Author Topic: Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )  (Read 45081 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2004, 22:59:33 »
It's a shame I can't be over on the right where it's so easy to blame everyone for their own misfortune...

...it is a shame, because your camped in the "It's everyone else's fault, especially the white guy" corner.

 :'(
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Offline MCG

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2004, 23:17:27 »
I guess if having due concern for fellow Canadians living in poverty is a product of being blinded by left wing notions of reaching true equality, then I'm guilty...
You don't seem to show any due concern for non-minoreties living in poverty.

Offline Sigs Guy

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2004, 23:23:46 »
"I guess if having due concern for fellow Canadians living in poverty is a product of being blinded by left wing notions of reaching true equality, then I'm guilty..."

But don't some white males also live in poverty, so why are'nt we giving them special privilidges when they join up with the army or police force. I've got a good idea, when a person applies, lets figure out their whole life story, and lets screw going with whose the best for the job. Lets instead go by who the most discriminated against and lets pick them only and screw all those other applicants.

So are you saying that if I joined up with the RCMP lets say, and I got the top scores on all of my tests, but since an immigrant is applying they should immediatly get the job because of the "discrimination" they face.

Lets try eradicating discrimination by not looking at race at all when hiring people, and give every single person an equal oppurtunity regardless of their race. I don't really see how immigrants are immediatly disadvantaged when they come to this country, if they feel this country is racist and discriminatory, I'm sure their home country would allow them back in.
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Offline camochick

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2004, 23:30:25 »
It's so easy to blame everyone else for your misfortunes. I agree that lately it seems like the white male is getting the shaft big time. I mean why is the military standards for entry different for men than women. Don't they all do the same job?
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aesop081

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2004, 23:51:51 »
I agree with your last statement.  When i was a combat engineer, i always wondered why women had to do 19 push-ups to pass and men 21.......Dont bridge parts weight the same for all soldiers ????

Offline camochick

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2004, 23:52:35 »
actually it's 9 push up hehe
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aesop081

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2004, 00:03:45 »
Hehe...whatever it is....you get my point.  Maybe Aaron White or ToRn would like to insert their 2 cents ??

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2004, 00:05:16 »
True story:

In 1994, I was an instructor at the RCR Battleschool in Pet, teaching a QL-3 Infantry course. There I had the pleasure of instructing the best candidate I have ever had (and I have instructed on Basic, Junior Leadership, Basic Officer Training Course and RESO over the years). This guy was smart, in both the "book" and "street" sense, was a superb athlete, had natural charisma (the section would follow his lead off duty), and was photogenic to boot. In military slang, this guy was a "streamer", and I could see him moving quickly up the ranks, or taking a commission.

Unfortunately, at the end of the course, the first ever "self identification" survey came out and the troops were required to fill them out. My candidate was extremely upset, and justifiably so; for no matter how good he was, or how much ability or merit he displayed, for the rest of his career, his accomplishments would be discounted as being due to his ethnic background: he was a Cree from Saskatchewan.

I wonder how many people have to struggle with this suspicion planted by the quota system. It is bad enough in peacetime, just imagine if you are wondering about the qualifications of the soldier next to you  in a combat situation. Looking the other way, a person who "may" be favored by quotas will know there will always be suspicion directed at their achievements, with someone always ready to say, well, it is just because they are an...
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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2004, 00:05:53 »
* Insert sarcastic comment here with smiley face*


Offline camochick

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2004, 00:06:34 »
hehe yeah . There is definatly no shortage of opinions from those two.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2004, 00:40:49 »
.....Dont bridge parts weight the same for all soldiers ????

Maybe that is why we are going for lighter Bridging these days

GW

Question:  Why do we have to harp on all the ways we are "different"?  We have to take Sharp Trg, and then Differential Trg, where we learn all about "Xs" and "Ys".  Why?  We should be learning why we are all the same.   What makes us the same?  We all wear Green?

Language has always been a bone of contention for me.  How does learning French make me a better shot on the range?

GW
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Offline camochick

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2004, 00:50:01 »
I dont understand it either. I don't understand why we dont stop looking at people different and realize we are all humans. We should embrace what makes us different and try and understand each other. By giving someone a job because of their race or the language they speak dont we further create a divide between us.
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Offline Slim

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2004, 01:34:44 »
I dont understand it either. I don't understand why we dont stop looking at people different and realize we are all humans. We should embrace what makes us different and try and understand each other. By giving someone a job because of their race or the language they speak dont we further create a divide between us.

In my experience there are two things that break down barriers of race, class and sex.

Those are

Teamwork and shared Hardship.

Go to a combat arms unit (reg force). Some will be black, some white, some oriental...But ask them about this issue. The answer you'll get almost to a man (or woman) is that they're all soldiers. Its also, to a lesser degree, the same with cops and firemen.

In the face of what they do sex, race and class distinction completely dissapear.  For the average joe on the street there is no motivation to want to integrate him or herself into any other groups. Furthermore, all the prejuduces of the past come into play. Suddenly Joe on the street thinks that the immigrants from the country of purple are here to take his job and date his women (or men-I've been sharpened)

How do you fix that?

I haven't got that answer. And I don't know if anyone else does either...

Slim :salute:
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aesop081

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #113 on: November 19, 2004, 07:14:18 »
Maybe that is why we are going for lighter Bridging these days

GW

Question:   Why do we have to harp on all the ways we are "different"?   We have to take Sharp Trg, and then Differential Trg, where we learn all about "Xs" and "Ys".   Why?   We should be learning why we are all the same.     What makes us the same?   We all wear Green?

Language has always been a bone of contention for me.   How does learning French make me a better shot on the range?

GW


Where did you get the idea that we were getting lighter bridges ? Last time i checked the MGB is still around......did it get lighter recently ?

You have to learn french for the same reason that i have to learn english.  It may not be apparent to you but we have troops that speak only one language and the more senior you become , you have to be able to communicate with ALL of them.  You have to look beyond what is straight in front of you ( your range comment) and look at the bigger picture.  So please don't cry me a river about having to learn french, i have been employed in english my entire career and my current MOC will nottake you if you can't speak and read english......

homerjsimpson

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2004, 07:46:04 »
Quote
Differential Trg?


What is that?, I've had to take "Diversity" training...

Offline Heatwave

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2004, 09:52:41 »
CivU,

We are arguing symantics...I satated that the present notion believes there is no such thing as reverse discrimination, for the reasons I suggested...That is certainly one train of thought, not that I wholeheartedly adhered to, but that I presented to facilitate the discussion...

Got it!  Much clearer now...I didn't correctly interpret your meaning/intent...must of been all that "smoke-eatin" in my earlier years.  ;)

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Offline mover1

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Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #116 on: December 09, 2005, 10:31:19 »
http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/engraph/recruiterforaday/index_e.aspx

CANFORGEN 186/05 ADM(HR-MIL) 100 091313Z DEC 05
CF RECRUITING PROGRAM - RECRUITER FOR A DAY

"THE CF HAS APPROXIMATELY 170 FULL-TIME RECRUITERS, THE VAST MAJORITY OF WHOM ARE CAUCASIAN MALES. RECRUITING EFFORTS REQUIRE REINFORCEMENT FROM FEMALE, ABORIGINAL AND VISIBLE MINORITY REPRESENTATIVES TO ATTRACT APPLICANTS FROM UNDER-REPRESENTED, NON-TRADITIONAL GROUPS, TO WHOM IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THE CF IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT VALUES THE DIVERSITY OF ITS PEOPLE "

I am not going to say a thing about this program and its merits or its vices, However, the way the career manager explained things to me was when he chooses people for postings, he leaves sex and ethnicity out of the equation's

Its hard to treat people like people and try to be unbiased when we get this type of program encouraged in the CF which favours certain groups to others. This has the potential to backfire and only cause a further divide for those who are predjudice between certain groups....

....ok I said something!! :-X
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 10:35:05 by mover1 »

Offline kincanucks

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2005, 15:46:23 »
This is about serving CF members who are female, aboriginal and VM and who are interested in being involved in recruiting at attraction events that are specifically targeting those groups that are under represented in the CF.  It is not about posting them to recruiting units so I am a little confused about your post.  Believe it or not but we do conduct recruiting events to attract people other than white Anglo males.
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Offline GO!!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2005, 16:12:11 »
I agree with Mover.

The CF is not promoting anything even close to "equality" with tripe like this. This is just discrimination against the one group that the CF was founded on, and that continues to provide it's backbone today. This superficiality is revealed in the fact that only "minorities" who are "visible" are worthy of representation.

I would think that as a recruiter kincanucks, you would be insulted by the inference that you "require reinforcement" to recruit natives and women. Are you not able to recruit from these two groups now?

Why does this military continue to treat soldiers like some massive, employee social engineering project?
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Offline kincanucks

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #119 on: December 09, 2005, 19:52:35 »
We do our best to attract and recruit people from all backgrounds.  Can we do better?  Sure we can and programs like this will hopefully assist us in getting the word out to all Canadians that the CF is an excellent organization to work in.  Cheers.
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Offline ZxExN

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #120 on: December 10, 2005, 10:57:46 »
I'm all for getting the word out and attracting more 'applicants' from minority groups, hopefully that will mean more successful applicants. But please if they're not suited for the job, don't try and fill some equity 'ratio' like they do in the work force.

Offline Dog

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #121 on: December 10, 2005, 11:58:09 »
 While not an organization that is considered a mainstream part of the workforce, the CF is part of Canada's workforce, and it's not necessarily a bad thing that they want to attract a group/groups of people who traditionally don't serve in the forces, the more the merrier, right?

 However, that being said, I can't help but wonder about the problems I had when applying for a few police forces and being told that I wasn't "reflective of the community demographic that they were looking for at that point in time." I see that in the recruiting brochures many of the people shown, whether sailors, techs, or infantry are women, and I know that when you gear a recruiting process to a group like women, you inevitably make it less attractive to men. I have friends that didn't apply because it didn't look like something they were interested in, because all the video's and brochures were full of smiling happy women, and they were more interested in being dirty, and crawling around under barbed wire, and cussin' and spittin'.

 Is that going to happen when you gear it to blacks, or aboriginals, or whatever... is it going to stop looking attractive to whites? Is it going to be another situation where white guys get passed over for minorities, regardless of qualifications? And then they get disillusioned (like I did with the police) and start looking somewhere else?

Grub fer ponderin'....
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #122 on: December 10, 2005, 12:45:45 »
Interesting comments. Off the top of my head I can think of the names of four "visible minority" soldiers who were Regimental Sergeants Major in The RCR.  They are certainly among the most professional soldiers I have ever had the privilege of serving with, and their abiity to balance their 'old school' military upbringing with new attitudes of inclusiveness and equal opportunity (i.e., the right to to try, not to be confused to any perception of a right to success without the required potential and performance) was exemplary. Statistically, I suspect their success was way above any expectations based solely on numbers. I would hate to think we may miss the chance to recruit other soldiers of that calibre because some would promote the concept of the Canadian military as an exclusive club for white males.

Offline GO!!!

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #123 on: December 10, 2005, 18:14:51 »
The CF is not, and should not be an exclusively white anglo male club, but neither should it imply to potential recruits that one group of them is more highly prized due to the color of their skin.

True equality would mean that the recruiting system would be "blind" to ancestry and sex. You are your rank, trade and pers file - nothing more, nothing less. The bottom line is, certain lines of work are going to be more attractive to certain groups of people, no matter how much the CF tries to diversify.

I suspect that the reg force infantry will always be a male dominated trade, just as dental assistant will probably always be a female dominated one, why can't we be happy with this? The social engineering that the CF pursues looks shallow, and most people I know only smirk and laugh at these foolish attempts.

Pick the best person for the job - period. SAY you are going to do so, then do it - color and sex be damned.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Employment equity is only for those who qualify
« Reply #124 on: December 10, 2005, 18:32:45 »
Why use warm bodies to chase social engineering?
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