thinking about getting them.
We do not have any of these (but like the MPEV they do have a place in doctrine).  So far the only place I've heard may be getting any is 4 ESR's MCM Tp.


So, what will we see?   I don't know yet.   2 CER and 5 RGC may stay as they are now (with no Armd Engr) and see the MPEV placed at Tp or Sqn level (or maybe even grouped in heavy Equipment troop).   1 CER has been told it will get an Armd Sqn.   This may turn out to be one 6 tank troop in each field squadron or it may turn out to be a full armoured squadron with two troops of six tanks each.   4 ESR . . . anything could happen there.



Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2004, 00:06:05 »
Quote from: McGToday at 17:33:08 

Quote
Quote from: Kirkhill on August 17, 2004, 16:56:53
And wrt the Badger AEVs, the Beaver AVLBs and the Leo Dozers are we planning on converting some of the Leo MBTs
No plan for Leopard Dozer tanks in the Engrs, however there has been talk of converting some leopards to permanent plough tanks.  I have heard no details on this beyond concept talk.

I've never heard talk of converting MBT in to AVLB or AEV.   I don't think it would even be possible to convert to AEV.  The AEV hull is more like that of the ARV and not like that of the MBT. 


Quote from: Kirkhill on August 17, 2004, 16:56:53
As I understand it we only have 8 of each of the AEVs and AVLBs and about the same number of Dozer Tanks (1/Sqn of 19?)
We have 9 of each.  6 of each will go to 1 CER/CMTC and 3 of each will sit in a Montreal depot.

Thanks for the clarification McG.  Always preferable to have the straight skinny.


And as for this....

Quote
Quote from: Kirkhill on August 17, 2004, 16:56:53
the Engineers could be being downsized to 6 or 7 Squadrons, again assuming your ORBAT requirement of 4 MPEV per Field Squadron.
We only have seven field squadrons now.

I'm sorry.  I thought you guys were the fair-haired boys of the new kindler-gentler army - cleaning up after all those other nasty people get finished killing each other.

Irony intended.  Anger, sadness, "dumfoonert".....



"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Huffman

  • Guest
Re: Engineering Regiment Breakdown
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2004, 21:33:58 »
I was just wondering what the rank breakdown is like? For the Troop that is, someone said it's like the Pioneers, so is it like this?

http://members.shaw.ca/calgaryhighlanders/pioneer.htm

If anyone could explain it in the terms of that link (^^) or give me another link that is similar to that but is in modern terms such as the structure used by the 1 CER for there 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. Troops, that would be great.

Thanks.

****Edit: Just adding more detail to the question.

For instance, are there sections headed by a NCM (Sgt or Cpl) like in the infantry? Are there 3 or 4 sections to a platoon and then a few platoons to a Troop, so a Troop is like an infantry Coy? Or no?

Thanks again.