Author Topic: War In Iraq Debate  (Read 24633 times)

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Offline cheeky_monkey

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Re: 100'000 and counting...
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2004, 18:35:51 »
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I am growing weary of the anti-American rhetoric, and as a Moderator, will start treating comments like this the same as I would treat a comment that was offensive to a religion, colour, gender, orientation, etc. We have rules of conduct here, and have rules regarding the substantiation of posts/opinions.


I would just like to call attention to the fact that Nox, or Jihad Warrior, has been banned for several of his posts, most recently today at noon, when he posted something derogatory about Americans.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: 100'000 and counting...
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2004, 19:54:38 »
Actually thats NOT the reason, Pea Brain Warrior was banned, one of his by-lines was horribly distasteful, and I echo Muskrat's sentiment,...I will not stand for anti-Americanism[or anti-anyone]  UNLESS you have facts to back it up.   

NOW HEAR THIS........I am starting to lose patience with some of the racist/sexist/etc...attitudes that are starting to surface, we have cleaned house before and will do it again, if you are in doubt about your post, then refer to the "Conduct Quidelines"
Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
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Offline IT_Dude_Joeschmo

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Re: 100'000 and counting...
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2004, 00:28:43 »
Fair enough warning indeed, I suppose my post was too broad, the fixed suggestion of:

Quote
I'd have to agree with Muskrat here. Try "Go move to the USA and buy a shotgun and chew on some grass and hang out with Bush's pals if you want it so bad" instead.

With added that I meant only that it was the "bible belt" and southern states that backed Bush up for the most part. I could have left out the insulting part and I will go so far as to understand if the moderators give me a "verbal" on my account if they feel the necessity.

In response to this:
Quote
The Queen is a figurehead representing the Canadian people. As such, I view my oath to the Queen as an oath to the Canadian people, implying an oath to serve the government chosen by the people to represent them.

That is exactly how I view the situation as well.   :salute:

Joe
PS> Apologies to those offended for my earlier post. The post
Quote
If the Americans had invaded, captured Jean Chretien, disbanded parliament, implemented a proper democracy, and helped properly re-arm our military....I don't think you'd see too many of us complaining.
really hit a "soft" spot for me. Again, please accept my apologies!
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Offline Karpovage

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Re: 100'000 and counting...
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2004, 00:44:50 »
Private Joe, you shot yourself in the foot again. I happen to live in the north and don't bible thump and I backed my President. And my liberal next door neighbor who voted for John Kerry owns 4 shotguns, is an avid hunter, lives in a rural area and happens to be an IT Director of a public school system. So, here's your opportunity to bash Americans and bash my President. yet again. Let's get it right this time. But you may want to move your other foot or at least check your ammo.
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Offline Bruce Monkhouse

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2004, 10:21:12 »
Quote,
I happen to live in the north and don't bible thump and I backed my President. And my liberal next door neighbor who voted for John Kerry owns 4 shotguns, is an avid hunter, lives in a rural area and happens to be an IT Director of a public school system.

Karpovage, ...come on whats up with that? How can we ever pin you guys down if you won't stay in sterotype. Sheesh
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Offline Karpovage

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2004, 10:31:34 »
Moving targets are harder to blast ;D

Bruce, I do appreciate you clamping down on some of the negativity and baseless allegations. These Forums are both informative and very entertaining and you guys do a great job of flushing the toilet when it overflows.
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Offline Canuck_25(Banned)

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2004, 17:15:08 »
 Well, looks like the topic moved from the war in Iraq to canadian sovereignty. Well, as a canadian, who feels that the queen is most important to canadian sovereignty and our history. This country is very left. I dont see much for nationalism in canada, and its a shame. Not trying to sound like a facist, but citizens take pride in their country through their military. Now, when you let ingore your military, national pride ussually drops. Today, as a young person, its hard to be proud of canada in the past 50 years. I find reading canadian history from 1900 to 1960 is when canada truly shined.

  I also believe anti americanism fuels canadian nationalism. Many people in my hometown resent americans, but they arent necessarily proud to be canadian either. What i mean by canadian nationalism is people actually singing "O canada" and "god save the queen" and knowing all the words, and saying it loudly, not under their breath. I do believe the liberal goverment is making attempts to establish a canadian culture and a canadian way of life.

 I also couldnt believe the Liberal goverment banned fox 24 hour news from canadian television.

Offline 48Highlander

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2004, 20:22:55 »
Sorry Joe, I've been gone for a few days, but since I'm the one who made the horrible horrible comment that so upset your delicate sensibilities, I figgured I'd clarify a few things for you now.

1)  It was a joke.  Go to www.ebay.ca and look up "sense of humour".

2)  I said that not too many of us would be complaining if the US had invaded, replaced Johnny, etc.  I didn't say that I wouldn't follow orders.  My personal beliefs are irrelevant.  If my chain of command orders me to pick up a rifle and defend our borders, that's what I'll do.

3)  If the US for some unfanthomable reason did decide to invade Canada, both American and Canadian soldiers would be equaly reluctant to take up arms against eachother.  I've worked with US soldiers, I know they're good people, and I consider quite a few of them to be my friends.  If they invaded, I'd do my best to follow orders, but I know I'd have one hell of a hard time killing people who have been our friends and neighbours for more than a century.  I'm sure that YOU on the other hand would have no problem blowing away those shotgun-toting wife-beater wearing trailer trash american rednecks, so I guess we'll stick you on the front lines.  Put OCAP and "homes not bombs" on your flanks.  If we throw enough of these anti-American types in the front, the US forces might turn around before ever reaching Ottawa.  Mission accomplished, grab some Canadian beer for the trip, let's go home.


And just to be on the safe side and avoid death-by-Muskrat, I'm going to emphasise here that the line abour rednecks was pure sarcasm and not intended to insult any group.  If any of the mods still have a problem with it, feel free to change it or let me know and I'll do it.

I also believe anti americanism fuels canadian nationalism. Many people in my hometown resent americans, but they arent necessarily proud to be canadian either. What i mean by canadian nationalism is people actually singing "O canada" and "god save the queen" and knowing all the words, and saying it loudly, not under their breath. I do believe the liberal goverment is making attempts to establish a canadian culture and a canadian way of life.

One thing I noticed quite recently is that those who ARE proud to be Canadian are also a lot more likely to be tolerant of or even friendly to our friends south of the border.  Those whom I think of as militant anti-americans tend to be quite proud of belonging to some group or another, but don't seem to have much pride in being Canadian.

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2004, 21:09:56 »
okay, to clear something up, all the guys saying "the us is about oil not humanitarian aid" and the ones saying "what about somalia and kosovo etc"

those were totally different administrations.I know ltos of americans, theyre alright. The clinton government did some good things.You would far more accurate in saying
the Bush administration is all about oil and money and not about humanitarian aid.Look whats happening in darfur.Any money there? nope. what about korea? nope, none there.
ukraine? no wait, no money.Just different cabinets man.Dont judge their entire country on the decesions and greed of a handful of monsters.Canada has its own monsters.Everybody does.

Offline 48Highlander

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2004, 21:30:21 »
okay, to clear something up, all the guys saying "the us is about oil not humanitarian aid" and the ones saying "what about somalia and kosovo etc"
those were totally different administrations.I know ltos of americans, theyre alright. The clinton government did some good things.You would far more accurate in saying
the Bush administration is all about oil and money and not about humanitarian aid.Look whats happening in darfur.Any money there? nope. what about korea? nope, none there.
ukraine? no wait, no money.Just different cabinets man.Dont judge their entire country on the decesions and greed of a handful of monsters.Canada has its own monsters.Everybody does.

So let me get this straight....

    Yugoslavia (a soverign nation) moves it's army into Kosovo (a "state" within the country of Yugoslavia) in order to stop the KLA (Albanian terrorists living in Kosovo) from killing Serbian civilians who reside in Kosovo.  The UN and various "officials" estimate that 100,000 Albanians are being "ethinicaly cleansed" by the Serbian army, so Clinton bombs the capital of Yugoslavia and arms the KLA.  After the war, only 3,272 civilian are found to have "dissapeared" in Kosovo, both Kosovar Albainans and Kosovar Serbs amongst them.

And Clintons war is a good thing?

    Meanwhile, Sadam kills off 300,000 of his own people, develops chemical and biological weapons, defies years of UN resolutions, and sponsors terrorism....and when Bush decides to take a swing at him, that's a bad thing.

Give me a break.

It's also rather interesting that the war on Iraq generated so much more opposition than the bombing of Serbia.  The only explanations I can see, given the figures I just quoted, are that either people are really REALLY confused, or the lefties only like protesting when a Republican is in power.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2004, 22:37:19 »
the Bush administration is all about oil and money and not about humanitarian aid.Look whats happening in darfur.Any money there? nope. what about Korea? nope, none there.
Ukraine? no wait, no money.

Colin Powell, US Secretary of State, upbraided the UN for not taking action to stop the Genocide in Dafar. The Multilateralists are currently debating what is the definition of Genocide so they can then hold another meeting...

The Bush Administration is attempting to hold multi-lateral talks between North Korea and the surrounding nations to resolve the various difficulties (including the threat of Nuclear blackmail), but the "Dear Leader" has so far rebuffed attempts to resolve these situations to the satisfaction of the neighboring nations. The Clinton approach of offering aid in return for cessation of nuclear weapons development foundered because only the Americans were "straight up", the DKRP took the food, money and oil and happily went on building Nukes

The United States is currently monitoring the situation in the Ukraine, and so far refuse to recognize the elections there as valid.

Since we don't live in a universe of "friction free" economies, the US is applying their blood and treasure against the areas which have demonstrated direct threats against them. Afghanistan and Iraq were perhaps the biggest reservoirs of Jihadis and biggest cash sponsors respectively, but Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and several lesser lights are probably in the gunsights right now. Should the situation change , the main effort of the United States will change as well.
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Offline muskrat89

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #61 on: November 28, 2004, 22:51:50 »
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And just to be on the safe side and avoid death-by-Muskrat

 ;D

48 - First of all, Mods aren't circling, just waiting to pounce...  Next, when someone is tip-toeing along the gray areas of decorum, the mods consider past posts, attitudes, contributions, etc., of the poster, before deciding what to do or say (if anything)

Calling someone (including me) a redneck, coming from you, isn't going to spur me into action.  ;)

Even when I don't agree, generally, I enjoy your posts....  carry on!
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Offline 48Highlander

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2004, 23:11:36 »
;D

48 - First of all, Mods aren't circling, just waiting to pounce...  Next, when someone is tip-toeing along the gray areas of decorum, the mods consider past posts, attitudes, contributions, etc., of the poster, before deciding what to do or say (if anything)

    Yeah, I know the majority of the members here are reasonable human beings, and that the mods are amongst the best of any forum I've ever taken part in.  Just thought I'd play it safe.  I've taken to occasionaly posting on leftie forums like www.indymedia.org just to see what the other side has to say, and their mods tend to go into temper tantrums at the mere hint of a racial term, regaurdless of context.  Ofcourse, they wouldn't consider anything derigatory of Americans to be a racial term, but use a phrase like "camel jockey" and you're labeled a war-mongering baby-bayonetting imperialist nazi.  And summarily banned from the site.  It never ceases to amuse me how a website/organization dedicated to free thinking and freedom of speech is ten times quicker to censor someone than a website run by us warmongers and faschists :P  Anyway, like I said I was pretty sure nobody would take offense to what I said, so thank you for proving me right :)

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2004, 15:33:42 »
>If the US for some unfanthomable reason did decide to invade Canada, both American and Canadian soldiers would be equaly reluctant to take up arms against eachother.

I was waiting for someone to state the obvious.  The "test that should never be taken" applies equally to both nations after so many years of shared culture and history.  It would take almost unimaginable incompetence and stubbornness on the part of politicians in both countries to cast us into something which with hindsight would probably look more foolish than the opening moves of WWI.  It would be ironic were the soldiers to make a peace which the politicians could not maintain.
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Offline Dogboy

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Re: 100'000 and counting...
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2004, 03:50:54 »
Quote
not that all the insergens are good guys but you've got to admirer they guts tho

So dogboy you admire people that cut the heads off of people and shoot women in cold blood. You must be a lot of fun at parties.   ::)

sorry bin away for a bit

with the logic in your statement I can assume that you support illegal detention touchier and human rights abuse along with the unnecessary killing of civilians?


did i say i supported the people doing the beheading?
NO don't lump me in like that

all i say is don't call something black and wight when its clearly not

their are people fighting the US believing their defending their home land (a valid point and brave SOBs)
and their are other who do the beheading thing (ssimpleterror)
their not all the same group


their was a interview on the CBC last week from a Australia feed that was with a few "insurgents" and i fond it rather enlightening
« Last Edit: December 10, 2004, 16:04:34 by Dogboy »
Iv got a learning disability. Iv had to deal with it for years you can deal with it for a min.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: War In Iraq Debate
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2004, 04:23:34 »
Busy boy, spreading your disjointed prose all over the forum. Stay in one spot, answer your problems, then move on. Either that, or go to bed and start fresh tomorrow. Maybe we'll make some sense of you then.
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What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Slim

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War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2004, 22:46:53 »
Though I'm not to sure this board continues to represent "What's wrong with University campuses today"



We're not into self-flagelation and self-victimization if thats what you mean...

Here's something else to consider.

Imagine, if you will, what it would be like living in a militant Muslim State and under the conditions you have described...

Do you really think that the average person is all that excited about their living conditions under that regime? don't you think that they would want a CHANGE of government, instead of propping up the extremist leaders there now?!

Unless, of course they're (the general population that is) are being LIED TO about who's fault it really is! If thats the case then another country would see the plight of those people and help them out, don't you think?

Oh wait, the States has done that with Iraq already and all the peace-loving Hoohaw's didn't carte for that

Hmmm, what to do, what to do?

Maybe all the peaceniks and University professors want an extremist state here in N.A...And you think that they're whining now...

Cheers

Slim :cdn: :salute:
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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2004, 12:54:19 »
Bograt,

Apology accepted.  When alcohol is involved I feel accountability is difficult to hold someone to...people say things. It happens.

48,

"Is Israel also responsible for Canadian ghettos?"  I don't know where this came from. At the expense of bandwith and people's time you should probably keep comments relevant to what people actually stated in their posts.


"Oh, I don't know, how about American forces fighting to implement a fair democratic regime instead of letting Iraq be run by extrimists"

We will see how fair and democratic the next regime in place is.  Not unlike many other military interventions the United States has been involved in, the next leader will be essentially hand picked to rule the country in accordance with their interests.

"What suggests life has improved?  Nothing.  What's the point of your question?  Did you expect life for them to improve the day the first American tank rolled over the border?  Or do you suppose it's a proccess which, like most things in life, will take a lot of hard work and time before it has a positive effect?"

We're approaching two years...let me know when you find something...


Offline Slim

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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2004, 13:03:14 »
Quote
We're approaching two years...let me know when you find something...

I think that you'll find that the average Iraqi citizen is VERY happy that the US has taken Sadam away from power. These people were living ina country ruled by fear. People dissapearing in the night, women raped, fathers and husbands tortured...No rights for anyone. Now the Country is trying to change. Women are allowed to go to school for the first time ever and I can't see, for the life of me, how and why you and all the other students out there think that this is a bad thing.

By the way I have friends in the country working for PMC's who are constantly approached and thanked for having the courage to what they're doing to try and keep the country away from extremism...That you won't see on the news because it doesn't make for a good story "the West doing good" and all.

Do you really want Iraq to return to the dark ages?

That makes no sense at all...CIVU there comes a time when you must turn and fight. If you're going for a soldier you need to learn that or you will not do very well at all!

Slim
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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2004, 14:45:50 »
"I think that you'll find that the average Iraqi citizen is VERY happy that the US has taken Sadam away from power"

I don't understand what this is based on.  Iraq remains a country filled with incredible violence and destruction, and from what I have read, while many Iraqi people are pleased with the removal of Saddam (an act in of itself I don't disagree with in principle) they are not pleased with the continued American occupation of the country.

"That you won't see on the news because it doesn't make for a good story "the West doing good" and all."

I'm pretty certain Fox News or CNN would gladly put this sort of story on air.  It would certainly project a better image than the present death toll statistics and colour coded terror monitor that fills the gaps between Crossfire and Wolf Blitzer on CNN and the latest marry a transexual midget reality show on Fox...

"Do you really want Iraq to return to the dark ages?"

I'm not sure how this would happen?

"there comes a time when you must turn and fight. If you're going for a soldier you need to learn that or you will not do very well at all!"

I agree with you completely; except that the decision made in March 2003 was not the right time or for the right reasons...



Offline Slim

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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2004, 14:50:18 »
 agree with you completely; except that the decision made in March 2003 was not the right time or for the right reasons...

What makes you think, as an officer cadet in a civilian university abd being taught by leftist professors, that you know ANYTHING about the right time to turn and fight?!
"The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2004, 15:52:47 »
"What makes you think, as an officer cadet in a civilian university abd being taught by leftist professors, that you know ANYTHING about the right time to turn and fight?!"

What makes you think as a retired Armoured Cpl of 35 years of age and the opposite political viewpoint of mine that you know ANYTHING about the basis for American foreign policy decisions?!

This line of reasoning is irrelevant as anyone could question anyone's knowledge on the nature of one situation or another.  With the exception of an area where someone is a particular expert, of which neither of us are on the items being debated here, nobody on this forum has anything other than their own background and knowledge gleemed from that to ascertain an opinion...

Also, what makes you think I'm being taught by leftist professors? What makes you capable of making a judgment on my knowledge of anything, including "the right time to turn and fight", based on information from a bio on an internet forum?  I could easily have more life experience than you in any number of areas, just as you could over me.  But that doesn't make either of our opinions meaningless... 

I think you need to take this discussion, as that's what it is, and recognize that every post is not a personal attack on your credibility as a human being...

Offline InterestedParty

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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2004, 15:53:38 »
A lot of this discussion reminds me of the old Cold War debates during the 1980s when the moral equivalency crowd was busy making every excuse for the Soviet Empire they could muster. And blaming America first. Those of us "of a certain vintage" will remember how outraged leftists took to the streets when NATO responded to the stationing of SS20 missiles in the Eastern Bloc with the Pershing.   Interestingly, most of the so-called intellectual leaders who led that fight have reconstituted themselves as critics against the war on the terror - including that darling of the academy Noam Chomsky and his sidekick Edward S. Herman.   Chomsky disgraced himself by denying for years that Pol Pot had precipitated a class-based genocide in Cambodia, but I digress. CivU has decided to line up with the propagandists who are doing their best to undermine the US war in Iraq and dismiss the war on terror as a creation of US imperialism. He has highlighted the work of an individual (William Blum) who believes that Reagan, Clinton and Swartzkopf are war criminals who should be treated the same way as Japanese war criminals who conducted biological warfare experiments on alllied prisoners in WW2; CivU has said he disagrees with Mr. Blum's analysis in this instance, but has signally failed to denounce Mr. Blum himself as a irresponsible buffoon and psedo-intellectual. In the end it doesn't matter that much.   The war of terror is the great moral question of our time - some will choose sides that are reprehensible, most will do the right thing and understand that Islamo-fascism is one of the scourges of our time.   As Castro said, "history will absolve me" - or not.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2004, 15:56:47 by mdh »

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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2004, 15:55:56 »
most will do the right thing and understand that Islamo-fascism is one of the scourges of our time. 

Thank you!

CivU

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Re: War in Iraq: Was it right to invade? Would it be right to leave now?
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2004, 16:55:47 »
What is Islamo-fascism?  You seem to have connected one word that has become negative for a lot of people, Islam, and attached to it a word with justified negative connotations, fascism.  I have yet to hear this term used outside of your post.

"Chomsky disgraced himself by denying for years that Pol Pot had precipitated a class-based genocide in Cambodia"

Did Bush disgrace himself by failing to recognize that there were in fact no weapons of mass destruction?

"has signally failed to denounce Mr. Blum himself as a irresponsible buffoon and psedo-intellectual"

Mr Blum has a degree in economics and worked for the US State Department before resigning over his contention with American involvement in Vietnam.  He has been a freelance journalist since this time and continues to publish books, papers and scholarly articles.  I'm not sure your level of education, so I am not going to assume anything, but I think it is fitting to say Mr. Blum is undoubtedly an intellectual and most certainly not a buffon, whether you disagree with what he has to say or not.  Because someone's views are not consistent with yours does not mean their intellectual capacity is inferior...