Author Topic: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities  (Read 826886 times)

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Sam69

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #100 on: April 13, 2005, 18:51:47 »
I'm registered to go and hope to have time tomorrow or Friday. If I see anything of interest or relevance I'll report it here.

Sam

Sam69

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #101 on: April 15, 2005, 17:11:45 »
Sorry to say, I couldn't spare the time to cross the street and go to CANSEC so I can't give you any update on what the FWSAR competitors were peddling at their booths.

Maybe someone else got a chance to tour the show and can provide their impressions.

Sam

Offline COBRA-6

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #102 on: April 15, 2005, 17:53:20 »
I made it, saw the C-27J booth, didn't see the CASA... but then again being an infantry officer, I was more interested in the SIMUNITION (belt-fed simunition is gonna hurt!) and EOTech booths, so I could missed it. In the brochure the C-27J folks were giving out they had a direct comparison of the two aircraft in a bunch of areas (range, payload, performance, dimension, etc) and the C-27 was superior in every field...
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Offline onewingwonder

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #103 on: April 17, 2005, 08:40:12 »
The only superiority CASA/EADS has in this competition is marketing, including the "write your MP" tactic. :rage:
If we refuse to learn from history, we are destined to repeat it.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2005, 14:08:01 »
It is my understanding that, despite the very impressive technical advances of the Dynavert, the reality was that it had virtually no internal cargo capacity (the area behind the pilots  largely occupied by the mechanical mixing and wing tilt mechanicals) and therefore generated little military nor commercial interest. As well, limitations in material technologies at the time would have made it very difficult to scale the aircraft up.

Sam

I have a picture in a copy of the ADTB showing at least 17 infantrymen double timing on or off a Dynavert. While this may have been a staged photograph (packing the troops inside like a "clown car", I think this was supposed to be a demonstration of what the plane could do.

The Dynavert also had one huge advantage the V-22 does not: it could fix the wings in the "down" position and take off and land like an ordinary aircraft. This greatly increased the range, and took a lot of stress off the system. A modern version of the Dynavert would have a much more refined wing tilt mechanism, and material science has come a long way since the 1970s.

Maybe SB, as the arch historian, would like to start a thread on this plane?
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Offline jmacleod

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2005, 14:50:11 »
HMCS Bras D'or failed because in it's role in ASW it was extremely noisy at sea - interesting point
for Naval Airmen - the Rolls-Royce Griffon engines in the decommissioned vessel were given to
the Canadian Warplane Heritage Foundation (CWHF) Mount Hope, ON, for installation in the
Supermarine "Seafire" restoration and the Supermarine "Firefly" upgrade. Engines were shipped
to Hamilton via an Canadian Navy destroyer of the period 1988-1990, thanks to the efforts of LGen Larry
Ashley former BC, 12 Wing (later CAS) and Chief of Naval Ops, Halifax NS. Regards, MacLeod

Modified to reflect that there is no RCN any longer.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2005, 16:23:12 by Ex-Dragoon »

Offline Blue Max

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2005, 15:29:36 »
Interesting info on the CL-84 Dynavert. It sure sounds to me like Canada could not see the potential to carry on with the development of a revolutionary design, hence it disappeared from Canadian aviation only to reapear as the Osprey V-22.

Dare I say this sounds like another Canadian ARROW story ::)
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Offline kj_gully

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #107 on: April 21, 2005, 10:55:54 »
It seems to me this thread has gone off the tracks, I was hoping with the new defence policy review that talk would refocus contributors on reality, and stop waxing nostalgic for the optimistic 60's when Canada was spending big money on R&D. Look, I want a plane before I retire, which will be in like 10 more years. The Dynavert does not exist. The osprey (V-22?) does not exist, at least not in the scale we need. Apparently the USCG is looking at a smaller executive version which may be viable in about 10 more years.It is too little, and way too complicated for our Airforce to use and maintain, and probably even scarier to fly in than the Cormorant. Canada has left the door open for a CASA replacement for FWSAR and twin Otter fleet, by considering  allocating more SAR resources to the North. I am looking forward with mixed emotion to the opportunity to be posted to Resolute for a couple years. I hope that you learn thru this thread, that there is no clear-cut perfect replacement for our Sar plane. Being posted to  Comox, home of the Tatonka, I look forward to a pressurized cabin someday, and a palletized cargo system to reduce time consuming gear reconfigs. Like I said before, once onscene, I want to be able to stand up to do my work, instead of hunched over like a dog humping a football,or worse, crawling like a Buff pilot after a mess dinner ;D. It will be great to talk to a doctor from anywhere in Canada, using satelitte comms. Heck, it will be great to talk to anyone down in the hills on radios that aren't tube and resistors, or string and soup cans. I don't think the C27 is a perfect plane for SAR in Canada, but we never get perfect, anyway. It is going to come to us as a steel cylinder, and will take another decade to properly outfit, like always. But I think it will look great on the Ramp in Comox, or Churhill, or Alert painted yellow, and just as good painted Camo in Kabul.

Offline 404SqnAVSTeach

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2005, 10:40:00 »
The only superiority CASA/EADS has in this competition is marketing, including the "write your MP" tactic. :rage:

Do they really say to write to my MP...  :threat:   That is just wrong.. :skull: . Politicians should not be involved in Class A procurements... :salute:
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

Offline sandhurst91

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #109 on: May 17, 2005, 16:43:47 »
"Politicians should not be involved in Class A procurements"? ? ? ?

???? (huh?) ????

I may not win much support here - and am willing to be convinced differently... however, it is ultimately the Canadian taxpayers' money that is being spent, no?... if DND were run like a business, it would be up to DND bureaucrats et al to recommend the most appropriate options for maintaining a level of service... and then the CEO/Board - as representatives of "shareholders" (taxpayers) to make the final decision - hopefully an informed one. I would expect my political representative to ask tough questions of DND and to ensure they have all the information they need to approve such a massive expenditure... am I wrong?

update from the various contenders:

EADS CASA C-295 to demonstrate Search and Rescue strengths on Canadian tour (www.c-295.ca)

EADS CASA establishes permanent presence in Canada to pursue Canadian military air transport contracts (www.c-295.ca)

Global Military Aircraft Systems' C-27J Spartan Takes Flight In DC Area (www.c-27j.ca)








Offline Inch

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #110 on: May 17, 2005, 16:51:05 »
sandhurst, it's not about asking tough questions, it's about politicians getting their dirty hands into the process and railroading us into getting a substandard piece of kit because it benefits a government friendly company. DND contracts should not be used to prop of failing companies, Bombardier's Iltis ring a bell? Or how about the LSVW? I'm sure people could name many more.
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Offline Slim

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #111 on: May 17, 2005, 17:00:25 »
The Govt. has proven over and over again that they cannot be trusted whare the procurement of military equipement is concerned. They have, over and over again, turned the wholoe process into a political agenda of rewarding federal defense contracts to whatever company can kiss their political asses the best...With kickbacks I'm sure (although I have no proof...I'll let Gomery find it for me! ::))

The CF should be able to say what it needs and make a list of what equipment will do the job the best and how much of it we need to do the job properly. Then, if they want to build it here it has to be built to EXACT SPECIFICATIONS (see the Iltis!) on time and within the approved (military approved) standard, and with complete DND oversite!

Slim
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Offline Ex-Dragoon

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #112 on: May 17, 2005, 21:55:53 »
Wasn't the Griffon and untendered project as well. Needed but no competetion just picked out.?
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Offline jmacleod

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #113 on: May 17, 2005, 22:41:00 »
DND CF want the C27J "Spartan" - do not see any political implications here, with either aircraft.
Why would one need a FE on the C27J? - just asking. Finding the money for this Project is the
big question in our nation's capital.  Griffon purchase was a political decision, but then, so was
the F-18A and the F-104 - been around the aerospace trade for many,many years; never saw
anything as complex as the current MHP. MacLeod

Offline kj_gully

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #114 on: May 18, 2005, 00:19:01 »
In my experience, the FE is often the most important person on an aircraft. He can calmly go thru a checklist to ensure the smell of smoke the crew is anxious about really is the crew fan and not the flare box, can fix the port engine ignitor so we don't have to spend the night in Lillooet, makes a damn fine cup of coffee, is an awesome spotter, won't leave me without dropping my B-25 kit and the SAR tent, stays back to do his AB checks and make sure we get gassed up while the rest of the crew orders lunch. The Navigator and Loadmaster on the other hand......not so much. Fixed wing pilots think they can't make do without a Navigator, but my Rotary wing crewmates get along just fine without them.

Offline Civi U(ntrained)

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #115 on: May 18, 2005, 01:07:53 »
Fixed wing pilots think they can't make do without a Navigator.
From what I have heard, ANAVs' responsibilities have been drastically reduced, and that all that fixed wing pilots need is a GPS instead of a navigator.

Offline onewingwonder

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #116 on: May 18, 2005, 08:36:11 »
Until the GPS packs it in. It is far from the be all and end all.

For RW SAR the RAF operated for years with either a Nav or AEOp in the left-hand seat. Support helicopters the same, Chinook, Puma. Dumping important crew positions such as FE for "budgetary" reasons is ridiculous. Safety should be paramount. The RAF are finding this to be true with the C-130J. Two pilots, two loadmasters. The LMs are now somewhat overtasked as one is normally in the cockpit helping with nav, radios, etc.
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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #117 on: May 18, 2005, 19:18:29 »
Finding the money for this Project is the big question in our nation's capital.  

We already have $1.4 Billion sitting in the proverbial bank account, collecting interest.  This was set aside in last year's budget.
Per Ardua Ad Astra

Offline sandhurst91

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #118 on: May 29, 2005, 15:50:59 »
Some good close-up snaps of the C-295 in Victoria - inside and out - from their Canadian tour web site (www.c-295.ca)...
I'm posting one that I had to compress... there's others... all high-res...
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 15:53:50 by sandhurst91 »

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #119 on: May 30, 2005, 00:29:09 »
Quote
From what I have heard, ANAVs' responsibilities have been drastically reduced, and that all that fixed wing pilots need is a GPS instead of a navigator.

You heard wrong, sonny.

I may not do alot of actual "enroute navigation" anymore, thanks to GPS, but I do a fair bit of "tactical navigation" .  I am also up to my eyeballs in tactics and radios and doing what I actually get paid to do- coordinate operations. 

Any moron can fly a plane from point A to point B on air routes unaided.  It is when you get down in a tight mountain valley doing a SAR that a Nav (and an FE and Loadies and Sar techs) becomes very useful as you try and:

A- find what you are looking for.

B- avoid hitting a mountain while doing so.

It is a team effort in an aircraft.  No one trade can do it all alone.  You may do well to remember that as you progress thru your training.

Cheers

Offline CloudCover

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #120 on: May 30, 2005, 12:46:14 »

Any moron can fly a plane from point A to point B on air routes unaided.  It is when you get down in a tight mountain valley doing a SAR that a Nav (and an FE and Loadies and Sar techs) becomes very useful as you try and:

A- find what you are looking for.

B- avoid hitting a mountain while doing so.

It is a team effort in an aircraft.  No one trade can do it all alone.  You may do well to remember that as you progress thru your training.

Cheers

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Offline sandhurst91

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #121 on: May 31, 2005, 09:19:38 »
OK... so what're these guys really doing...? me, I'm not sure what role organisations like CASARA should be playing in this..???

FYI...pulled this off the Whitehorse entry of www.c-295.ca... follow the tour links

The EADS CASA C-295 team learned about Yukon's rich aviation history and Yukon Search and Rescue (SAR) providers had a chance to see the C-295 maneuver over the lakes and mountains surrounding Whitehorse â “ as the C-295 Canadian tour continued with a two-day visit to Whitehorse.

The C-295 team hosted a reception Sunday night at the Yukon Transportation Museum, where they met pilots and spotters with the Civil Air Search and Rescue Association (CASARA) â “ Yukon, including President Gerald Bruce and the Yukon's most senior CASARA pilot Murray Biggin, also an avid aviation historian. Other guests included a group from Yukon regional airline Air North, local fire department officials and other emergency service providers, and the President of the Northern Air Transport Association, Hugh Kitchen.

The CASARA group was out in full force on Monday for a demonstration flight in the C-295 with Murray Biggin taking the right seat. The flight path took the SAR aircraft south of Whitehorse to Watson River Valley, along Gray Ridge over Bennett Lake to the Klondike town of Carcross, returning low level through several other remote mountain valleys.

With his knowledge of â Å“all-things aviationâ ? in the area, Murray guided the Spanish crew to fly over several aircraft wrecks alongside Gray Ridge, including the wreckage of an RAF Boxcar which had crashed decades ago.

The C-295 team also provided a demonstration flight to several members of the Whitehorse media. Passengers on both flights had a chance to see the C-295's superb SAR flight characteristics, including: tight mountain turns to show its excellent mountain capabilities, a demo of its adept slow flight features, down to 80 knots ground speed and maximum performance short take-offs and landings (including a short-field landing of only 900 feet). After the flight, many of the passengers gave the C-295 high marks for its SAR strengths and lauded the idea of having military SAR assets permanently positioned in northern Canada.

Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #122 on: May 31, 2005, 13:35:43 »
OK... so what're these guys really doing...? me, I'm not sure what role organisations like CASARA should be playing in this..???

FYI...pulled this off the Whitehorse entry of www.c-295.ca... follow the tour links

The EADS CASA C-295 team learned about Yukon's rich aviation history and Yukon Search and Rescue (SAR) providers had a chance to see the C-295 maneuver over the lakes and mountains surrounding Whitehorse â “ as the C-295 Canadian tour continued with a two-day visit to Whitehorse.

The C-295 team hosted a reception Sunday night at the Yukon Transportation Museum, where they met pilots and spotters with the Civil Air Search and Rescue Association (CASARA) â “ Yukon, including President Gerald Bruce and the Yukon's most senior CASARA pilot Murray Biggin, also an avid aviation historian. Other guests included a group from Yukon regional airline Air North, local fire department officials and other emergency service providers, and the President of the Northern Air Transport Association, Hugh Kitchen.

The CASARA group was out in full force on Monday for a demonstration flight in the C-295 with Murray Biggin taking the right seat. The flight path took the SAR aircraft south of Whitehorse to Watson River Valley, along Gray Ridge over Bennett Lake to the Klondike town of Carcross, returning low level through several other remote mountain valleys.

With his knowledge of â Å“all-things aviationâ ? in the area, Murray guided the Spanish crew to fly over several aircraft wrecks alongside Gray Ridge, including the wreckage of an RAF Boxcar which had crashed decades ago.

The C-295 team also provided a demonstration flight to several members of the Whitehorse media. Passengers on both flights had a chance to see the C-295's superb SAR flight characteristics, including: tight mountain turns to show its excellent mountain capabilities, a demo of its adept slow flight features, down to 80 knots ground speed and maximum performance short take-offs and landings (including a short-field landing of only 900 feet). After the flight, many of the passengers gave the C-295 high marks for its SAR strengths and lauded the idea of having military SAR assets permanently positioned in northern Canada.

I do'nt think the is the aircraft we need but they do understand sales very well! remember the car salesman's motto "either bullshit talks or money walks!"
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Offline sandhurst91

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #123 on: June 03, 2005, 12:37:29 »
it seems the spin-doctors at DND aren't going to get forced into any kind of commitment one way or another:

http://www.c-295.ca/web/id/{C6095C13-D02F-4C5E-B116-8F0C477A7673}/content.asp

Captain Jim Hutcheson, air force public affairs officer in Ottawa, said the C-295 aircraft could "potentially be a contender for the program."

"Right now, we're in the final stages of completing the statement of operational requirement," he said.

Range, speed of the aircraft and capacity will all be considered factors in the decision, he said. The estimated budget for replacing the aircraft, including maintenance, will be $1.3 billion. Hutcheson could not comment on the feasibility of Yellowknife as a potential location for such an aircraft.




Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities
« Reply #124 on: June 05, 2005, 07:51:24 »
Do they really say to write to my MP...  :threat:   That is just wrong.. :skull: . Politicians should not be involved in Class A procurements... :salute:

You might find the article below, from today's Ottawa Citizen ( http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=a80c7e81-2083-47f5-9754-f7fa62b4005d ) interesting:

Quote
'Fast-tracked' search plane deal falls two years behind schedule

Liberals' lobbying forced change in tender specifications[/b]

a journalist
The Ottawa Citizen

June 5, 2005

A program to buy much-needed search and rescue planes, highlighted by Prime Minister Paul Martin as part of his commitment to revitalize the Canadian Forces and supposedly fast-tracked by government, has fallen two years behind schedule.

Part of the delay is because federal officials ordered the military to change the competition to allow a slower, cheaper aircraft to be considered for the $1.3-billion program.

Documents obtained by the Citizen show senior military officials told Defence Minister Bill Graham last August they were ready to proceed with the project, with a plan to award a contract for 15 aircraft in July 2005. Deliveries would start in late 2006, based on a timetable that required the government's approval, according to the briefing given to Mr. Graham and released to the Citizen under the Access to Information law.

An earlier schedule produced for Mr. Graham's predecessor, David Pratt, called for a contract to be awarded this month with aircraft deliveries starting in February 2006.

Air force officials now say they don't expect a contract to be awarded until the end of 2006 or early 2007. No date has been set for deliveries, but aerospace industry representatives expect those to happen in late 2008 or early 2009.

"The project has taken the time to further study the requirement and procurement strategy to ensure the program is aligned with the newly released Defence Policy Statement," noted military spokeswoman Maj. Lynne Chaloux in explaining the delay.

But government and industry officials say besides the defence policy review, the lobbying efforts of Spanish aerospace firm CASA to have its aircraft included in the competition contributed to derailing the schedule. Mr. Martin's government ordered the military back to the drawing board to come up with new aircraft requirements so CASA's C-295 transport plane could be considered. The search-and-rescue project has been a priority for the Liberal government since it was highlighted in October 2003, by then-Defence minister John McCallum.

In a rousing speech to troops in April 2004, Mr. Martin promised his government would fast-track the project, earning an ovation from appreciative military personnel. Government officials said the aircraft would be delivered 18 months after a deal was inked.

The project is to replace six Buffalo and 10 Hercules aircraft that are so old they are only available for rescue missions about 50 per cent of the time. The program had been seen in the defence industry as fairly straightforward, since the aircraft would not be outfitted with sophisticated weapon systems and planes were ready to be purchased off the shelf.

Air force officers had already identified the C-27J, built by the Italian firm Alenia, in addition to CASA's C-295 as the only aircraft to meet the requirements. Officers zeroed in on the C-27J as the best plane for search and rescue, because of its large size and speed, prompting complaints from CASA about favouritism toward it competitor.

Mr. Graham was told the minimum cruising speed needed for search and rescue, where response time is critical, would be 273 knots, about 500 kilometres an hour. CASA's aircraft has a speed of 260 knots, while the C-27J has a maximum speed of 325 knots.
The air force was also concerned about the C-295's cabin size and lack of sufficient cockpit visibility needed for rescue missions, according to military documents.

The concern was the C-295 would be too slow to reach northern areas from existing search-and-rescue bases at Greenwood, N.S., Trenton, Winnipeg, and Comox, B.C.

But aerospace and defence officials say CASA was able to override those concerns and appeal directly to Mr. Martin's desire for more of a military presence in the North. The company, a branch of the giant European consortium EADS, successfully pitched a scheme to base rescue planes in the Arctic, instead of having them fly up from existing installations.

The results of CASA's lobbying efforts materialized in the government's recent Defence Policy Statement, which noted the military would examine basing rescue planes in the Arctic. CASA argues that because its C-295 is cheaper to buy than the C-27J, the government could purchase more planes and significantly boost search and rescue capabilities.

"We believe within the existing budget of capital and in-service support, you could acquire the additional aircraft necessary to effectively revamp or enhance the (search-and-rescue) system for Canadians," said Bruce Johnston, president of EADS Canada. He said the C-295 still faces bias from some in the military.

Alenia officials declined comment on the decision to alter the aircraft requirements. But Alenia official Marcello Cianciaruso said when the government proceeds with its purchase, the company is ready to bid.

Some defence officials are not happy about altering the requirements to allow the C-295 to compete. There are concerns the cost of new search-and-rescue bases in the North will likely come out of the military's already-tight budget. There are also questions about why bases have to be built to accommodate a slower and smaller aircraft, when the C-27J would be able to reach northern destinations from current search-and-rescue bases.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2005

Partisan politics play an important role in defence procurement in Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark and so on ... not quite as important as in the USA where the concerns of several key senators and congressmen always, without fail, override military operational requirements, but pretty close.

The Liberals have been pretty successful in the North over the years but the NDP is gaining ground and Ethel Blondin Andrews barely held on to her seat (50 votes, I think) last time out.  Anything which can:

"¢   Keep her on side for every vote in this minority parliament; and

"¢   Buy a few votes for her - or any Liberal - in the next general election is a good idea inside the Liberal Party of Canada.  Military operational requirements and pesky little things like being able to rescue Canadians pale in comparison.

But, I want to re-emphasize: this (partisan, local political issues driving defence procurement) is not a uniquely Canadian problem and the Liberal Party of Canada is no less guilty than the Republican Party in the USA or the Labour Party in Britain.

It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
as to have neither strength nor courage to contend for anything; to have nothing left worth defending and to give the name of peace to desolation.
Algernon Sidney in Discourses Concerning Government, (1698)
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