Author Topic: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]  (Read 697230 times)

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Offline combat_medic

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2002, 16:35:00 »
Yes, there‘s a double standard, yes, I think we all disagree with it. The question was "Should a woman be allowed to do it if she‘s capable of doing the job". The question wasn‘t if they can pass the PT test, but if they can do the job. The CF doesn‘t need to go out and recruit women exclusively for the combat arms, but I don‘t think that fit, intelligent, capable women should be relegated to CSS simply because they‘re women, when plenty of unfit, unintelligent, incapable men are allowed in.

As anyone in the infantry can tell you, just because you pass the PT test doesn‘t mean you can do the job. Being able to do 19 pushups (male OR female) is NO determination of capability for combat arms. Yes, there is a double standard, I‘ve seen it personally on all my courses. No, there shouldn‘t be a double standard, especially where fitness is concerned... hopefully that will change. But along with the sexism, there is also ageism. So, (as mentioned previously) a 45 year old male will be doing an easier test than a 20 year old female, if if they‘re in the same MOC and rank. According to your argument, this must mean that he can‘t be allowed in combat arms either, right?

And as for "men can‘t walk around naked in barracks anymore," well if you were bringing a girlfriend or female relative to visit you in the shacks, would you want the first thing they see to be someone‘s hairy white a$$? Yeah, you need to wear clothes now... you also can‘t summarily execute people or beat new recruits senseless anymore. Do we want to bring that back too?

For hundreds of years people have said "In the good old days...." and said how much rougher they had it, how everything was better, the soldiers were better trained, better disciplined, and so on. So, we could go back to black powder rifles, wearing bright red into combat, have only white people of British descent who are 5‘8" or taller, and be able to flog soldiers for talking in ranks. Or... we could move forward, employ modern technology, weaponry and tactics, and employ people up to their abilities, regardless of gender, age, colour, or any other stereotype people care to mention.

As a freind of mine told me "Equality is when an black woman gets fired from a job because she‘s an idiot just as quickly as a white man would."
"If you're in a fair fight, your tactics suck." - Paracowboy

Offline radiohead

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2002, 08:29:00 »
"Which means it‘s absolutely unequal. I weight 200lbs, so I should carry a 200lbs dummy, while a 100lbs woman would carry half the weight I would? Am I misunderstanding or is there something I missed? "

Okay lets at this from a different view of point.  A 100 lbs. women, just doesn‘t have the strength to carry a 200lb plus gear guy, or if they can: it‘s not for any get distance; but on the same token can you as a 200lb man carry a 300 lbs. + gear person off the field for any great distances.  Its not a double standard if you take into account the size of the person.  Every unit is a team and you have to work together to get things done.  An all male unit will do things differntly than a mixed unit...so what.  I‘m sure if there really was a conflict and you were hurt and only person close by was that 100lb woman; she do everything in her power to save you.  If she couldn‘t carry you out then maybe she would stay by your side until someone else shows up.

You have to be open minded, and look for new ways of doing things.  Maybe the problem is and correct me if I‘m out to lunch, is that when most people join the forces their 18-22 and have never really worked with women. And now your 30, 35 and here are these women who want to join your team and you just don‘t know what to think.  I know combat isn‘t like any other job, and there‘s more to it than just strength and how much you can carry.

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2002, 13:04:00 »
Begin rant
1:  most men are raised to believe they must help women.  They open the door, they carry the heavy loads, they protect the woman‘s honor.  This is not exclusive to western white males, but to most cultures.  Should we have to change the cultures of the majority to satisfy special interest groups?
2:  men and women are ( for the most part ) sexually attracted to each other.  This attraction can cause havoc on small team dynamics.  #1 rifleman likes # 2 riflewoman but she is attracted to #3 rifleman.  On a long and diffuclt tour these tensions can lead to cohesion breakdown.
3:  family life directly affects profesional life.  Knowing your wife/husband is surrounded by and sleeping near and intimalely sharing space with a bunch of " studs " or "hot chicks" can lead to real problems.  A soldier going through a divorice is less focused on the job.

Having said all that, I believe there are women who are able ( physically and mentally ) to do the job and men who can‘t.  But do the benifits out wiegh the risks.  Its a simple matter of tactical assesment.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2002, 15:02:00 »
1/ Most people today are raised to believe (ideally) that they should be considerate of others.  Gender is becoming an irrelevant factor.

2/ Dealing with sexual tension is an issue.  So is being under shellfire for hours at a stretch.  Obviously people can learn self-control.  This is a leadership and self-discipline issue.

3/ What have the non-combat arms been able to achieve that the combat arms can not?  Do deployed mixed-gender service battalions have higher divorce rates than deployed all-male infantry battle groups?
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Offline combat_medic

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2002, 16:16:00 »
1. Considering that spousal abuse is more prevalent among the military than any other profession on earth, the idea of "protecting women" is bull$hit. Also, women are protecting you for the first 18 years of your life.

And I almost NEVER see a guy hold a door open for a chick. I saw a chick holding a large number of parcels in a mall heading towards a door. A group of guys were standing by the door, and not a single one of them would open it for her.

2. Are you saying that men and women are incapable of working together because they have an uncontrollable urge to fu¢k?!?! I‘m not sure if this applies to just you, but most men in civilian and military life are able to work with and be friends with women while still being able to keep their pants on.  
 
Quote
 There is also a lot of evidence that mixed-gender units in foreign militaries performed more effectively than single-gender ones - in North Vietnam and El Salvador for example. American commanders of experienced mixed-gender units noticed a similar pattern of positive dynamics - the women worked harder to gain approval and the men worked harder not to be outdone. This was quite evident in the Gulf. And what about the astronauts? You don‘t hear of any problems in space relative to unit cohesion. The men and women of NASA, military and civilian, have been performing as a "cohesive unit" on space flights for years.
and finally,

3. So, you‘re also not allowed to spend time with female friends because your wife will immediately divorce you? Come off it! If your spouse has that much of a problem that you‘re spending time away from them and outside of their supervision, then you probably shouldn‘t be in the military at all. If you can‘t trust your spouse/significant other, then maybe you shouldn‘t be involved with them. Either you‘re not trustworthy, or your spouse is untrusting. In either case, it‘s not a healthy relationship.
"If you're in a fair fight, your tactics suck." - Paracowboy

Offline muskrat89

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2002, 17:17:00 »
Medic - I agree with you in principle, but think those apply in an ideal world. The reality is - I have seen and experienced herbie‘s points #1 and #2, in my own life, and career in the military. Doesn‘t make it right, doesn‘t mean it always applies, but I‘ve seen it for myself...
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

Offline combat_medic

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2002, 17:39:00 »
I‘ve seen in too, both in civilian and military life. It shouldn‘t happen, and yes, it still does. But does this mean that we should gear our policies to fall in line with outdated viewpoints? There will always be discrimination, be it by age, gender, sexual preference, marital status (I‘ve seen this one too), ethnic origin, political standpoint, or even for no reason at all. We can either let it dominate and subjugate our decisions on national policy, or we can take the high road and allow black kids into public schools.

Oops, I mean let women into combat arms  ;)  (Boy, was that Freudian)
"If you're in a fair fight, your tactics suck." - Paracowboy

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2002, 21:53:00 »
"allow black kids into public schools"

And what happens when someone says "that isn‘t good enough. Black children (and we ALL know this is just an example) have been segrigated and picked on for SO long they they deserve more then to be just allowed in school. They deserve to goto school for free. On top of that if theres only room for one student and both black and white students want in we should automatically give it to the black student because they are a visible minority.

I believe everyone deserves the same chance, same oppertunities. But i don‘t think you should make rules and regulations to cater to specific groups.  Sorry if that went off topic.
Bottom line how i see it, girls deserve as much chance as guys.  Sometime though we should use common sense.  Mothers of america or whomever taking the boyscouts to court and forcing them to let girls in, that to me is complete stupidity hidden by the concept of equality.
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Pugil

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2002, 02:09:00 »
Maybe it is just my experience, but when I was doing pre-training for a roto, I have seen female reservist soldiers tried to use their sex-appeal to compensate their poor soldiering in order to go to Bosnia. It is kind of weird when you go to war and you see a couple in the same section.

* There is also a lot of evidence that mixed-gender units in foreign militaries performed more effectively than single-gender ones - in North Vietnam and El Salvador for example*

During the Vietnam war women were used in battle by the Vietcongs which were peasant soldiers with almost no training, they suffered heavy of calsualties until 1968 where they were replaced by the regular North Vietnamese Army which were better trained and better disciplined.

49thrca

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #59 on: December 06, 2002, 08:46:00 »
"I don‘t think a 45 or 50 year old soldier should be expected to keep up to an 18 or 20 year old private." as said by Ghost778

I don‘t want to wander off topic here but.....a 45 or 50 year old private (in the same trade)should be able to keep up with the 18 or 20 year old.  They are expected to, it is what they are paid to do.

If they can not keep up, maybe they are in the wrong trade and should be considering an occupational transfer.

APFSDS

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2002, 13:14:00 »
Women in the combat arms, is a dead horse that has been kicked many times... but what the heck, I‘ll kick it too. The first step to trying to make this already failing integration succeed is fairly obvious. The standards have to be even/equal. No sloping or "norming", just straight out equal. This will help quel some of the animosity that is present due to the double standards. I have served with females in the combat arms, in theatre, in training and in garrison. Every one of them have been sub standard (physically) to the "average" male soldier. This becomes apparent in a hurry in physically demanding roles, whether it be P.T. or doing track maintenance or ruck sack marches, or building bunkers etc. The resentment that occurs from the men having to help pull the females weight builds in a hurry. This is obviously not good for morale. There are a number of other ostabcles that need to be addressed after "equal" standards are enforced. Accomodations, hygene, etc. that need to be available while still making everyone feel like they are on the same team.
Ultimately I feel women have no place in the combat arms. I also do not consider myself sexist. I have women working for me now in the construction industry and think they are every bit as valuable as a male in their roles, however the combat arms is somewhere that they do not equally fill their roles.
When it comes to a countries front line of defense we can not have sliding standards.

Pugil

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2002, 13:34:00 »
* There is also a lot of evidence that mixed-gender units in foreign militaries performed more effectively than single-gender ones - in North Vietnam and El Salvador for example. American commanders of experienced mixed-gender units noticed a similar pattern of positive dynamics - the women worked harder to gain approval and the men worked harder not to be outdone. This was quite evident in the Gulf. *

Combat Medic, I want to know where did you get that. Yes women have served in combat roles in recent history, but most of them served in a guerilla type of organisation where numbers count. Most of these troops have poor training like the Vietcong (not to ne mistaken with the NVA).  During Gulf war I dont think women were used to fight maybe to drop bombs from airplane but it is like playing Nintendo, it is not really  a combat situation.

Offline muskrat89

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2002, 15:37:00 »
Again, I agree with the idealists in principle; outdated attitudes exist in the Military -  but just haven‘t seen it work, albeit with a very few exceptions. I agree about modern society, and attitudes, and dah de dah...BUT - I also believe that it is in our schools, youth organizations, homes, churches, etc., that we should be eliminating prejudices and shaping attitudes of young people - NOT in functioning combat units, that live and die on Unit morale and cohesion - I don‘t believe that makes me sexist
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Offline WB

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2002, 18:29:00 »
Equal Opportunity is not about lowering your standards for a minority. its about treating everyone as an equal.   :rolleyes:

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2002, 19:08:00 »
Finally someone strikes to the heart of the matter.  Gender integration in combat arms is unlikely to succeed until Canadians change the perceptions and expectations of boys and girls, and in particular participation in physically demanding activities.  We can apply and morally support band-aid solutions, but we have not addressed the root issue.
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That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error.

"It is a damned heavy blow; but whining don't help."

Despair is a sin.

silentseaforthsoldier

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2003, 19:04:00 »
OH god!...here‘s a Controversial topic...And remember every thing is an oppion(but try to be political correct; this may be hard for you ‘old school‘ War dogs)...I‘m not a sexiest or anything, I‘m just currious obout other people‘s ideas on the topic or opion.

I feel if women can pull their weight (ie. be able to drag my unconscience body out of a trench to a med station) then there is no reason why she can‘t be a soldier...

In the UK, women cannot service with an infantry unit as an infantry soldier...their opion over there (I‘ve been to the UK and trained there) is that if a Woman got greased on a patrol or Op, that the morale of the rest of the soldiers (males) would be lowered to the point that either the soldiers would not fight or there could be some rectless act......I somewhat believe this but from my experiences woman tend to have better shots, so I‘ll take a woman as my Fire team partner any day...

Another ‘fact‘, i have had girlfriends in cadets before and i‘ve take breaks for quickies, So the last thing i want is a distraction.......But i am willing to take that risk......(it could be a morale booster!)

Heres an idea....keep in mind that We are Canadians and the chance of this happening is next to impossible...But if on a patrol or Op and a woman from your patrol was taken prisoner by the enemy...What Guarantees her that she‘ll be treated fairly...?

Any one else have opions/experiences in this matter?

Dacier

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2003, 19:34:00 »
A woman being taken captive by a bunch of guys who are out in the field, haven‘t been with or seen a woman in a very long time being under the stress of combat, dealing with the power they feel with weapons in their hands,  and knowing their is a very small possiblity that if they do something to the woman there will be no reprecussions ever.

Guess what might happen.

Wilson601

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2003, 20:04:00 »
You‘ve ‘Trained‘ There? with cadets?
*ahem*
The israeli‘s, I believe, were the first to try out the woman in combat thing and it was the israeli‘s who had first discovered the concept that it lowers morale to see a women get killed. Mostly due to the fact that it was women in local militia units, women well known about their communitys who were ‘forced‘ to fight to save there homes etc. Men don‘t take it well...well.. some do   ;)  

Careful not to underestimate the Politcal Correctness of these "old school ‘War Dogs‘" as you call them, if you listen to you them; they are often very rational and you can learn a lot from them.

I for one don‘t mind the idea of women in the military but somewhat frown on the idea of seeing them in combats arms posistions and on boats, subs etc. I also found it difficult on my SQ/BIQ to compete with the female pers. on the course. Not because i‘m weak but because, they weren‘t too bad looking (or so the instructors thought)  :skull:

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2003, 21:16:00 »
You‘ve taken breaks for quickies?  I hope if you decide to join the military you don‘t take little breaks when you should be ‘on the job‘.

My opinion is biased because i‘ve seen a lot of trouble regarding females in the military. I know they deserve the chance to defend the country and not be segrigated or whatever because of their gender BUT i also know it causes a lot of problems.

Also i think  a very large part of the problem is how the army treats cases of false abuse.
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BestOfTheBest

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2003, 22:17:00 »
(having a Girlfriend in CADETS)
what the ****  I use to be in cadets like a year ago and i went to summer camp with them and the first thing they said no Frat with girls! and even in my old unit we weren‘t allowed dating other girls.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2003, 23:10:00 »
Seaforth Cadet 3 Pltn WO(?)

First, let me step out of my moderator chair, this may get  un PC.

This subject has been covered ad nauseum on this site. Check the old posts. Don‘t waste our time.

Don‘t come here talking like someone who‘s TRAINED like the military. You‘re not, your a cadet. Your training in no way compares to what the actual military, regular or reserve, entails.

Speaking of training, you best research what SHARP is all about and take it to heart. You seem to be way off the deep end for your supposed or apparent position.

Most of us come here for forms of SOCIAL intercourse. Not to be regaled by  tall tales of your supposed sexual intercourse.

This is a public forum. Open to anyone that wants to look in. Some people reading your posts won‘t distinguish between cadets and serving soldiers. The act(s) you purport to have accomplished (your "quickies") reflect badly on anyone in uniform. You discredit us, and you cap badge, the media love people and stories like you and yours.

How many parents who‘s children would like to join cadets, would let them after reading your post and surmising you may be in charge of their daughter or son.

I could go on, but you‘ve got me sufficiently p*ssed that I won‘t. A good NCO thinks about what he will say. He plans the action he takes and considers the repercussions on others. I hope you realize what a stupid statement you made, and hope you take responsibilty for your actions should your local Commander ever cruise in and read your post(s).

Do not reply to my post, I won‘t answer it till you grow up.
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Inclusive includes adverse opinions, or is not inclusive.

Suffield

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2003, 00:30:00 »
Cadet Warrant,

These are your bona fides and training, from your profile page, CL; CLI - D&C; NSCE; MLE? ROTFLMAO! The old days would have seen you out back of the building getting some peer counselling.  :D

Offline Doug

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2003, 00:32:00 »
Cadets can be so pompous and stupid some times.
You only told us exactly who you are, pretty much.
Are you trying to get kicked out of Cadets or just trying to look cool on the "War Diary"
Maybe you should change your name and try to blend in and lay low for a while.
I was in Cadets for 7 years and even a CI afterward, instead of joining CIL I joined the reserves.  Best decision of my life.  Cadets were fun while they lasted, but there‘s no real comparison to the military other than wearing uniforms and drill/map + compass/shooting.
The point is, share your legit exp. with the group but keep you extracurricular exploits to yourself.

For your information,

 Opinions on Cadets

 Females in The Infantry

 Canadian Forces failing in gender integration and employment equity: report

Do a little research next time,
Every man dies, not every man truely lives...

Offline combat_medic

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2003, 13:32:00 »
I love this irony:

"It‘s OK to have women in the military because that will mean I can have sex with them."

Obviously a well thought out mature opinion obtained through years of difficult military experience from someone who knows enough at ≤17 of both sex and the military to make an informed statement on the subject.

*end sarcasm*
"If you're in a fair fight, your tactics suck." - Paracowboy

Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2003, 15:17:00 »
Why was it cadets have a bad rep again?
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