Author Topic: 17 steps of battle procedure  (Read 105666 times)

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Offline a23trucker

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Re: Ref for Battle Procedure:
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2003, 21:43:00 »
Your right, 5 min of thought ahead of time usually gets you out of hours of trying to recover from the sh!t later.
Please note that this was meant to be a reply to "17 steps of battle procedure" post but I hit the wrong button......   :confused:  
Ps... It was 17 steps until the release of this new pam....

Offline bruce7711

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2007, 23:22:13 »
Do not fear the PLQ mods.  Show up and you have already passed the course.  Unfotunatley, the forever changing methods and ideas as how we should train JNCOs has left the actual course somewhat lacking in hardness.  The intergration of all services  and trades on 1-5 has enabled networking time and little else.  Yeah, ya gety to know some different dudes and dudettes, but thats about it.  Computer based training to train a junior leader, yeah, whatever.  And if you are lucky, you may have some instructors who have been cbt arms inAstan over the last year and a bit, but they will still have to teach as the school requires, and anyone who has done a PLQ lately knows what I mean.  So be  professional on crse, but do not get wrapped around the axle.  Some people will, and you will sit back and wonder why.  And the 15 steps of battle procedure sound good in  theory, but in reality you will skip half due to time and the mission.

Offline Zell_Dietrich

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2007, 06:01:53 »
When I saw 17 Steps of battle procedure I got really sad.  I just got off a course that taught us 15 steps and I thought "Oh god they changed it already?"  Thankfully I read the rest of the thread and found out I'm still current with my 15.  a23trucker Posted exactly what I was taught - and yes when applying them you do glaze over some steps.  Are you going to do a recce when you've been scampering about the same square Km all day? (or in same cases setting up the very next room which you were just in).

I was also taught that the 15 steps are just a tool to use.  It will be usefull when you're sleep deprived and you're likely to miss out something obvious - and important. It also allows for a flow, people know what to expect.  Once you've worked on a few small party taskings you'll understand the flow - so that when you're the one in charge it just makes sense to do it that way.

I've seen people fail BOTP II.  What happened was they tried to memorize the list without actually understanding it.  This would lead them to skip steps - giving formal orders before the warning order,  not explaining what is actually supposed to be done,  where to go on the recce when to come back etc.  I feel two things are extremely important to understand:  the big picture, who's doing what/when  and how the people you are directing see things.  Just because you know the big picture, doesn't mean they do, you have to let them know the overall picture so that they can help you (trust me they want to help)
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2007, 01:05:51 »
Battle Procedure is useful evidence that civilian bureaucratic control has not penetrated to the part of the army that matters.  Otherwise, it would be 121 steps by now.
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Offline Danjanou

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2007, 09:23:21 »
Battle Procedure is useful evidence that civilian bureaucratic control has not penetrated to the part of the army that matters.  Otherwise, it would be 121 steps by now.

And most of the 104 extra steps would be some form of "conferencing" and/or "giving/getting feedback."
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Offline Red 6

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2007, 23:04:31 »
 

This is pretty much off-target here, but still sort of in the same lane.

Planner's Rule of Management
Adapted from "Dogbert's Top Secret Management Handbook"
by Scott Adams

   1. The Boss is always right, even when he is stupid.
   2. The physical laws of time and space were meant to be broken.
   3. The problem is not a lack of resources, it's a lack of meetings.
   4. When in doubt, ask for status reports.
   5. If the Boss is talking, then he's communicating.
   6. Low morale is caused by character flaws in the planners.
   7. If ten people can complete a plan in ten days, then one person can complete the plan in one day.
   8. Teamwork is when other people do your work for you.
   9. Sickness in a planner is a manifestation of laziness.
  10. Abuse is a form of recognition. And recognition is what every planner wants.

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http://www.nbc-links.com/humor.html

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2007, 05:21:08 »
In the dark ages, when we wrote in complete sentences rather than in ‘points,’ battle procedure was (something like): “the whole process by which a commander* does his reconnaissance, makes his appreciation‡ and plan†, and issues the orders** to commit his troops to battle.”

Maybe Old Sweat still has his copy of the ‘little red book’ in which that, and other useful folk wisdom from 1939/45, was found.

----------
* any commander, from LCpl sec 2I/C through to Comd 1 CDN Army

‡ now the ‘estimate’ I believe – the difference being, I suppose, that we old farts appreciated (≈ understood through reason) while you young fellows ‘estimate’ (≈ guess)

† the plan is, actually, the outcome of the appreciation but our masters always thought it worth mentioning that we ought to have one – no matter how rough and ready

** always including warning orders

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Offline Journeyman

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2007, 08:47:23 »
...now the ‘estimate’ I believe – the difference being, I suppose, that we old farts appreciated (≈ understood through reason) while you young fellows ‘estimate’ (≈ guess)

 ;D
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2007, 09:27:31 »
Edward,

I think the little red book you meant is The Handbook of Unit Administration and Discipline, which did not deal with battle procedure. The only little red books I have are my copies of Otter's Guide, 1885 edition and a 1904 musketry pam, neither of which gets into battle procedure. I went through my collection of archaic pamphlets, but came up short.

Your definition is pretty good and I won't try to improve on it from memory. I agree with your point re appreciate and estimate.

I know we both used to deplore staff work by photocopier; now we have a new target for our geriatric spite: staff work by power point. Maybe the video professor will become the modern version of Staff Duties in the Field.

Offline Red 6

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2007, 10:09:49 »
Oh man! Don't get me started on how much I hate Power Point. Is it as widely used in the CF as it is in the US Army? If it is, I'm sorry. Extracts from http://www.nbc-links.com/officers.html

3. A unit that has no money for new computers or spare parts will still manage to afford a big-screen TV for Powerpoint slide shows.

4. A bad plan with good slides is better than a good plan with bad slides.

5. Three sergeants thinking about an issue dealing with their MOS for four months and coming up with a detailed plan is not as good as a colonel who knows nothing about their MOS thinking about it for 30 seconds.

11. Officers believe that a plan won't succeed unless it has a good name, like "Operation Intrinsic Action." NCOs would rather give it something simple, like "Operation Beat Their *&^%$ Heads In" and get on with it.

16. The more warning one has for a briefing, the more cheese one can provide for the briefing. Improving content is secondary.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2007, 10:40:25 »
...
I know we both used to deplore staff work by photocopier; now we have a new target for our geriatric spite: staff work by power point. Maybe the video professor will become the modern version of Staff Duties in the Field.

I thought Jack Layton was the video professor - in his free time.
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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2007, 10:43:43 »
Red 6

In my latest book I wrote about a certain Canadian general and his ultra-sophisticated plans. Instead of believing that no plan survives contact with the enemy, I opined that he knew that no enemy could survive contact with his plan. Thus, when things went wrong, it was the fault of his subordinates, thank you very much.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2007, 11:22:58 »
Edward,

I think the little red book you meant is The Handbook of Unit Administration and Discipline, which did not deal with battle procedure. The only little red books I have are my copies of Otter's Guide, 1885 edition and a 1904 musketry pam, neither of which gets into battle procedure. I went through my collection of archaic pamphlets, but came up short.

Your definition is pretty good ...

Maybe it was good ol' CAMT 1-8, that was always a crowd pleaser at promotion exam time, or 7-45, another favourite - I recall memorizing it, along with the principles of administration (was 'surprise' one of 'em) and the capabilities and limitations of the artillery - the limitations, if I recall, being limitless.  :-*
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as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
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Offline opcougar

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17 steps of battle procedure question template needed
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2009, 19:07:16 »
Need some help with the 17 steps of battle procedure in the following areas:

1. Need a good word doc or pdf template that can be used for an exercise

2. if anyone of you was to do an exercise lasting 12 hours........what would your detailed time and map estimate look like, taking into consideration a "no move before" certain time?

3. What are good default factors to use for coming up with COAs, if you were to setup a comms equipment?

Thx in advance

Offline George Wallace

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure question template needed
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2009, 19:28:32 »
I had time to read ten posts, and then hit SEARCH for "Battle Procedure" and here you go:

17 steps of battle procedure



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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure question template needed
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2009, 19:46:20 »
George, that thread list various versions of the steps of battle procedure, but I think the original poster was looking for a more in depth discussion on application.


Offline opcougar

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure question template needed
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2009, 19:58:48 »
That is correct. I need a more detail in depth take on the 17 steps. I'll also like to see how the experts would go about planning their detailed time and map estimate for a 12 hour exercise if they were to partake in one.

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure question template needed
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2009, 01:23:32 »
I'll also like to see how the experts would go about planning their detailed time

Work backwards from the time you have to have the task completed.........

Work backwards from task start time when planing you pre-mission battle procedure.......
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 01:27:46 by CDN Aviator »

Offline TCBF

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2009, 03:58:31 »
- Has anyone else noticed that since the step of "Issue Warning Order" was moved from before "Receive Orders" to after "Receive Orders" , we now scramble like mad, all the while wondering who stole our battle procedure time? Hard to get a jump on preparing when your boss is off to orders and leaves you without a warning order. Preparatory moves, anyone? How about mission specific equipment?
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Offline ArmyVern

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure question template needed
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2009, 12:40:08 »
That is correct. I need a more detail in depth take on the 17 steps. I'll also like to see how the experts would go about planning their detailed time and map estimate for a 12 hour exercise if they were to partake in one.

I've got a couple templates for you; you'll have to PM your email addy so I can put them through to you.

Vern
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Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2009, 13:39:52 »
- Has anyone else noticed that since the step of "Issue Warning Order" was moved from before "Receive Orders" to after "Receive Orders" , we now scramble like mad, all the while wondering who stole our battle procedure time? Hard to get a jump on preparing when your boss is off to orders and leaves you without a warning order. Preparatory moves, anyone? How about mission specific equipment?

Good point. I think that this happened when we adopted the US Army Military Decision Making Process (MDMP) and renamed it the Operational Planning Process (OPP). The placement of the Wng O in Troop Leading Procedures was the first thing I noticed when I was on course with the US Army.

I think that Canada could have left lower-level battle procedure alone (Cbt Tm and below). I still issue a Wng O before I go to orders. I then change it/add to it later on in my BP as before.

opcougar,

I will try to give an example of a detailed time estimate for a 12 hour period. It is intended to be illustrative, not authoritative! Lets say you are an RRB detachment commander. For laughs, you have an LSVW CP/RRB thingie and a LUVW. You were issued orders at 0800 hrs and it is now 0845 hrs. You were tasked with establishing an RRB site at an area Grid to support operations. You need to have your RRB established at 1400 hrs and operate it until 1800 hrs. There is a NMB of 1200 hrs, but forward recces are permitted. Your Mission Analysis is done and you have a kicking mission statement and a list of tasks that need to get done along with some constraints. The first paragraph of your orders is almost ready. You are now starting your detailed time estimate.

Going with what Cdn Aviator said, I would start with 1400 hrs as my key timing. You can mess a ton of stuff up, but timings must be met.

a.  RRB Established - 1400

Now you need to estimate how long it would take to set up that RRB. For shiggles, lets go with 30 minutes. I might then add 30 minutes of fudge time to allow for trouble shooting. Your experience will guide you here!

b.  Begin RRB Set Up - 1300

Now you need to look at your map and figure out how long it will take to get there. From the distance on the map and the terrain compared to your mobility you guess that it will take 15 minutes. You decide to add five minutes of fudge time (could be more if the move will be at night etc) and another five minutes for getting the vehicle out of the hide

c.  Depart Hide - 1235 hrs

Your guys will need to get the vehicle ready, their pers kit ready and do things like eat. A good Warning Order might have taken care of this, but lets say that you figure it will take one hour after orders to get everything ready.

d.  Orders End - 1130 hrs

Based on prior O Gps for similar operations you estimate that it will take 30 minutes to issue orders to include questions.

e.  Orders Start - 1100 hrs (this will go in the Wng O)

You need to write orders in order to give them. In the past it has taken you 30 minutes to write them out for similar tasks.

f.  Begin Orders Prep - 1030 hrs

You need a plan in order to write orders, and your Recce will give you this. You look at the map and any constraints and need to decide if you will conduct a recce on the ground or off the map. Since you have a LUVW, you haven't been up to the area grid for the RRB before, recce is permitted you do a quick budget (30 minutes transit and 30 minutes on site) and decide to conduct a Recce. Alternatively, you might have to do this on the map. Going there means that you can find a good spot on the ground, and are less likely to get lost later on. You could also have to do a prelim move closer to the site if a recce was not possible.

g.  Depart Recce Locn  to return to hide - 1015 hrs

h.  At Recce Locn - 0945

i.  Leave Hide for Recce - 0930

You will need a Recce Plan. This might take ten minutes.

j.  Recce Plan Start - 0920

You need to issue the Wng O (you are on course and have to follow the steps). You have your orders time and location, you know your mission and know the things that need to get done first. This might take ten minutes to prepare and five to issue.

k. Issue Wng O - 0915

l. Begin Wng O Prep - 0905

You look at your watch and  :o it is already 0858 hrs. You wrap up your time estimate and detailed map study.

Again, this is just a quick illustration and not a template!
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Offline opcougar

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2009, 05:48:42 »
Tango2Bravo....thx for the detailed explanation. puts things into perspective. I have to ask though, in terms of mission analysis, what time would you give that in your draft above?

This was the kind of breakdown I was looking for overrall. Also after recce has been completed and COAs done, there is a step for briefing the CO to get a decision????

Offline Tango2Bravo

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2009, 05:58:08 »
Time for steps will be a "it depends." For Mission Paralysis, the level of complexity of the orders and the level of the organization can have a huge impact. I have done MA in 15 minutes, but I have also done MAs that took two hours for thick Op Orders that I hadn't also received orally.

The time for backbriefs to be given (if they are done) will normally be given in his orders and it will go into your Time Estimate as a hard timing.

Once again, take my vignette as an illustration of the thought process of the time estimate - do NOT use it as a template.

Are you on course? If so, which one?
Well-trained, older Panzer crews are the decisive factor for success...It is preferable to start off with fewer Panzers than to set out with young crews who lack combat experience.

 - Verbal report of Gen Balck 1943

Offline George Wallace

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2009, 06:04:29 »
This is a whole 'exercise' that anyone would use in 'time management'.  You can take a day long or two day or week long course on civie street and learn the whole thing in a most convoluted manner.  If you take the 17 steps that the military will teach you in Leadership training, it all will boil down to what Tango2Brave just explained to you:  You are given your task.  You have a end time/time the task must be completed.  You take that time (that task needs to be completed) and work backwards to the current time.  You then adjust all the timings that you require for the various steps of your planning and preparation to fit into to the time span you have since receiving the tasking to the time the task must be completed.  You may find that you will have very little time for some of the stages/steps and may even have to skip one or two, such as a Recce......you may have to rely on a Map Recce of the site, and not an actual Recce of the site.

It is all an exercise in time management.


As for having a step for briefing the CO to get a decision.  No, you wouldn't have to do that, as it would have been the CO who tasked you to complete a task that (s)he would have thought of.  A very simplistic example:  If I tasked you to go to get me coffee, would you have to come up with a plan, then brief me on how you plan on getting me coffee?  No.  You'd simply go get me a coffee and that would be it, 

 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 06:27:10 by George Wallace »
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aesop081

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Re: 17 steps of battle procedure
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2009, 10:05:37 »
As for having a step for briefing the CO to get a decision.  No, you wouldn't have to do that,

Depending on what level the OP is working at or what course he/she is on, it could be more complicated that that.


 Also after recce has been completed and COAs done, there is a step for briefing the CO to get a decision????

Yes there is a step in the OPP for breifing the commander. Once enemy & Freindly COAs have been developed, validated and compared there is there is a "decision breif" done where the COAs are presented. expert input is sought and a recomendation is made as to which COA is the way to go.

Obviously if your task is to get coffee then.....yeah just go get coffee.