Author Topic: Employment Equity in the CAF ( merged )  (Read 45057 times)

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Offline SHELLDRAKE!!

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2004, 05:48:25 »
 I think most will agree that at some point in the history of the CF there was sexist or racist policies in recruiting(even if unwritten)however this thread seems to be leaning towards an argument of weather minorites are still being repressed or not.IMHO if the CF adopted a policy of basing their recruiting on the people interested and not targeting specific groups, there would be less problems.If you as an employer was blind and had every job applicant read off their capeabilities and qualifications, you would hire the people that could best do the job for you, not the person who fits into the category of smallest represented race/sex group.Maybee its as simple as certain race groups have different motivations towards a service in the military, be it a stronger or weaker aversion but in the end I believe its up to the Canadian themselve no matter what race or sex and noone should be preassured into service just to meet a quota.
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Offline Heatwave

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2004, 08:47:12 »
You can lead a horse to water.....I don't object to bringing the Forces to the attention of everyone, including those that aren't exposed to us, or those who aren't aware that there are opportunities available for them (notice...I didn't say minorities!  There are people of all races that aren't aware of the opportunities we offer).

My concern is Reverse Discrimination.  As working in a field that has been subject to it on the civilian side (that is a fact and was proven during inquiries in both Hamilton and Toronto Human Resources Depts.), we have to be careful.  Sure, the majority in the military is currently Caucasian males.  Then, after concentrating our efforts towards recruiting the â Å“Blue Quahogsâ ? (my invented race, done so not to directly offend anyone), eventually the Blue Quahogs will become the majority race.  What will that bring?  Reverse Discrimination...as the Caucasion male would now become a minority.  What a vicious circle!  My point being, regardless of our hiring process, one race will always be the majority.  Yes, advertise and educate everyone on our opportunities (ie:  the Lead a horse to water analogy).  However, if certain races choose not to enroll, favouritism over others can't be given to those few of that race that do choose to enroll.  In other words, as I believe SHELLDRAKE had already alluded to, may the best and most qualified â Å“Blue Quahogâ ? for the job, win (to say â Å“manâ ? would've been discriminatory in this case :)).

It's nice to get input from Koach on this whole manner, as his/her avatar states that he/she is experienced in this manner (No, that's not meant in a sarcastic way).

 As for the Ryerson report â Å“the Canadian Forces no longer represent the people they have sworn to defend.â ?  That's funny, because I never once swore to defend the Caucasian Male.  I proudly defend this whole Country and protect those in it from harm.  As well as defend the interests of this Country, while operating abroad, within my given mandate :cdn:.  That whole report is nothing but a â Å“blood boilerâ ? IMO.
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2004, 10:40:39 »
Quote
â Å“I consider myself Chinese first and Canadian second, I guess, because I was brought up in Canada but my roots are Chinese,â ? he says.

What would he do if he had to conduct operations against the PLA?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Canuck_25(Banned)

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2004, 12:05:19 »
 We have to face is, their is racism in canada. Growing up in a small town near a native reserve really lets you see what our goverment policies are.

 Native students get paid for each day they attend highschool
 Native students can enter a university with far lower GPA then any other student.
 natives dont have to pay income tax
 

 Its a bit of a joke, considering we have a charter of rights and freedoms that praises equallity.

Offline combat_medic

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2004, 12:40:42 »
Dreadnought: It may come as a surprise to you that there are "minority groups" on this forum, and think it's as much horse$hit as the average Caucasian Male. I'm considered a minority, and I still think that "affirmative action" is a load of crap. If you can't get in on your own merits, then you can't get in. No lowering the bar to meet HRDC-defined quotas saying we need 12% more recruits of Mongolian/Malaysian/Icelandic descent.

Remove all the bars, and don't deny qualified people the opportunity to serve, and let everyone compete. The most competitive people get in, whether they're a Polynesian Jewish Woman, or an Anglo-Saxon White Male.
"If you're in a fair fight, your tactics suck." - Paracowboy

humint

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2004, 13:23:05 »
There is more to the issue than this -- you need to be aware of the reasons for affirmative action beyond merely attracting and accepting visible minorities to right historical wrongs.

At its most basic level, affirmative action attempts to rectify disproportionate demographic representation. The theory behind it is that there are systemic barriers, such as a lack of access to quality education by low income wage earners in urban environments or a lack of access to  support systems that are available in suburban high income areas, and that this lack of access limits a person's ability to compete.

By having affirmative action programs, you are providing an opportunity to someone that would not otherwise be able to participate due to systemic barriers, and are attempting to have proportionate representation.

It is impossible to get into all the issues in this limited means of comms.

Yes, in a perfect world, we would all compete against each other in an equal competition. However, this is not a perfect world. And, not all the solutions are perfect either.

That said, as historical disadvantaged groups gain greater access to services, you will see less affirmative action programmes. At this point, demographic proportion is maintained through direct recruitment initiatives based on fair competition.
     

CivU

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2004, 13:55:19 »
I think argylls touched on some of the barriers I mentioned earlier...

Affirmative action as a means to place every one on a level playing feel, so that they can compete fairly for positions in whatever aspect of the labour market, is both reasonable and necessary.  Everyone can be treated fairly, but if their ability to achieve competitive skills is hindered by their income, race, location, etc. then they are at an unsurmountable disadvantage from the onset.

As for reverse discrimination, trying to eliminate the exploitative practices that have placed Caucasian males in their present position, and subordinated other groups, is hardly reverse discrimination, but an attempt to again level the playing field.  You have to ask yourself how one came to be the dominant group, without dominating someone else...

As for the comments of Canuck on the treatment of Native Canadians...I suggest you review some of your Canadian history and ask yourself if our seemingly favourable actions of present could ever come close to making up for the effects and results of our abhorrent actions of the past...I think not.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2004, 14:11:41 »
Canuck 25, you're an idiot - your posts to date have been nothing but uneducated bashing on various topics that you know jack crap about (the military, recruitment, Natives).  Unless you wish to present a point backed by evidence, keep it too yourself.

CivU:

Thanks for taking the time to spell out what you were explaining earlier.

Although it may fall under the definition of "affirmative action", I'm not sure that I'd classify what you underlined to be affirmative action in the "political" sense.  Targeting different regions/groups of people with recruiting drives does not affect standards of enrollment or recruit competition, so it does not seem to fit into the "political" defintion of affirmative action - which means that standards or requirements are set at different levels for different groups of people; a practice I'm fundamentally opposed to.

Cheers,

Infanteer
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Canuck_25(Banned)

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2004, 15:25:24 »
Canuck 25, you're an idiot - your posts to date have been nothing but uneducated bashing on various topics that you know jack crap about (the military, recruitment, Natives).   Unless you wish to present a point backed by evidence, keep it too yourself.

CivU:

Thanks for taking the time to spell out what you were explaining earlier.

Although it may fall under the definition of "affirmative action", I'm not sure that I'd classify what you underlined to be affirmative action in the "political" sense.   Targeting different regions/groups of people with recruiting drives does not affect standards of enrollment or recruit competition, so it does not seem to fit into the "political" defintion of affirmative action - which means that standards or requirements are set at different levels for different groups of people; a practice I'm fundamentally opposed to.

Cheers,

Infanteer

  Evidence, you are saying everything i posted is false? Well your wrong. Its a fact that the military is trying to encourage minorities to join th military, and its a fact that the natives recieve unequal treatment as the rest of canadians.

 My statements stand, im surprised one in the military is posting crap like this. I know enough, not all. If you say you know it all, and i know nothing, well, that is false also.

 

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2004, 15:32:52 »
Evidence, you are saying everything i posted is false? Well your wrong. Its a fact that the military is trying to encourage minorities to join th military, and its a fact that the natives recieve unequal treatment as the rest of canadians.

 My statements stand, im surprised one in the military is posting crap like this. I know enough, not all. If you say you know it all, and i know nothing, well, that is false also.

You attempt to paint certain policies with broad, unsubstantiated statements.  Unless you're going to prove it, STFU.

I've pointed out to you that your constant blabbing of hearsay, misconceptions, and unsubstantiated claims is in direct contravention of Forum policies here.  If you want to keep this up, I'll bring the formal warning system into play.

Since you obviously ignored it the first time I gave the link to you, here it is again; this is your final warning.

http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,17343.0.html
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline MCG

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2004, 00:00:13 »
Evidence, you are saying everything i posted is false? Well your wrong. Its a fact that the military is trying to encourage minorities to join th military, and its a fact that the natives recieve unequal treatment as the rest of canadians.
Show how encouraging minorities to join is the same as having different standards.  The two are not linked and there is only one standard for Canadian Forces applicants.

Offline CheersShag

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2004, 02:56:40 »
Going along with this topic has anyone ever heard of a program in place which encourages businesses dealing with the government to reflect the percentage of visible minorities in the Canadian populace. I've heard about it but can't quite place exactly where. For example, 5% of the population of Canada is black (not a real statistic) so a company dealing directly with the government would have to have 5% of their staff black, or not have to, but are encouraged to.
I have no idea how they would be encouraged, perhaps companies who reflect the population statistics would be higher on the merit list than those that don't??
Not quite affirmative action I think?
Does it even exist or is Che creating things again?

Offline cgyflames01

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2004, 03:50:12 »
Canuck; I thinks its time you only worried about yourself, getting into the armed forces, instead of dipping your hands into other people's matter's. A major concern to governments is the unemployment issue, And unfortunately our native population, is having some problems. I wont deny that their are many well-off natives, but several of them are disenfranchised from there reserves, and have an awkward time entering the cities. So I believe the CF, is striving to advertise, Carreer opportunities to natives. To ensure they know there is a door open to them, to live a meaningfull and healthy lifestyle. I also doubt highly that they get any special treatment. But if they do, what can you really do about it, don't worry, your time will come, and no matter what colour you are, everyone has to pass BMQ.

Offline Heatwave

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2004, 07:23:09 »
CivU - Reference your statement;
As for reverse discrimination, trying to eliminate the exploitative practices that have placed Caucasian males in their present position, and subordinated other groups, is hardly reverse discrimination, but an attempt to again level the playing field.   You have to ask yourself how one came to be the dominant group, without dominating someone else

I just want to clarify that I never said that our current topic was reverse discrimination, I said "we have to be careful."   In other words, as that which happened in the Toronto and Hamilton scenarios I mentioned on the 2nd page of this thread, we have to target ourselves (military) appropriately, so as to avoid reverse discrimination.   I'm sure that both the Human Resources centres in the a/m cities never intended to do so, but without instilling appropriate measures, they ended up doing just that, and it hit them in the face.

Just wanted to clarify that, so as not to be taken out of context.   I've noticed that you've eloquently explained yourself and your points, and I just wanted the same chance.   Otherwise others will be led to believe that I've jumped the gun and started crying wolf (aka: reverse discrimination).
Cheers

Chimo!
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Offline pbi

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2004, 07:52:51 »
Going along with this topic has anyone ever heard of a program in place which encourages businesses dealing with the government to reflect the percentage of visible minorities in the Canadian populace. I've heard about it but can't quite place exactly where. For example, 5% of the population of Canada is black (not a real statistic) so a company dealing directly with the government would have to have 5% of their staff black, or not have to, but are encouraged to.
I have no idea how they would be encouraged, perhaps companies who reflect the population statistics would be higher on the merit list than those that don't??
Not quite affirmative action I think?
Does it even exist or is Che creating things again?

I think that this does in fact exist, and is one of the criteria used by PWGSC in letting contracts to suppliers and contractors for the Federal Govt, not just DND. Cheers.
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CivU

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2004, 16:49:42 »
Heatwave,

Part of what I didnt address directly in my previous statement was a prevailing notion that there is in fact no such thing as reverse discrimination.  The concept of reverse discrimination is a label addressed to acts that seemingly enrich oppurtunities for visible minorities at the expense of caucasian males; however, this lacks credibility.

If you offer programs to visible minorities who have been disadvantaged by a cycle of exploitation and subordination by caucasian males, you are not discriminating against white males, but eliminating the barriers implemented by this group in an attempt to place all persons, regardless of race (im not even going to entertain a discussion on the merits of the term race, as much of a hot topic as that could become), sex, religion on an equal playing field. You are therefore not discriminating against caucasian males, but simply removing the effects of discrimination imposed by them, by advantaging certain groups who have been discriminated against.  Proponents of affirmative action are not suggesting that all caucasian males be removed from their positions to make way for visible minorities, as that would certainly be discriminatory, but instead suggests that the discriminatory reasoning that in numerous cases placed them there over other eligible candidates are removed so all parties can compete on the basis of what Infanteer (if you dont mind me suggesting this) seemed to deem absolutely necessary, a meritocracy.

I offer this as one perspective on the concept of reverse discrimination.  I certainly don't take credit for it, but it offers an interesting argument to the fundamental problems of affirmative action, that is, advantaging one grouip by seemingly disadvantaging another.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2004, 17:07:21 »
It still seems stupid to me...I don't see how I, as a Caucasian male, am the perpetuation of a cycle of exploitation and subordination against others.     ::)

Your membership dues for the NAC come up recently?

Quote
Part of what I didnt address directly in my previous statement was a prevailing notion that there is in fact no such thing as reverse discrimination.   The concept of reverse discrimination is a label addressed to acts that seemingly enrich oppurtunities for visible minorities at the expense of caucasian males; however, this lacks credibility.

I'm not following this.   Just because it happens to be Caucasian males that are excluded from opportunities, all the sudden it is not discrimination?

If "affirmative action" exists (in the conventional sense where standards differ based upon race/sex/preference of deodorant) then by nature "reverse discrimination" exists.   By lowering the bar for some you are automatically making it more difficult for the group still held to the standard to succeed.   In the case of "reverse discrimination" you are just replacing the poor _________ (insert minority group of choice) with a guy who happens to look like another guy who owned a plantation, beat women, and stole land from Natives a couple hundred years ago.

Instead of dancing around in the realm of theory, lets look at some hard examples of where affirmative action has been used and see the empirical results (the most famous is probably California's post-secondary education system, and the controversy around that was thick enough).

[BTW, this has left the realm of recruiting, off to Politics it goes)

Infanteer
« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 17:17:19 by Infanteer »
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2004, 17:18:40 »
You are therefore not discriminating against caucasian males, but simply removing the effects of discrimination imposed by them, by advantaging certain groups who have been discriminated against.

In all my 44 years this is getting close to the being the most moronic phrase I have ever read. So 10 years from now it will reverse and change the names around. ::)  DISCRIMINATION   It was wrong then and it wrong now! Slice and dice it how you want but if the best/fastest/fittest/most qualified/etc. does'nt get the job/promotion/etc. than its DISCRIMINATION

....and by the way, sunshine, I've never discriminated against anyone in my life so put this little gem and sti........


discrimination imposed by them
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2004, 17:23:50 »
Well, at least we agree on something for a change, Bruce.

I guess it's a conspiracy of white guys like you and me to try and perpetuate millennia of oppression and subjugation.... ::)
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

CivU

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2004, 17:38:40 »
"In all my 44 years this is getting close to the being the most moronic phrase I have ever read. So 10 years from now it will reverse and change the names around.    DISCRIMINATION
    It was wrong then and it wrong now! Slice and dice it how you want but if the best/fastest/fittest/most qualified/etc. does'nt get the job/promotion/etc. than its DISCRIMINATION

....and by the way, sunshine, I've never discriminated against anyone in my life so put this little gem and sti........"



I'm not quite sure whether to feel flattered, the most moronic? I suppose it could be worse...I digress.

To address how in ten years affirmative action policies will have reversed the situation, and the names will seemingly change around so as to place the average caucasian male in the position now held by visible minorities. I suggest you read literature, I recommend the American Journal of Sociology, Canadian Jounral of Sociology, Canadian Social Studies or the Perspectives released by Statistics Canada.   They should provide you with data that suggests the present disparity between minorities and caucasians in terms of per capita income, education levels, literacy rates, etc. is staggering.   Given the empirical evidence available it would be next to impossible for visible minorities to surpass the socio-economic standings of their caucasian counterparts in a decade.

As for the "best/fastest/fittest/most qualified/etc." getting the job...of course this is the aim of all persons, most certainly the Canadian Forces.   But are you suggesting that all caucasian persons hired in the past have been superior candidates to visible minorities, because that is the only reasoning that could account for the present discrepencies in most white collar and professional fields.   Playing devil's advocate, if this were the case and in all instances the caucasian candidates were superior, one would have to ask themselves why...and after doing so, would it not seem reasonable to try and eliminate any discriminatory factors that were directly corrolated to this inequality.

As for, "....and by the way, sunshine, I've never discriminated against anyone in my life so put this little gem and sti........", the eloquence is unparalleled.   I as a caucasian male doubt that I have not been directly afforded any advantages in my life as a result of discrimination.   This doesnt even begin to address the position caucasian males presently occupy as a result of a history (and ongoing) of discrimination that has resulted in our benefit over the suffering of many...I doubt you could argue against this in your own case. As for, "Well, at least we agree on something for a change, Bruce.  I guess it's a conspiracy of white guys like you and me to try and perpetuate millennia of oppression and subjugation.... " I think history will attest to the fact that it has been white guys like you or I who have been, and continue to be, perpetrators of oppression.

And Infanteer, if you consult my previous post regarding the two variations on affirmative action, you should recognize that I support a process that removes barriers to equality for oppressed minorities, and do not support an affirmative action that is merely quota filling at the expense of merit, and in our case in the CF, potential lives.





Offline Infanteer

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2004, 18:06:26 »
Quote
I think history will attest to the fact that it has been white guys like you or I who have been, and continue to be, perpetrators of oppression.

I think you need to put Noam Chomsky down and step back for a moment.  We shouldn't be forming policies along the lines of past injustices. 

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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2004, 18:16:01 »
Infanteer, this IS getting scary, I'm going for the same arguement here. :o

Quote,
But are you suggesting that all caucasian persons hired in the past have been superior candidates to visible minorities,
There is the hitch for me, yes it happened, it was wrong,....BUT ITS STILL WRONG.
Why is that hard to wrap around?
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Offline MissHardie

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2004, 18:27:36 »
CivU

I think history will attest to the fact that it has been white guys like you or I who have been, and continue to be, perpetrators of oppression.

"Perpetrators of oppression". I like that; its use reminds me of the distinction between one man's terrorist and another man's freedom fighter. The flip side being what, that us successful white caucasian folk today are the winners?

The question is, how can a past wrong be righted by another wrong?

CivU

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2004, 18:37:56 »
As far as Noam Chomsky goes...I didn't know he wrote on affirmative action.   But on the topic of a process of disconnection from "the other", may I suggest the late Edward W. Said...

In terms past injustices, I think it is hard to overlook present discrimination in the workplace when, for example, a woman earns 75 cents on every dollar a man makes.   The basis for this disparity it certainly not based on gender superiority, but instead, a history and presence of gender discrimination.   As for history, in which you decided to use an episode two thousand years ago as oppossed to a more recent and therefore relevant citation, "The Romans burned the village of my ancestors down in Gaul, I demand retribution from the Italian Government!!!", if we dont hold anyone accountable for the actions of the past, how can we expect anyone to behave any differently in the future.

As well..."There is the hitch for me, yes it happened, it was wrong,....BUT ITS STILL WRONG."

I don't know how you can refer to a form of affirmative action in which marginalized groups are offered oppurtunities that eliminate barriers, such as education initiatives or bursaries and grants, to the discrimination of the past in which persons were exploited, assimiliated, subordinated and/or eradicated...the two hardly seem comparable.   

Miss Hardie, I don't think anyone is a winner in the aftermath of oppression, but that's not to say they are not benefactors.  As for two wrongs don't make a right, this is a compelling claim; however, the affirmative action I mentioned above is hardly a 'wrong' in attempting to even the playing field.  In addition, to use a contemporary example but at the same time not to try and deviate from the topic at hand, if two wrongs dont make a right, then how can persons on this board justify ousting a violent tyrannt who murdered countless civilians, by using means that have resulted in the deaths of over 100,000 civilians...seems analogous...I'd be interested to hear your view...

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Affirmative Action recruiting policies?[split from RMC thread]
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2004, 19:05:09 »
>It's funny reading how all you complaining probably aren't from a visible minority.

It's funny how most of the people who have actually worn a Canadian uniform and been killed, or maimed in spirit and body, are not from a visible minority.  I will be quite happy to see everyone else ante up in proportion.  Those who want Canadian Values as currently constituted by the chattering establishment have the first duty to defend those values.  Those who thought earlier wars were not their business and those who have worked hard to erase and belittle the core, common sense moral values which came down to us over centuries of struggle need not look to me with a worried expression if someone else comes over the hill, well armed, with a different set of ideas in mind.

What are the systemic barriers, if any, remaining with regard to entry into the CF?  There are plenty of visible minorities in the large urban centres which have CFRCs.  Maybe the problem is - gasp! - self-selection.  I doubt very much that generations raised to exalt rights and privileges over responsibilities and obligations are going to line up for a profession which enshrines the notion of service before self.  Do we want a more socially balanced CF?  Start in the elementary schools.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.