Author Topic: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split  (Read 104382 times)

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Offline DAA

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2014, 17:19:30 »
Applicants, and the public in general, need to keep a few things in mind when talking about the recruiting process:

1) The economy is weak, while the CAF is simultaneously slowing recruiting.  This means more applications for fewer positions, meaning it will take longer to get in.
2) You are applying for a position in the military, not at Wal-Mart.  There is a significant amount of information goes through for each applicant, and this takes time.
3) The CAF recruits in a manner opposite of most employers: They accept and process all applications regardless of whether they are hiring.  The benefit to the applicant is that you will get processed, but you may have an excessive wait time as a result.
4) For people that say they have had an application for 3 years - is that a single application, or have you re-applied? The average is per application, not per applicant.
5) RMC entry is once per year.  People who apply early will be in the system longer.
6) Aircrew selection, MP boards, MARS boards - all the supplementary selection programs - extend timelines and impose selection windows, much like RMC does.  This extends wait times as well.

Is the system perfect? No.  Can parts of it be fixed? Yes, and I think they are trying to do that while keeping it as fair as possible.  I'm not sure how many thousands of applications are processed each year, but it's expensive, time consuming, and difficult to do in a manner that is fair to all involved.  And as Hatchet Man said, don't expect the RC to help if you can't help yourself...a positive attitude and a show of tempered determination can get you a long way. 

I'm afraid you just have to accept that, due to the nature of the occupation, it's going to take longer to get into the CAF than it'll take to get a job as a pipe-fitter or most other skilled trades.  But if you have the patience to wait out the process, that's just one more positive character trait that the CAF can expect you to bring to the table.

To address your comments........

1) Nope.  Recruiting numbers are consistent and based on forecasted attrition rates.  Applications are also steady and don't really fluctuate either.
2) Yes, there is a fair bit of information which is collected but the problem has nothing to do with volume.
3) Nope.  The CF does not process "every" application and some applicants will never be contacted
4) Most applicants, are not entirely "truthful" when they express their "time in the system" dissatisfaction.  There is usually a reason why, they just don't mention that.
5) True.  But people who apply early for ROTP end up having their application "shelved" until a later date.
6) Not a large group to draw conclusions from but yes, those occupations do have additional screening requirements.

They had a reasonable system in place but then decided to change to something else, so the wait times may very well increase or if may go the way of a "noncommittal" type of civilian model, "Thanks for applying and writing our tests.  Don't call us, we'll call you."
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Offline Griffon

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2014, 17:21:33 »
Physical fitness is no longer assessed at the recruiter level, as it was deemed that too many otherwise strong applicants were discarded due to their lack of fitness.  Someone had the bright idea that the CAF could indoctrinate fitness into their lives at the taxpayer's expense.  I do not agree with this opinion.  I believe that an individual's intrinsic motivation to maintain fitness is a positive asset to an applicant, and that blaming the lack of fitness on society as a whole is a cop-out.  I am sure that Warrior Platoon has turned out a number of successful, productive, fit troops. I'm just not sure it was the best idea to remove fitness as a selection criteria, or that Warrior Platoon is really worth its cost.

But I digress.  Warrior Platoon hasn't made it harder to get in, it's made it easier.  Point for those that think it takes too long to get in...
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Offline Griffon

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2014, 17:28:09 »
Quote
Nope.  Recruiting numbers are consistent and based on forecasted attrition rates.  Applications are also steady and don't really fluctuate either.

I was referring more to the comment of how quick it was to get in during Afghanistan c. 2007, and not so much the last two or three years.  The economy has really fallen off since then, and I was under the impression that intake has as well.

Quote
3) Nope.  The CF does not process "every" application and some applicants will never be contacted

I was of the understanding that applications were never rejected outright, as in no " Sorry, we aren't hiring right now, you can hold on to that piece of paper.  Have a nice day."I am aware that not all applicants are selected for further selection (i.e. CFAT, Medical, Interview), am I mistaken on this?

I do hope that the recruiting system can be made a little more efficient, we'll just have to wait and see what the changes bring us I guess.

Edit: My apologies for jumping in here, I just get frustrated at the lack of perspective many seem to have on what they're signing up for.  It should take longer than two weeks to get in, IMHO.  I'll jump back into my lane now...
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Offline Remius

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2014, 17:50:33 »
CFRG...   :rage:
Optio

Offline DAA

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2014, 17:55:32 »
I was referring more to the comment of how quick it was to get in during Afghanistan c. 2007, and not so much the last two or three years.  The economy has really fallen off since then, and I was under the impression that intake has as well.

I was of the understanding that applications were never rejected outright, as in no " Sorry, we aren't hiring right now, you can hold on to that piece of paper.  Have a nice day."I am aware that not all applicants are selected for further selection (i.e. CFAT, Medical, Interview), am I mistaken on this?

I do hope that the recruiting system can be made a little more efficient, we'll just have to wait and see what the changes bring us I guess.

Edit: My apologies for jumping in here, I just get frustrated at the lack of perspective many seem to have on what they're signing up for.  It should take longer than two weeks to get in, IMHO.  I'll jump back into my lane now...

Intake did drop a fair bit but we still need in the area of 4.000+ a year, give or take.  Afghanistan really didn't play that big an impact, it was more the accelerated rate of attrition due to a boom in the economy out west that was more attractive to CF members.

The only thing an applicant will get today, is CFAT/TSD testing, nothing more other than, we'll call you.....maybe and even the testing isn't guaranteed.  No customer service that you or I experienced when we joined.  Just a simple "Thanks for showing up."

What frustrates the applicants most, is being told to expect a call and the call doesn't come, we'll send you an email and the email doesn't come, told to call back in x weeks and then told to call back in x months, told they did "well" when they really didn't, told process X will take 2-4 weeks when it's more like 2-4 months and the list goes on and on.

If only an applicant could get a "straight" or "reasonable" answer, it would probably help to solve allot of the problems.  But then again, managing applicants expectations, is not the strong suit of recruiting.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2014, 19:30:02 »
But then again, managing applicants expectations, is not the strong suit of recruiting.

But mangling is  ;D
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Offline AlphaBravo

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2014, 19:36:29 »
Intake did drop a fair bit but we still need in the area of 4.000+ a year, give or take.  Afghanistan really didn't play that big an impact, it was more the accelerated rate of attrition due to a boom in the economy out west that was more attractive to CF members.

The only thing an applicant will get today, is CFAT/TSD testing, nothing more other than, we'll call you.....maybe and even the testing isn't guaranteed.  No customer service that you or I experienced when we joined.  Just a simple "Thanks for showing up."

What frustrates the applicants most, is being told to expect a call and the call doesn't come, we'll send you an email and the email doesn't come, told to call back in x weeks and then told to call back in x months, told they did "well" when they really didn't, told process X will take 2-4 weeks when it's more like 2-4 months and the list goes on and on.

If only an applicant could get a "straight" or "reasonable" answer, it would probably help to solve allot of the problems.  But then again, managing applicants expectations, is not the strong suit of recruiting.

I think I can speak for myself and a few other applicants when I say its fairly off putting to hear, "Oh we'll get back to you within a month or so to schedule x appointment" and when you email your File Manager a month and x amount of days later because you still haven't heard anything and your references haven't been contacted you get the generic response. "we don't have an estimated date, but don't worry you're still being processed." Steward my main trade is in-demand and from what I heard it still has positions open for this fiscal year, but of course the lack of response from my Recruiting Center is frustrating and I can almost bet I probably wont be contacted for a few months. (But trying to keep my hopes up.)
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Offline Transporter

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2014, 19:44:30 »
Many years ago, I considered leaving the CF to join the Australian Defence Force. I was given an ADF recruitment web address by an ADF contact I had met here in Canada and I sent them an email with a bunch of questions about how the enrollment process works, etc. I had a response in less than 24 hrs, complete with explicit guidance on everything I needed to do to make it happen. I was also provided a POC name and phone number should I have any additional questions. I thought that was pretty slick.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2014, 19:56:27 »
Many years ago, I considered leaving the CF to join the Australian Defence Force. I was given an ADF recruitment web address by an ADF contact I had met here in Canada and I sent them an email with a bunch of questions about how the enrollment process works, etc. I had a response in less than 24 hrs, complete with explicit guidance on everything I needed to do to make it happen. I was also provided a POC name and phone number should I have any additional questions. I thought that was pretty slick.

Unfortunately that isn't always the case anymore, according to a son of a co-worker here.  His application to join the ADF has been over a year with much of the same issues that have been mentioned in this thread.  I think this is a relatively new thing, but I've gathered that the ADF has left Recruiting to another federal department and so has little (if any) control over processing, etc.  There are ADF members in recruiting, but they are basically there to answer questions regarding the military.

Lateral transfers, what little there is these days, may be a different story but even then, those have dried up quite a bit (at least for the RAAF.) 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 20:00:13 by Dimsum »
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Offline Mac Isaac

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2014, 20:06:28 »
My brother joined for ACISS trade in summer 2013 and was in BMQ by September but he was from a rural area, where apparently that's where CAF hires more from, (history aspect compared to inner cities) which gives me hope that maybe its just a backlog of recruits. I applied in Jan, and my file manager said I am on the list to be called after April 1st for medical and interview - I figure its just a slow time as of lately, but cannot speak for those who have had to wait over a year or two.
Recruiting Centre: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1:Avionics Tech
Trade Choice 2: AWS Tech
Trade Choice 3: ACISS
Application Date (Online): Jan 14th 2014
Documents Received: Jan 17th 2014
First Contact: Jan 15 2014
Second Contact: Feb 4 2014
CFAT: Feb 08 2014 (PASSED)
Medical: TBD
Interview: TBD
Merit Listed: TBD
Position offered: TBD
Sworn in: TBD
BMQ: TBD

Offline KerryBlue

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2014, 20:33:11 »
I think I can speak for myself and a few other applicants when I say its fairly off putting to hear, "Oh we'll get back to you within a month or so to schedule x appointment" "we don't have an estimated date, but don't worry you're still being processed."

This is all you get from recruiters now a day. I was told 2 weeks in October, came back and was told whoops we forgot to do you background check come back in a month. A month later, whoops new process we'll call you. Granted I lost most of January waiting for ROTP. But still I'm goingon 3-5 months  of waiting for an interview and medical, and no I did not require PERSEC or anything else. I'm coming up on one year now, with another 4-5 months at least of waiting.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 20:37:43 by KerryBlue »

Offline x-grunt

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2014, 14:23:31 »
Ach, it wasn't until I read this article and this thread that I realized how bitterly disappointed I still am about my own experience.  >:(
I have to say the reporter was *far* more gentle then I would be.

I was in the recruiting stream for nearly 3 years, then I was mistakenly turned down a few days - days! - before the Basic Officer training I was *already* loaded on. The decision was reversed but no one told me for over a year, after which my file was already closed and my life had taken a different turn. That was 7 years ago now, and at my current age enrolling, while technically possible, would be a joke (I'm 54 now. Who needs a 54 year old officer cadet or private?).

I hope the system has improved, or will be.

edit to add: Sorry, I realize this was a bit of a rant. I feel better now and feel free to ignore it.

Offline DAA

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2014, 15:56:40 »
I hope the system has improved, or will be.

I'm sure they're working on it right now.    :facepalm:

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Offline Mac Isaac

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2014, 16:11:08 »
When I applied in January - a month had passed and still did not hear back for a CFAT booking, so I decided to email my first contact and within a day, a Cpl had called me and sched. a CFAT booking, another month went by and I had walked into my recruitment center and asked to make sure my trade choices were correct, turns out they had totally different trades down (only because I had made the mistakes of applying as an officer online) instead of NCM. When I called my file manager (which I do not do often) I had told him that I don't want to be "that guy" calling in every week to see an update even though it was my second time contacting him, and we both had a good laugh that there are people far worst then myself calling in everyday asking for an update which makes me feel for what some recruiters or file managers have to go through on a daily basis - he was kind enough to tell me that I was on the list for medical and interview after april 1st (new fiscal year) but to come back in April as he is leaving and his files handed off to someone else. Every situation is different but I think some file managers like to see that applicants take charge when needed to make sure everything is in good shape on their application. Even tho the desk attendant had sched. me an interview and medical that week and it was cancelled the next day, I will wait patiently for April to call back or even go in to see if there is anything I can do to get an interview and medical booked. 

DISCLAIMER
(What I write should not be taken as advise, just stating my own personal experience)
Recruiting Centre: CFRC Hamilton
Regular/Reserve: Regular
Officer/NCM: NCM
Trade Choice 1:Avionics Tech
Trade Choice 2: AWS Tech
Trade Choice 3: ACISS
Application Date (Online): Jan 14th 2014
Documents Received: Jan 17th 2014
First Contact: Jan 15 2014
Second Contact: Feb 4 2014
CFAT: Feb 08 2014 (PASSED)
Medical: TBD
Interview: TBD
Merit Listed: TBD
Position offered: TBD
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BMQ: TBD

Offline i_want_a_pmq

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #64 on: March 20, 2014, 18:48:16 »
That was 7 years ago now, and at my current age enrolling, while technically possible, would be a joke (I'm 54 now. Who needs a 54 year old officer cadet or private?).

It's never too late to try, unless you actually reach retirement age (60). I definitely saw a few older folks in Saint-Jean. In the Basic Up: Reloaded series, there was a guy in his 50s going through BMQ.

Offline ballz

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2014, 18:59:59 »
Couple the terrible recruiting system with the inability to get recruits through their initial MOC training... and it would make a great case study for a Master's level Human Resources class.
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Offline DAA

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2014, 19:18:04 »
Couple the terrible recruiting system with the inability to get recruits through their initial MOC training... and it would make a great case study for a Master's level Human Resources class.

It's not exactly rocket science but more like "reverse engineering".

The occupational MA identifies the intake requirements, the TA (ie; trg schools) receive those numbers, plans crses accordingly and then notifies recruiting of the QL3 crse start dates.  Recruiting then enrols by occupation based on TA schedules and BMOQ/BMQ dates.

Offr Occ Trg/QL3 Crse Start Date - Duration of BMOQ/BMQ - 60 days (give or take) = Date of Employment Offer with enrolment a week or two prior to BMOQ/BMQ start.  Atleast that is the way it worked "circa 1980's", before computers and planning that all on paper.

I think this kind of thing is probably taught at the undergrad level as a "basic" HR competency.
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Offline d_edwards

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2014, 20:33:06 »
It appears to me that part of the problem is bottlenecks at the medical file reveiw, and security/background checks.    I just did my file update and now have to provide another list of references.   They will get the same list as before with a similar result, but will still take time to process.  My medical update worries me because I am on the Reserve Supp list.  For some reason the CFRC det has to have my medical done at the base hospital and the wait for an appointment there can, and has been months.   

I am sure things can be done more efficiently but there does not seem to be any incentive or drive to do so.   




Offline Tcm621

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2014, 01:36:45 »
The single easiest thing they could do to speed times up would be to have the candidate hand in his application, walk over to a computer, and do the CFAT. Just like at the DMV. Put the two together and the file moves forward. Not only would it cut down waits by a few weeks to a month, it would give the initial reviewer a way to prioritize cases. If you need a bunch of AVS or Naval electronic techs, you can focus on the applicants with high aptitudes in the required areas.

Offline DAA

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2014, 08:53:49 »
The single easiest thing they could do to speed times up would be to have the candidate hand in his application, walk over to a computer, and do the CFAT. Just like at the DMV. Put the two together and the file moves forward. Not only would it cut down waits by a few weeks to a month, it would give the initial reviewer a way to prioritize cases. If you need a bunch of AVS or Naval electronic techs, you can focus on the applicants with high aptitudes in the required areas.

Ummmmm, that's pretty much what the process is already.

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Offline Nemo888

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2014, 09:07:20 »
It's always been like this as far back as I can remember. Generation before sounds a little easier.  Signed a contract, got a wad of cash and just enough time to blow it before you had to show up for basic. Back then you could still ask the judge to sign up instead of jail time. Most of those guys must be 70 at least now. Is it just me or has the military become less fun? My God those guys had stories.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2014, 09:18:46 »
It's always been like this as far back as I can remember. Generation before sounds a little easier.  Signed a contract, got a wad of cash and just enough time to blow it before you had to show up for basic. Back then you could still ask the judge to sign up instead of jail time. Most of those guys must be 70 at least now. Is it just me or has the military become less fun? My God those guys had stories.

 ::)

Back then we did not have The "Igor Gouzenko Affair", nor 911, nor the requirement that all members hold a Level II Security Clearance to operate highly technical weapons, communication and electronic systems.  Back in the day, you only had to have one heart, two lungs, two arms, two legs, two eyes and ears, and be able to follow orders.  Back in the day we did not have sophisticated computers tracking our everyday lives.  People actually did outdoor activities.  People actually wanted to work and prove that they could, not just feel that they should be entitled to work.  A high level of education was not required in those simpler times.  Yes, back in the day recruiting was much simpler.  Sorry, but times have changed.  If you don't have the capability to learn, are not in the best of health, and can not attain a Security Clearance, you are not likely to get into the Canadian Armed Forces of today.........And guess what?  It takes time to verify that you are what you claim to be.
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Offline Hatchet Man

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2014, 11:05:00 »
If you don't have the capability to learn, are not in the best of health, and can not attain a Security Clearance, you are not likely to get into the Canadian Armed Forces of today.........And guess what?  It takes time to verify that you are what you claim to be.

 :goodpost:

Offline Goose15

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2014, 13:03:13 »
::)

Back then we did not have The "Igor Gouzenko Affair", nor 911, nor the requirement that all members hold a Level II Security Clearance to operate highly technical weapons, communication and electronic systems.  Back in the day, you only had to have one heart, two lungs, two arms, two legs, two eyes and ears, and be able to follow orders.  Back in the day we did not have sophisticated computers tracking our everyday lives.  People actually did outdoor activities.  People actually wanted to work and prove that they could, ]not just feel that they should be entitled to work. A high level of education was not required in those simpler times.  Yes, back in the day recruiting was much simpler.  Sorry, but times have changed.  If you don't have the capability to learn, are not in the best of health, and can not attain a Security Clearance, you are not likely to get into the Canadian Armed Forces of today.........And guess what?  It takes time to verify that you are what you claim to be.

I would almost be inclined to agree with you GW if not for two things in your post. I completely submit to the fact things are more intricate nowadays and this requires applicants to be stronger, more educated and more competitive overall. Also, with the necessity of certain levels if Security Clearance in places which were not (or rarely?) required in previous years, it makes good sense things would take longer.

This is where I have an issue though:

You are taking the bad eggs who seem to feel entitled and putting a blanket over all of us. Frankly, I know full well (as well as many others including personal friends who are applying/have already applied) the CAF owes me nothing. In fact I should be the one owing the CAF as they are a key factor in my everyday freedom.

Secondly (and more about this particular thread): the fact things take time is understandable, completely 100%. I have worked in jobs where things take time, that is just how it is sometimes. The issue arises when it's not just a time consuming item such as a background check but recruiters and/or file managers losing key information or not contacting you to inform you of a new process or required change in your application. I know that many recruiters like an applicant to take charge so (especially during my ROTP app) with my background checks I would call in every 3-4 weeks to be sure everything was going smoothly with my background checks as I had spent time in the US for college. My file manager appreciating the attentiveness said they were just awaiting a response from the QR&O but everything was just fine. I now have a new file manager and my new file manager informed me no one ever submitted my checks despite having been told they were just waiting to receive word. That is of course ignoring the fact I had to drive an hour to my CFRC multiple times because they lost the BG check multiple times. That is why I became frustrated; not because things were slow as in many other application processes but due to the errors that I believe would be considered intolerable in any workplace. I have full respect for all serving members including those who have operated my file but to say that what occurred is just "a time-consuming process" would be a poor description.
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Offline Emilio

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Re: CFRG and the broken recruiting system-Split
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2014, 15:38:10 »
You are taking the bad eggs who seem to feel entitled and putting a blanket over all of us. Frankly, I know full well (as well as many others including personal friends who are applying/have already applied) the CAF owes me nothing. In fact I should be the one owing the CAF as they are a key factor in my everyday freedom.

Thank you.  :salute:
"Nobody's right if everybody's wrong"