Author Topic: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split  (Read 104383 times)

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Offline I_Drive_Planes

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2006, 03:29:44 »
When I went through the mill last year (Processed for ROTP) I dealt with CFRC Vancouver and I have to say my experience was excellent all around.  There was no excessive waiting, all of the staff was very friendly and accessible for any questions or issues that I had.  They really made me feel like I was being looked after.  After my eye exam (I was initially being processed for Pilot) I couldn't see well enough to read, so they even had someone read the paperwork to me that I needed to sign.

I am really suprised to see CFRC Vancouver leading the poll.

Planes
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Offline kincanucks

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2006, 08:40:12 »
Here we go...

I first applied Feb 2003, and everything went rather well and reasonably quick (first visit to the unit, board, CFAT, PT test, second interview, and medical in about <3 months).  However, I had a medical issue which required a year and a half on the waiting list to get an appointment with the right specialist.   During this time, I even tried to get in touch with the RMO to ask if paying for a prompt appointment down south would be acceptable.  I left N messages, and never got a single reply.  The appointment date eventually came up, and the specialist signed off that I was able to meet the standard. 

Taking this to the CFRC, I was told that since it had been so long, I had to hold on to my medical letter and start a fresh application.  After going through all the steps again and submitting the letter during the medical stage, I received another form letter from the RMO stating I did not meet the enrolment standard.  Upon enquiring, I was told that unless the medical evaluation was current, meaning within the last three months, it was not valid.  This apparently important detail was never mentioned until after the fact, and even then it was only verbal.  As a point of constructive criticism, I believe that such crucial details as this be clearly indicated on letters from the RMO, as "current" does not have any specific meaning.  In addition, my reapplication process taking longer than these three months put me in a bit of a catch-22 situation. 

So I was forced to get another appointment, which only took 4 months this time since the specialist knew I was fine and wouldn't take long.  Anyways, things finally did work out this time, and as a matter of fact I got sworn in just a few weeks ago.;D

The way I see it, of the three years it took to get accepted, one was entirely due to bureaucratic problems.  I realize that truly motivated people will stick it out, but at the same time, delays can wreak havoc with scheduling training, etc.  For instance, I'm nearing the tail end of my university program, and it will obviously require greater sacrifices to get in summer courses when I'm done school. 

Kilo Mike


P.S.  I know I'm rambling on, but the story above also involved a standard case of lost paperwork, etc., which has been mentioned by others in these forums.  One particular incident at the CFRC which POed me a bit (no, I didn't show it) occured when I had set up an appointment with Cpl. A.  After heading down and informing Sgt. B at the front desk about it, I was told that Cpl. A was sick and not there that day.  Not five seconds later does Cpl. A come walking out of the room right next to Sgt. B, at which time Sgt. B made an embarrassed retraction of his lie.  I felt quite respected and appreciated at that time. ::)

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Offline misfit

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2006, 12:15:22 »
Ever since Air Cadets, I wanted to be a CF Pilot. My first experience was applying to RMC in high school. No complaints, just didn't make it. So I tried for reserve Infantry - didn't get in for the summer BMQ.

So I went away to a civilian university...studying a subject I didn't really care for, holding a sour disposition towards the CF. In my second year, I applied for Pilot. Despite having 20/20, qualifying on the CFAT, decent grades in school, leadership qualities, blah blah, I was counseled out for having admitted to trying pot no more than 3 times that year. Wow. I was told that my drug "habits" were unacceptable in the CF, and I could apply again in 6 months. I walked away from the recruiting center wondering where they were going to find all the applicants that had never tried pot before in their life. Totally discouraged, I never bothered to apply again 6 months later.

So, moving ahead to June 2005, I decided to apply again. Having been frustrated with the Officer application experience, and my vision having deterioted to 20/25, I thought I may be better suited as an Infantry NCM. I contacted a recruiter in Toronto, went in to get the forms - and got super pumped. The Sgt. told me that I had a chance to get for September BMQ! Filled out all the forms right away and gave them to her. Didn't hear anything for 3 weeks. So phoned the Sgt. and she gave me a new number to call. I called that number and they said they needed to get my file from Halifax (where I previously applied for Pilot). Fair enough I thought. 3 weeks go by and I call the CFRD in Toronto. I'm told that they are waiting for Halifax to send my file. 3 more weeks...nothing. So I phone up and ask if I can have the number to the Halifax  CFRD. I phone them up only to hear this "Oh, we never received a request to transfer your file". %$#^%#%$#^%!!!!!!!!

Anyway, it took about 4 months to get my file transferred. When it finally was, I got to do the medical, interview and PT. I must say, the staff at this CFRD were very helpful and friendly. So all that was finished and it was time for me to wait. The only thing holding up my merit listing now is the ERC. It has been over a month since the request was sent out for the ERC, and no word.

Getting anxious, I started researching other trades that I may be qualified for. When I phone the recruiting center asking if I could add some more trades to my app, I spoke with a VERY helpful 2nd Leitenant, who explained what each trade did. He also mentioned that I may be qualified for ROTP or CEOTP. I was excited. So I switched my application to ROTP and I'm just getting them the appropriate paperwork.

The only thing I can fault the CFRD for is taking so long to transfer my file. That, and the god awful waiting that everyone goes through.  :D





UBIQUE

Offline SeaRoom

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2006, 15:12:54 »
"I was counseled out for having admitted to trying pot no more than 3 times that year."

Hmmm...If you say so.

Problems do occur in recruiting, like any large bureaucracy, but I feel the need for some explanation:

Recruiting staff work 8 hours a day, just like most other office workers in the world. Thing is, we start at 0800, not 0900. That's why after 1600 it's hard to get hold of anyone. The Centre itself is often open until 1700, but only a skeleton crew stays that late; to do basic admin and keep the doors open for walk-ins. If it's an officer or recruiter that you are calling and getting no answer, it's most likely that they are either out of the office (as their duties often require them to be), or in an interview. Your interviewer sometimes has as much as 4 hours worth of interviewing in a day. If you want to be more successful at finding a "real" person, call early, not late. And on that subject, I know lots of career counsellors who make calls on the weekend, on their own time.

Recruiting centres, in fact, have very limited resources, especially in manpower. I'm personally filling two positions at the moment. The file managers work flat out from 0800 to 1600. I couldn't do their job - it's absolutely mind numbing. My centre processes more than 2500 files a year. Recruiting centres also suffer from high turnover of personnel. Many are reserve, and come and go rather quickly, making it difficult to maintain numbers of trained staff. Yet despite the limited financial and human resources, I can think of few organization that go to the extent that the CF does in helping applicants get hired, and indeed providing opportunities to those who'd be in deadend jobs on civy street.

CF recruitment waiting times are actually less on average than for local police, RCMP, fire services, or other such organizations. The RCMP has actually been studying the CF system because it is more efficient.

Toronto and Vancouver are probably highest on the poll because their populations present the largest number of issue that slow down the system, and generally place strain on the processing power of the centre; generating more paperwork, requiring more phone calls, taking up more man hours, and basically creating complications that affect all the applicants in that area; resulting in more displeasure.


Offline FreddieV

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2006, 15:30:58 »
I wasn't going to post this as a "complaint" because I'm really in no rush to get processed, but I'll post this anyways.  This is with regards to CFRC Toronto.  I signed, dated, and submitted my Forces application (along with all necessary documentation) on January 09, 2006.  I heard nothing from anyone for nearly two months.  On February 28, 2006 I called the CFRC Toronto because I was having cell phone problems, and wanted to make sure they could call me if there was a problem or a date/timing that I needed to know about, so I needed to make sure they knew my home phone number.  When I called them up and had this problem resolved, the recruiter said something along the lines of "Oh, your application is about ready to go...  You should come in and write your CFAT."  This was said as if he was surprised that my application wasn't already being processed, as if someone had forgotten all about me for nearly two months.

When I did my Forces interview the recruiter stated that had I applied back in January, I would probably already have been merit listed, or I might already have received my job offer.  I made him aware that my application was submitted on January 09.

Like I said, I'm really in no rush to get through the process here so I really had nothing to gripe about.

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2006, 23:15:55 »

Offline Hot Lips

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2006, 16:15:35 »
Well, only good to say so far for the CFRC in Hali...that is not where the problems have lie that I have experienced.

I started my application 06 June 05 and after 10 months was so frustrated I could have pulled every hair out of my head.  The process involved me chasing down the Unit Recruiter steady for any info or updates...to push for the next phase of the application...sigh.  I wrote email after email and placed calls frequently...

So after the 10 months I decided that I am hell bent on becoming a member of the CF so I contacted the Recruiter @ CFRC in Hali who has been most helpful and empathetic.  Although he could not offer an explanation for the length of time...he did offer me an alternative...

I flipped my application to a Reg application...just started that process...a little over a week ago...all of the testing is complete and paperwork...so we'll see.

His professionalism and the whole experience I have had @ CFRC Hali has been a positive one.

Just gotta hang in there...lol

HL
"We're not the public service of Canada, we're not just another department. We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people."~ Gen. Hillier - CDS

Offline VanilaGorilla

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2006, 20:11:52 »
So far so good. I have applied to a Reserve Unit in Toronto and my expereince has been great, so far at least. The night I handed in my application it was given directly to a person working at the CFRC who brought it in person. The next day I had my CFAT booked for the following week. After my test I had my interview and medical booked for the next week. I am impressed with CFRC Toronto, they seem to have their act together compared to some of the other centres listed in the posts. They were well organized and on time. I am extremly happy with CFRC Toronto.

Offline Springroll

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2006, 10:10:12 »
I am going to add to my previous complaint.
This is through CFRC Halifax.

I was re interviewed on May 15 and accepted and was told I was going to be put on the merit list.
I called up on May 25 and was directed to speak to the NCM cell Cpl. I was transferred and left a msg. Today I decided to call back in case I was forgotten. I was met with a nasty attitude, almost a "how dare you call me" type. I asked about how the process is going with my application and I was told that it was transferred to another Capt today after the other Capt had held onto it for 2 weeks. I was then told, and I quote "people in this office have not been in, been on leave, and we are opening a new office, so we do not have the time to get everything done". I asked what the process entails from here and was told that the other Capt will review it, like a quality assurance thing, and then it will be sent to the NCM cell where they will go through it and see what I need to do. I have no clue what else I need to do since I have finished all my testing and passed.

They are having serious issues with returning phone calls, and the attitude was completely uncalled for.
I am starting to feel like this is nothing but a game to them, and even now my husband has directed me to call the ombudsman about this.
I told him I will wait a little longer and see if I am met with the same attitude as I was today.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2006, 10:23:40 »
You have been reading (I hope) these forums for some time (with over 600 posts to your credit.) so I hope by now you would have a feel of how the Recruiting Process works and how it varies from place to place, applicant to applicant, and time of day, month or year.  Other factors, such as Course dates, space available, etc. also come into play.  You have just been told that the Center that you are going to, is in the middle of Leave, Postings and a major move.  Just more factors to add to the problems faced with new Recruits and the time involved to process them.  I would advise patience.  I would disregard any advice to call an Ombudsman, just because of these problems and perhaps someone having a bad hair day.  That could make matters worse.  Yes, you may get some answers by using the Ombudsman card, but in the end you may land up screwing your chances as a 'clerk' circle files your file.  If 'husband's advice' is the way he normally operates, he may find that he alienates himself from the people he is supposed to be a "team player" with in the process.  Not a good bit of advice in the long run.


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Offline kanataguy1

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Offline DAA

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Offline Goose15

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2014, 09:19:35 »
Wow. That was a lovely read.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 09:24:10 by Goose15 »
Sometimes you just gotta put your head down and keep pushing.  :tank2:


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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2014, 10:30:54 »
Yup, and it's far too kind.    :)

Far Far too kind.

Offline KerryBlue

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2014, 10:42:10 »
Imagine the reporter found her way to the application process samples and found that it actually takes closer or far over 365 days and not 166.... :facepalm:

Offline WesMurray

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2014, 13:30:37 »
maybe she meant a year and 166 days... would be a tad more accurate.
Recruiting Centre: Moncton/Online
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Marine Engineer
Trade Choice 2: Hull Tech
Trade Choice 3: Electronics Tech
Application Date: 11/27/2012
CFAT Completed : 3/19/2013
Medical Completed : 4/12/2013(got it done again to stay up to date)
Interview Completed :  1/28/2014
Merit Listed: 1/29/2014
Position offered: 4/23/2014 (Mar Eng)
Basic Training Begins: 6/16/2014

Offline MilEME09

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2014, 15:06:56 »
So it appears someone with a voice other then us has finally noticed that our recruiting system is indeed broken.

Quote
Blatchford: Inept recruiting system costing Canadian Forces

As the last Canadian soldiers returned from Afghanistan this week, those who would follow them into uniform are being stymied by a woefully inept recruiting system where it takes an average of 166 days to be processed.

That’s the ludicrous length of time it takes from the moment someone first walks into a recruiting office, wanting to sign up to become a soldier, until he or she is put on the “merit list,” which means all the necessary boxes have been checked.

The stinging criticism comes in a draft report done late last year by the Defence Science Advisory Board, a private sector group which isn’t part of the Defence Department, but advises it.

The group is composed of leaders from business and academia, who work for free. Its most recent report cited “glaring weaknesses” in Canada’s ability to respond to emergencies in the Arctic.

Postmedia News has obtained a copy of the 23-page report entitled Recruiting the Millennial Generation and dated last October.

It is the result of a request from the research arm of the Defence Department to examine how well the recruiting process is working with millennials, those born after 1981.

But in its study, the board found that grotesque delay cuts across the Canadian Forces and that the attitude at the top of the CF Recruiting Group is cavalier about attracting the vaunted “best and brightest.”

The report says that when board members visited the CFRG headquarters and met the commander, “He appeared massively unconcerned with anyone who, for whatever reason, does not get accepted, repeatedly describing all unsuccessful applicants as ‘road kill’,” the report says.

Worse, it says, the commander showed no regret that the recruiting process may be passing over those who with encouragement might become “entirely desirable candidates” or that the head office attitude could undermine recruiting efforts.

It says that while the delay might be particularly frustrating to impatient millennials, it causes the Forces to lose all kinds of candidates.

For instance, top students looking for scholarships, whose first choice is one of the Royal Military Colleges in Kingston, Ont., and Saint-Jean, Que., routinely don’t get the results of their military selection boards until months after civilian universities have made their offers.

“The advice often given these distressed and conflicted families is to lie,” the report says – in other words, to accept the civilian offers, then explain they can’t attend if they get an offer from RMC or RMC Saint-Jean.

When the board told that story to the recruiting commander, he said if students didn’t follow the advice, more “road kill” would result.

“That is not the view of this board!”, the report says.

The commander isn’t named, and it’s unclear, given the regular changes of command in the military, who was in the role at the time the board saw him.

The situation is perhaps most dire for the reserves, or militia.

These are Canada’s part-time soldiers whose members made such an enormous contribution during the country’s 12-year-long mission to Afghanistan.

During visits to CF recruiting offices – a dozen of these are slated to close – board members found recruiters had little knowledge of officer training plans for reservists.

As well, it takes an average 150 days for a reserve recruit to be processed – a situation the report calls “so egregiously distant from various public pronouncements of at least one former CDS (Chief of Defence Staff) as to how long the process should take that it saps confidence in the system and invites public derision by its clients.”

Coincidentally, Reserves 2000, a lobby group formed to fight against cuts to the militia, recently told Defence Minister Rob Nicholson that 2013-14 “is shaping up to be a disaster due to recruit quotas that do not offset the rate of attrition, recruiting centre closures … and long-standing inefficiencies in the enrollment process.”

The information is contained in a brief given Nicholson Dec. 12 last year.

The paper resulted from a meeting in Toronto last November of 30 former senior reserve leaders from across Canada and supporters.

At the meeting, Reserves 2000 members identified the chief problem — recruiting quotas are set artificially low and the force’s bunged-up system can’t manage to meet even those.

John Selkirk, Reserve 2000’s executive-director, also appeared in December before the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence.

There, he called the situation “a crisis” and said the CF Recruiting Group is in “some turmoil, I guess is a kind word.”

As of this fall, halfway through the fiscal year, units should have signed up about half their allotments, but were at just 21 per cent.

The best bet now is that this will mean reserve units across the country will be short 700 to 750 soldiers.

The danger is that defence planners may seize upon the unmet quotas and further scale down the numbers of new recruits units are allotted in the next year.

Selkirk appeared to warn the committee of fudged numbers.

For instance, he said when the department says reserve pay costs about $587 million, at least half of that isn’t for pure reservists – called Class As, they are mostly students who put in a night a week at their units – but rather for so-called full-time reservists, or Class Bs, who are often assigned to headquarters.

While the advisory board said the military is still attracting fine candidates, the length of time it takes to sign up “will not stand the CF in good stead with the Millennial Generation.” It also says that recruiting group is “all too often … an afterthought at best and at worst a dumping ground for lesser performers…”

The report recommends the military offer conditional acceptances to good candidates, convene selection boards so that applicants can get their answer at the same time civilian universities may offer them places, and generally change its collective attitude.

Recruiters don’t have just one customer, the board says, but also “an implicit secondary role of connecting with Canadians.”

Applicants who aren’t accepted “are not ‘road kill’ … They are Canadians with a strong interest in the CF and who may, at a future date, become serving members or simply engage in public discourse favourable to the profession of arms in Canada.”

cblatchford@postmedia.com



Source: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/Inept+recruiting+system+costing+Canadian+Forces+kinds/9635246/story.html
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Offline ExRCDcpl

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2014, 16:00:09 »
They've proven it can be done a lot faster.....when I went through the recruiting process in early 2007 the date from application to leaving for BMQ was just over a week.

Offline Rohandro

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2014, 16:23:24 »
They've proven it can be done a lot faster.....when I went through the recruiting process in early 2007 the date from application to leaving for BMQ was just over a week.

 ??? Where can I get some of this, who did you bribe and how much did you give them LOL
Recruiting Centre: Toronto
Regular/ Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade choice 1: Infantry
Trade choice 2: Artillery
Trade Choice 3: Armoured
Applied: Aug 02, 2013
First contact: Sept 04, 2013
Dropped off security forms to CFRC: Sept 07, 2013
CFAT: Oct 22,2013 (Passed)
Medical: Nov 04, 2013
Interview: Nov 13, 2013
Merit Listed: Feb 6, 2014
Position offered: Artillery
Enrollment/swearing in: June 4, 2014
BMQ: June 16, 2014

Offline SJantzi

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2014, 16:30:06 »

??? Where can I get some of this, who did you bribe and how much did you give them LOL

Seconded.. Wow total time so far is 3 years >.>
Recruiting Center: Kitchener > Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1: Infantry
Application Date: August 2011
First Contact: January 2012
CFAT Completed : February 2012
Medical Completed: June 2013
Interview completed: July 2013
Merit Listed: September 2013
Position Offered: August 6th, 2014 (Infantry Soldier)
Enrollment/Swear In: September 10, 2014
Basic Training Begins: September 15, 2014

Offline KerryBlue

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2014, 16:38:02 »
??? Where can I get some of this, who did you bribe and how much did you give them LOL

During the height of Canada's war in Afghanistan this wasn't unheard of. I know a few people who were between a few weeks and a month. Peace time army with budget cuts is what we are in right now..

Offline verstrat10

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2014, 16:40:43 »
This is actually mind boggling, My process from start to finish was about ~5 months... and i had to go to Aircrew Selection. It makes me feel awful for the guys who have to wait that long.

Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2014, 16:52:21 »
Sometimes delays are systemic, other times the fault lies with the applicants.  Hint...if you people can't read or understand the documents you have submitted, or you can't follow simple directions and fill out forms completely, the people handling your file WILL move on, and probably get around to looking at it on a Friday afternoon. 

I saw and experienced both.  As a file manager, the applicants who made my job easier, I moved through faster.  Applicants who made life difficult....went to the bottom of the pile.   Most other recruiters and file managers work the same way.

Offline Griffon

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2014, 16:57:36 »
Applicants, and the public in general, need to keep a few things in mind when talking about the recruiting process:

1) The economy is weak, while the CAF is simultaneously slowing recruiting.  This means more applications for fewer positions, meaning it will take longer to get in.
2) You are applying for a position in the military, not at Wal-Mart.  There is a significant amount of information goes through for each applicant, and this takes time.
3) The CAF recruits in a manner opposite of most employers: They accept and process all applications regardless of whether they are hiring.  The benefit to the applicant is that you will get processed, but you may have an excessive wait time as a result.
4) For people that say they have had an application for 3 years - is that a single application, or have you re-applied? The average is per application, not per applicant.
5) RMC entry is once per year.  People who apply early will be in the system longer.
6) Aircrew selection, MP boards, MARS boards - all the supplementary selection programs - extend timelines and impose selection windows, much like RMC does.  This extends wait times as well.

Is the system perfect? No.  Can parts of it be fixed? Yes, and I think they are trying to do that while keeping it as fair as possible.  I'm not sure how many thousands of applications are processed each year, but it's expensive, time consuming, and difficult to do in a manner that is fair to all involved.  And as Hatchet Man said, don't expect the RC to help if you can't help yourself...a positive attitude and a show of tempered determination can get you a long way. 

I'm afraid you just have to accept that, due to the nature of the occupation, it's going to take longer to get into the CAF than it'll take to get a job as a pipe-fitter or most other skilled trades.  But if you have the patience to wait out the process, that's just one more positive character trait that the CAF can expect you to bring to the table.
Dream no small dreams for they have no power to move the hearts of men - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2014, 17:08:58 »
If we "only accepted the best" we wouldn't need warrior platoon.
There are no wolves on Fenris