Author Topic: War Criminal Demonstration  (Read 32345 times)

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Offline Aden_Gatling

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War Criminal Demonstration
« on: November 16, 2004, 19:16:25 »
In our media's seemingly unending quest to piss-off the US in every way possible?  I hope they don't read our papers or watch the CBC ...

Quote
Nov. 16, 2004. 01:00 AM
Should Canada indict Bush?

THOMAS WALKOM

When U.S. President George W. Bush arrives in Ottawa â ” probably later this year â ” should he be welcomed? Or should he be charged with war crimes?

It's an interesting question. On the face of it, Bush seems a perfect candidate for prosecution under Canada's Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes Act.

This act was passed in 2000 to bring Canada's ineffectual laws in line with the rules of the new International Criminal Court. While never tested, it lays out sweeping categories under which a foreign leader like Bush could face arrest.

In particular, it holds that anyone who commits a war crime, even outside Canada, may be prosecuted by our courts. What is a war crime? According to the statute, it is any conduct defined as such by "customary international law" or by conventions that Canada has adopted.

War crimes also specifically include any breach of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, such as torture, degradation, wilfully depriving prisoners of war of their rights "to a fair and regular trial," launching attacks "in the knowledge that such attacks will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians" and deportation of persons from an area under occupation.

Outside of one well-publicized (and quickly squelched) attempt in Belgium, no one has tried to formally indict Bush. But both Oxfam International and the U.S. group Human Rights Watch have warned that some of the actions undertaken by the U.S. and its allies, particularly in Iraq, may fall under the war crime rubric.

The case for the prosecution looks quite promising. First, there is the fact of the Iraq war itself. After 1945, Allied tribunals in Nuremberg and Tokyo â ” in an astonishing precedent â ” ruled that states no longer had the unfettered right to invade other countries and that leaders who started such conflicts could be tried for waging illegal war.

Concurrently, the new United Nations outlawed all aggressive wars except those authorized by its Security Council.

Today, a strong case could be made that Bush violated the Nuremberg principles by invading Iraq. Indeed, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has already labelled that war illegal in terms of the U.N. Charter.

Second, there is the manner in which the U.S. conducted this war.

The mistreatment of prisoners at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison is a clear contravention of the Geneva Accord. The U.S. is also deporting selected prisoners to camps outside of Iraq (another contravention). U.S. press reports also talk of shadowy prisons in Jordan run by the CIA, where suspects are routinely tortured. And the estimated civilian death toll of 100,000 may well contravene the Geneva Accords prohibition against the use of excessive force.

Canada's war crimes law specifically permits prosecution not only of those who carry out such crimes but of the military and political superiors who allow them to happen.

What has emerged since Abu Ghraib shows that officials at the highest levels of the Bush administration permitted and even encouraged the use of torture.

Given that Bush, as he likes to remind everyone, is the U.S. military's commander-in-chief, it is hard to argue he bears no responsibility.

Then there is Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. says detainees there do not fall under the Geneva accords. That's an old argument.

In 1946, Japanese defendants explained their mistreatment of prisoners of war by noting that their country had never signed any of the Geneva Conventions. The Japanese were convicted anyway.

Oddly enough, Canada may be one of the few places where someone like Bush could be brought to justice. Impeachment in the U.S. is most unlikely. And, at Bush's insistence, the new international criminal court has no jurisdiction over any American.

But a Canadian war crimes charge, too, would face many hurdles. Bush was furious last year when Belgians launched a war crimes suit in their country against him â ” so furious that Belgium not only backed down under U.S. threats but changed its law to prevent further recurrences.

As well, according to a foreign affairs spokesperson, visiting heads of state are immune from prosecution when in Canada on official business. If Ottawa wanted to act, it would have to wait until Bush was out of office â ” or hope to catch him when he comes up here to fish.

And, of course, Canada's government would have to want to act. War crimes prosecutions are political decisions that must be authorized by the federal attorney-general.

Still, Prime Minister Paul Martin has staked out his strong opposition to war crimes. This was his focus in a September address to the U.N. General Assembly.

There, Martin was talking specifically about war crimes committed by militiamen in far-off Sudan. But as my friends on the Star's editorial board noted in one of their strong defences of concerted international action against war crimes, the rule must be, "One law for all."

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1100517502971&call_pageid=970599109774
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Is there anything they've left out?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 19:30:23 »
Maybe we should charge this guy for having his head up his ***.

I recognize that this article is a attempt at sarcasm to reveal hypocrisy, but it really reflects his failure to understand reality.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Is there anything they've left out?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 19:54:51 »
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Is there anything they've left out?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2004, 00:15:17 »
I'd like to volunteer this f'n prick for a journalistic sightseeing tour of Sunni Iraq, let him enjoy the taste of his own testicles before offering him the opportunity to write an apology, retraction and follow-up on who the real bad guys are.



Matthew.  >:(
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Is there anything they've left out?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2004, 16:01:21 »
The Nuremburg trials were held to deal with a regime which overran most of Europe, ran genocidal death camps, engaged in ethnic cleansing, used civilians and PoW as slave labour...

When the US achieves that scope of institutionalized depravity, ring the bell and we'll hold trials.  Until then, feel free to smack yourself repeatedly in the face with a hammer until some common sense returns.
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Offline Gunnar

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Re: Is there anything they've left out?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2004, 16:12:25 »
There's a lot of people who compare the US and or US leaders to Nazi Germany or Hitler these days.  This shows you how far out of touch people are with the horrors of that particular war.  I would suggest that the next time somebody makes one of these stupid comments in the press that they be forced to spend some time touring the camps...or if too lazy to do that, then at least go to www.remember.org

As Brad said, when the US reaches that level of institutionalized depravity, feel free to ring the bell.  Until then, get your proctologist on the horn and see if he can find your head.
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Offline pbi

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Re: Is there anything they've left out?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2004, 21:37:07 »
The author is right!

His insightful piece is a clarion call to humanity, a banner on the barricades in the front-line struggle against the hegemonic militarist Bush and his warmongering cronies as they wage imperialist aggression against our fellow world citizens in Fallujah and other martyred places in the Middle East! The visit of the rabid hegemon oppressor to the cringingingly servile "Government" in Ottawa will be the rallying signal to all progressive Canadians: students, teachers, workers, cadres, the homeless, the unwaged, the career-free and all others in the advance guard of social and world consciousness! Forward! Smash the Militarist Power Structure! Empower self-actualization of internalized realities! Think Globally! Act Locally Smash the Globalizing Exploiters!

(Pant Pant Pant). Ho ho. That was fun, wasn't it? >:D

Cheers.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2004, 21:41:13 by pbi »
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Offline Get Nautical

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War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2004, 15:39:14 »
Just Advertising and supporting

Demonstration against George Bush

U.S. President George W. Bush will be in Canada, November 30, 2004
Demonstrations against Bush will be held across the country, on the grounds that he is a war criminal and is responsible for 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq and that he and his administration are in continuing violation of Geneva Convention accords by holding prisoners in torture like conditions at Guantanamo bay.

In Salmon Arm There will be a demonstration on Tuesday Nov. 30 from 12:15 to 12:45 at Alexander St. and TCH

If you belive that Bush is a war criminal
Find out if its happening in your town and show up, or organize one to protest it

Offline Scotty

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2004, 15:57:06 »
How come you didn't protest for the hundreds of thousands of people Saddam killed?

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2004, 16:08:33 »
How come you didn't protest for the hundreds of thousands of people Saddam killed?
and tortured?

Offline Xfire

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2004, 16:16:03 »
too many damn hippies in this country...
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Offline Torlyn

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2004, 16:34:18 »
Here's an idea...  If you really want to go protest, hop on a flight to Iraq.  Tie yourself to a building holding insurgents inside in Fallujah, wear your little white flag, and protest to your heart's content.  Have you ever actually spoken to an Iraqi citizen who fled that country, to get away from Saddham?  Try it.  Ask what their living conditions were like.  THEN decide if you still think Bush is the bigger war criminal...

T

Fallujah delenda est

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2004, 16:55:46 »
Quote
How come you didn't protest for the hundreds of thousands of people Saddam killed?

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't...who are you to say?

Quote
Too many damn hippies in this country...

That's more of a personal attack, than anything...
I am to hippie as you are to power-starved warmonger.

Quote
Here's an idea...   If you really want to go protest, hop on a flight to Iraq.   Tie yourself to a building holding insurgents inside in Fallujah, wear your little white flag, and protest to your heart's content.   Have you ever actually spoken to an Iraqi citizen who fled that country, to get away from Saddham?   Try it.   Ask what their living conditions were like.   THEN decide if you still think Bush is the bigger war criminal...

Have you spoken to the families of the innocent civilians who have died as a result of the war? Try it. Ask what their living conditions are like under the occupation of American forces.

It is difficult to ever fully comprehend the insurmountable violence and oppression inflicted upon the Iraqi poulace under Saddam Hussein. In making that statement, however, are you trying to justify U.S. actions through the vicious actions of another state?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 17:06:18 by MissMolsonIndy »

Offline 48Highlander

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2004, 17:05:38 »
Have you spoken to the families of the innocent civilians who have died as a result of the war? Try it. Ask what their living conditions are like under the occupation of American forces.
Are you trying to justify U.S. actions through the vicious actions of another state?

I like your logic.  While we're at it, let's go talk to the people of Europe and ask them what their living conditions were like while that evil alliance of allys was fighting the good and benevolent Nazi's.  Clearly we should have stayed out of WW2, look how much damage we caused by fighting!

Offline Torlyn

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2004, 17:11:45 »

Are you trying to justify U.S. actions through the vicious actions of another?


No ma'am.  What I'm trying to point out is that too many people are more than willing to hop on the protest wagon without seeing both sides.  He's obviously seen the side that the media have painted, but hasn't looked much deeper.  It was a sarcastic response.  ;)

Now, if we go under the assumption that the American conflict falls under the geneva convention (Part i, Article i, para 2) then the actions that bush has taken in regards to the treatment of Iraqi citizens both in Iraq and detained in Guantanimo Bay are not war crimes.  Look at the firebombing of Dresdin,(sp?) or Hiroshima & Nagasaki.  A hell of a lot more civilians were killed then, but no one from the allied side faced war crime tribunals.

Back to the prisoners in Cuba, well, POW's can be held until the end of hostilities, right?  As of yet, hostilities sure haven't ended.  As for "torture-like" conditions, I'll believe it when I see it.  The Americans are way to aware of the image that they must present, and I doubt would treat those prisoners any worse than the G.C. allowed.  I believe this because they know the crap storm that would occur were they caught, and, as we say in Abu Grabe, you always get caught.  Thus, their detention isn't illegal.  If there is information out there contrary to this, I would be more than willing to consider it.

As for Abu Grabe (sp?) Bush cannot be liable unless he specifically ordered said treatment, right?  So why would anyone protest to get GB indicted?  I can see (and will the defend the rights of) anyone to protest the present action in Iraq, but I cannot stand and watch people attack someone when they know nothing about it.  Hence the tone of my response to SP.

As for speaking to both sides, yes, I have.  It's tough to find any Iraqis who fled the Saddham regime who haven't lost family members in either Gulf War I or Gulf War II.  As for living conditions, the impression I got that putting up with a few hardships (no, I'm not belittling the conditions..  Having to desalinate your own water, no electricity, heat, etc isn't easy, nor do I try to imply that it is) was worth not living under Saddham.  I'll ask directly, and get back to you.

Hope that clears things up some.

T

Fallujah delenda est
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 17:15:51 by Torlyn »

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2004, 17:15:43 »
I like your logic.   While we're at it, let's go talk to the people of Europe and ask them what their living conditions were like while that evil alliance of allys was fighting the good and benevolent Nazi's.   Clearly we should have stayed out of WW2, look how much damage we caused by fighting!

My sarcasm detector is off the charts.

If you reread my response, you'll realize that I never made comment on whether or not American troops should have stayed out of the war, or not.

Unless I read it incorrectly, Torlyn's statement is attempting to justify the entire concept of the war, including the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, on the basis that the Iraqi people were oppressed and were subjected to vicious ruling prior to the outbreak of war. The oppression/violence has not been removed, it has merely taken on a different form. Whether that is a positive, negative, or overlapping thing...you decide.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2004, 17:18:46 »
MissMolsonIndy [ ;)] et al..
I, like so many others, have enjoyed the perspective and debates that you bring to this web site, however I question the appropriateness of using this web site as a forum to solicit support and organize demonstrations such as those which are the subject of this thread. I suppose there are other web sites in which you may do so, and I sincerely believe that the sort of activity discussed by all parties in this thread simply cheapens and tarnishes the reputation of a darn good site, not to mention the esteem and regard held for some of the posters herein. [MMI, that means you.]

That especially goes for you Shawn Papke. Keep it up, and in a metaphoric sense you will be kicking your lunch pail down the road.   :)
 

Living the lean life.

Offline Torlyn

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2004, 17:20:01 »
Unless I read it incorrectly, Torlyn's statement is attempting to justify the entire concept of the war, including the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, on the basis that they were oppressed and were subjected to vicious ruling prior to the outbreak of war.

Hmm...  I think I cleared that up in my last post...  However, weren't you trying to carry a juxtaposition by stating "Have you spoken to the families of the innocent civilians who have died as a result of the war? Try it. Ask what their living conditions are like under the occupation of American forces."  The impression I get from that is you denounce the war using the same flawed logic that you say I used in "attempting to justify the entire concept of the war"...

On a side note, I would have *LOVED* to be in a polysci class with you...  I can see the heated discussions already.  :)

Respectfully,

T

Fallujah delenda est

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2004, 17:29:44 »
MissMolsonIndy [ ;)] et al..
I, like so many others, have enjoyed the perspective and debates that you bring to this web site, however I question the appropriateness of using this web site as a forum to solicit support and organize demonstrations such as those which are the subject of this thread. I suppose there are other web sites in which you may do so, and I sincerely believe that the sort of activity discussed by all parties in this thread simply cheapens and tarnishes the reputation of a darn good site, not to mention the esteem and regard held for some of the posters herein. [MMI, that means you.]

That especially goes for you Shawn Papke. Keep it up, and in a metaphoric sense you will be kicking your lunch pail down the road.   :)
 

In which of my posts have I attempted to solicit support, and furthermore, organize demonstrations? Where have I ever made the implication that I intend to join the Anti-War demonstrations? I was simply challenging the logic on this forum. If that makes me a "leftist hippie," then label me as such.

As far as the original post goes, Shawn was showing support, and informing others (who may not have known already) about a particular demonstration that clearly wasn't well-taken to in this arena. I don't think that there is anything in his original post that reveals his "imposition" of values and ideals on others...

Offline 48Highlander

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2004, 17:34:22 »
Unless I read it incorrectly, Torlyn's statement is attempting to justify the entire concept of the war, including the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, on the basis that the Iraqi people were oppressed and were subjected to vicious ruling prior to the outbreak of war. The oppression/violence has not been removed, it has merely taken on a different form.  Whether that is a positive, negative, or overlapping thing...you decide.

That's the point.  Do you seriously beleive that during WW2, the oppresion and violence which, for example, the french people were suffering under the Nazis was removed the day that allied soldiers stepped foot in the country?  Or do you suppose it might have taken a few years for things to get better?  The fact that people are still dying is obviously a negative thing, but it's unavoidable.

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2004, 17:38:21 »
Hmm...   I think I cleared that up in my last post...   However, weren't you trying to carry a juxtaposition by stating "Have you spoken to the families of the innocent civilians who have died as a result of the war? Try it. Ask what their living conditions are like under the occupation of American forces."   The impression I get from that is you denounce the war using the same flawed logic that you say I used in "attempting to justify the entire concept of the war"...

On a side note, I would have *LOVED* to be in a polysci class with you...   I can see the heated discussions already.   :)

What I presented to you was by no means logic, in fact, it was to show you that your statement could have easily been flipped around, and it still would have constituted unreasonable grounds upon which to base an argument. Civilian casualties are an unfortunate product of war, and have been throughout history.

What I'm getting at is this: you can't use the suffering of a population to justify further oppression.

Torlyn: I keep my debates relatively civil, haha, but if you wanna giv'er one night over a few drinks, I'm game.

Offline Torlyn

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2004, 17:44:47 »
What I'm getting at is this: you can't use the suffering of a population to justify further oppression.

Very true, you can't justify futher oppression through the suffering of a population...  I think where this gets touchy is the varying opinions people have on whether or not the current American occupation of Iraq and the allied occupation of Afghanistan constitutes oppression.  However, that's more of an opinion thing, and doesn't have much to do with this thread.  ;)

whiskey 601 Did bring up an interesting point...  We've hijacked this thread quite nicely.  :)  However, I do think we got a few relevant things discussed...   ;D

T

Offline CheersShag

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2004, 17:52:53 »
There is a thread already opened for discussing the war in Iraq I believe,
If not, feel free to start another just make sure there isn't one already open as far as this thread is concerned...

They're doing the same thing in Halifax though it seems they've decided Bush is guilty already, so I don't see the point behind the trial.
Plans are to cuff "Him" and take "him to the US consulate at Purdy's Wharf.
Personally (and this is a personal opinon and you're all welcome to it) modern protestings attempts to rekindle the furour and justness of older protests and revolutions lacks the genuine feeling behind the movements.
I'm for change, for progression, for revolutions but they are useless vehicles that do nothing more than stop traffic if the people involved do not give themselves to their cause and believe in it truly and deeply.
For most I have met (and it is a significant number believe me) their version of change, progression and revolution involves getting blazed and screaming at any old white man who comes out of a government building.

I have encountered too many Nike wearing, Gap Rocking protestors at Dalhousie (Infanteer has a good anecdote about one too I believe) who have tried to convince me that exploitation of oil producing countries and the war in Iraq is wrong.
For every few who truly give their hearts and minds to it (which I respect) there are hundreds more who jump on the bandwagon faster than Tampa Bay fans did last year....

As for the war criminal trial...The organisers have convicted Bush already as I see it, which kind of ruins the ending for me, so I think I'll pass.

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2004, 17:54:46 »
Missmolsonindy.......bad netiquette to change the wording after someone responds to the question, shame,shame. :-[
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Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2004, 18:08:19 »
MMI, that's a crock and you know it. As I see things, a post advocating protests against a visiting foreign leader was broadcast to the public on this site. Have you ever seen that on this site before?   

Right away, the topic is assailed from the other side of the spectrum, and without characterizing the substance of all of the posts, the thread goes down hill right from the start. Instead of ignoring the thread, you weigh in and literally throw gas on the fire by posting into the thread. I am going to suggest to you that you had other options. One of those options might have been to open a new thread on the efficacy of such political demonstrations. But, by failing or omitting to do so, you either (1) recklessly cast your lot into the thread, and thereby created the appearance of supporting an objectionable post, or (2) were wilfully blind of the resulting appearance of your post ,   even if you personally don't advocate the sort of things which SP did.   It was not until my last post that the appearance was put to rest, so thank you. That does not detract from the quality of the discourse that has subsequently arisen between you and Torlyn, which by the way is excellent.   

And, I know that you are aware of the alternative options, because I've seen you select the ground upon which you choose to stand, and this particular thread is beyond being out of character for you.

Cheers.
Living the lean life.