Author Topic: War Criminal Demonstration  (Read 32351 times)

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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2004, 12:42:29 »
Brad, that's an awesome post!

Shawn: "Me, too!"
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline Slim

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2004, 20:02:15 »
Brad Good post!

I must say that these clowns are no more together and organized than when I was operating against them several years ago. I really tried (at the time) to approach the whole thing with an open mind to see if, just maybe, there was a point to all this.

Conclusion: Nope, no point at all. Trying to understand them is pretty much a complete waste of time.

There was a core group of agitators who travel around the continent stirring trouble and whipping (or trying to) everyone into a frenzy. Everyone else who attend do so out of a set of vague fears that they should do SOMETHING but are not quite sure what.

Allot of their funding is actually done by groups who are very anarchistic by nature, and who's goals include the abolishment of our society, organized religion, any military and policing apparatus...The list goes on. Who's funding them is anyone's guess...!

The whole thing kind of sickens me actually. These "professional" protesters take the names of all the good people and drag them right through the mud, they delude people into believing untruths that seem to suite the pros at the time and they threaten violence to anyone who does not agree.

It doesn't always work out for them either as at one protest I worked (undercover) I observed one "professional" protester knock a bunch of mailboxes and newspaper boxes down in the financial district in Toronto. His actions were promptly countered by another group of "local" protesters who came right along behind and set them all back up again, ignoring the threats of violence from the first one!

Sometimes I think half the reason that I do what I do for a living is to make sure (or at least help make sure) that everyone is allowed to live peace as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

For those of you who think that Iraq doesn't want the US there to get rid of these AQ clowns, go walk down the main street in Bagdad and see what happens. Believe me when I say that they are plenty glad to have gotten rid of someone who tortures, rapes and robs them.

Makes you wonder what kind of people think that Saddam should be put BACK in power?!

My 2 cents :salute:

Slim
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Edmond Burke

Offline Get Nautical

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2004, 16:09:28 »
Good Post, Slim

I suppose you could be right on that one, but i havent heard the iraqi civilian side of the story, shouldnt they be showing that perspective a bit more in the news,

- Shawn

Offline Thucydides

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2004, 23:22:45 »
Consider that Dan Rather's Producer had been working on the "Bush Air National Guard" story for five years, but the best they could do was some documents of dubious authenticity (which even non expert eyes in the "Blogosphere" recognized as Microsoft Word format [wow, that Bill Gates can even travel in time!]).

Consider also that John Kerry's released military documents have certain allusions to the Senator being dishonourably discharged from the Navy, and there are hundreds of documents that were never released by Kerry. How many news organizations were (or are) working on that story?

The simple fact of the matter is that Iraqi citizens building prosperous lives is exactly contrary to the "message" that the war was wrong, etc. etc. It would take a very bold member of the "Mainstream Media" to broadcast the story, and the resulting sh**storm would probably end that producers and reporter's career.

For a closer to home example, for many years during the Mike Harris government here in Ontario, the Walkerton water tragedy (where eight people died from drinking contaminated water from the municipal system) was always trotted out as a direct consequence of his policies. At the inquiry, it was discovered the illegal well was drilled in 1975, and various missives from the Ministry of the Environment were ignored during the time that Bill Davis, David Peterson and Bob Rea were premier. Now that the perpetrators (the Kobel brothers, who managed the municipal supply all those years) have been found guilty and are up for sentencing, where are all the apologies to Mr Harris?

I'm afraid we will have to did up the information ourselves. Fortunately, the Internet makes this easier than at any time in history, all you need is a properly sceptical attitude (BS filter) and the willingness to do the work yourself.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Cloud Cover

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2004, 00:12:25 »
and the willingness to do the work yourself.

What? The government doesn't do the work? The revolution will take care of that ....   
Living the lean life.

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2004, 14:08:03 »
My main problem with the "leftist" position is they still seem to focus only on the undeniable collateral effects of war, without looking at the political objectives the war is meant to achieve. This allows people to make silly statements like "Bush is a war criminal" with a straight face, since for the most part, they really have no idea what they are talking about. If 100,000 people have been killed in Iraq due to the actions of the coalition (BTW, this was a speculation, not an informed casualty count, see the "100,000 and counting" thread), then a very high price has been paid, but the political ends; removing an aggressive and destabilizing regime, breaking support links to various terrorist organizations, preventing the resumption of WMD research and development, and saving the citizens of the country from further oppression; would seem to make taking action worthwhile. Since the real casualty count is much lower, then the price is acceptable for what has been achieved, and since the conventional laws of war have been followed quite scrupulously by the coallition, then there is no case for stating the President is a "war criminal".

The other problem with most "leftists" is even when confronted by factual evidence, they will simply dismiss you with some insult and carry on as if you had never spoken. The only thing for "ignorent redneck cracker bible-thumping baby-killers" to do is continue to press on, find the facts and publish them wherever you can. It can't hurt, and you might help someone somewhere.

Do you mind if I steal that? I will leave you anonymous.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2004, 15:24:29 »
Steal? A person of gentle breeding NEVER steals!. They may acquire, however.

Before you acquire this quote, may I ask in what context it will be used?
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Dogboy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2004, 03:13:39 »
OK ill wade in hear


1 the war on Iraqi was for several resons no-mater who  you talk to (hey your going to kill a few 1000 people you need a few resons)


no-mater who Saddam was or what he did. their are worse people in the world in power right now so why do we not invade them?

why was Saddam our friend when he was killing those people on his own? better yet why did we give him weapons to do it ?


the UN says the war was wrong and condemned it
the UN was set up to help prevent just this from happening (one contry invading another without provocation )


Even if BIG IF  Bush was guilty of war crimes (i don't give him that much cred.)
the USA dose not recognise the international human rights courts and will not follow its laws or rulings

Iv got a learning disability. Iv had to deal with it for years you can deal with it for a min.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2004, 03:17:33 »
As much as I tried to delve into your poorly written post, I still could not divine a point....
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Dogboy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2004, 03:33:47 »
my mane point is that the war even if it is a good thing (hey freedom is good )
why do we not do it for every murderous despot ?
and and if the war was wrong who's going to do anything about it ?

were damed if we do damed if we don't
Iv got a learning disability. Iv had to deal with it for years you can deal with it for a min.

Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2004, 04:25:27 »
Infanteer,

I'm trying to handle him in a couple of other threads. I'll let you deal with him here. Have fun. ::)
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2004, 06:26:24 »
Steal? A person of gentle breeding NEVER steals!. They may acquire, however.

Before you acquire this quote, may I ask in what context it will be used?

Absolutely. My paper touches on the dismissal of evidence, fact or information that counters the norm by means of personalizing one's stance. I.e., those who oppose White House policies in regards to the war have been often labelled "unpatriotic", "anti-American", and in extreme cases "traitors." The story unfolds both ways...

Your post touches on this aspect, and I would like to use it...

If that is okay with you, of course. Let me know, army boy.

Lindsay

Offline Thucydides

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2004, 11:24:09 »
You may use it, but I will offer a caveat, which I hope you will also include. In an Internet thread, things are condensed a great deal. I take the time to look at lots of evidence, but it takes a ling time to record and digest, and of course replying with the 10 year fiancial reports from Haliburton (for example) is very time consuming and difficult to do with limited bandwidth. This means that you may dismiss my views as being "contrary to the norm", while if peole took the time to do the origional reserch, they might be coming to rather different conclusions then "George Bush is a War Criminal", or "BMD is weaponizing space" to use two rather notorious examples.

Your proposed paper could also include the rather interesting observation about how information can be made to dissapear on the left:  During the 1990's all the world's intelligence agencies were convinced about the reality of the WMD program in Iraq, and past evidence of Iraqi use in the Iran Iraq war, and against Kurdish civillians in Iraq were a good predictor of how Saddam Hussein would behave with new stocks of WMD. IF you peruse the records of the US Senate, you will even see speeches by Senator John Edwards warning of the immanent danger to the United States that Saddam's weapns programs posed. Somehow this has all gone down the memory hole and all we hear now is "George Bush lied".
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Dogboy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2004, 12:07:27 »
well in a sense GW did not lie

Iraqi had WMD years ago heck the west sold them to Iraqi (thats why we know whet they had we have records )

But they had them all dismantled and destroyed and cleared by the UN
OK not all 100% but 98% and the 2% not found where reasonably assumed to be destroyed (couldn't find the cereal numbers but found the scrap)
Iv got a learning disability. Iv had to deal with it for years you can deal with it for a min.

Offline RCA

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2004, 13:33:27 »
All wars will have their protesters. The turn the other cheek crowd. So be it. Calling them "leftists". I don't know. The extreme left ain't exactly peacable. And the Anarchists, well I would think they belong to the extreme right.

Should Saddam been removed unilaterally by the US. His been gone is a good thing, but it has open a can of worms, and started a new US forgien policy doctrine of being pre-emotive in the name of National Security. Good or Bad. Depends on where you sit.

The problem is I do not believe that the US has an exit strategy that will end the killing of both US soldiers and innocent civilians. These "insurgents" are not fighting to return Saddam to power, but oust the "occupiers:. To what end. Take over and to become a radical Muslim state. I don't know if this would be in the US's best interest. The minute the US leaves Iraq, this will happen anyway. So they stay to stabilize the region and causalities rise. Can anyone else see the Catch-22 here.

So a question you have to ask yourselves is. If Saddam hadn't been removed, although the subjugation of Iraqis would have continued, the potential of another Iran wouldn't be there and Al Queda would no stronger or weaker then it is now. As for the argument for WMD, they could have been ferreted out and neutralized before their potential was meet.

The acual war was well planned out, but the end game was not even considered. I think that this is Bush's error. You have to think of the long-term effects before considering any option. The long term effects of the Iraq invasion will affect the world (not just the US) for a decade or more. to come.
Ubique

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2004, 14:46:04 »
You may use it, but I will offer a caveat, which I hope you will also include. In an Internet thread, things are condensed a great deal. I take the time to look at lots of evidence, but it takes a ling time to record and digest, and of course replying with the 10 year fiancial reports from Haliburton (for example) is very time consuming and difficult to do with limited bandwidth. This means that you may dismiss my views as being "contrary to the norm", while if peole took the time to do the origional reserch, they might be coming to rather different conclusions then "George Bush is a War Criminal", or "BMD is weaponizing space" to use two rather notorious examples.

Your proposed paper could also include the rather interesting observation about how information can be made to dissapear on the left:   During the 1990's all the world's intelligence agencies were convinced about the reality of the WMD program in Iraq, and past evidence of Iraqi use in the Iran Iraq war, and against Kurdish civillians in Iraq were a good predictor of how Saddam Hussein would behave with new stocks of WMD. IF you peruse the records of the US Senate, you will even see speeches by Senator John Edwards warning of the immanent danger to the United States that Saddam's weapns programs posed. Somehow this has all gone down the memory hole and all we hear now is "George Bush lied".

So far, I haven't exlcuded any of what you have just finished mentioning. My intentions are not to cut and paste your words to create a strongpoint in my paper, instead they are to present your words as they were expressed, and work them into an already developed argument. Do we still have a deal Mr. Majoor? Feel free to add anything more.

Lindsay

Offline Thucydides

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2004, 16:18:59 »
Words as a strong point? The pen really is mightier than the sword! Deal
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline MissMolsonIndy

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2004, 16:22:12 »
Words as a strong point? The pen really is mightier than the sword! Deal

What I meant was...your words aren't creating a point, they are reinforcing one.

Thanks. Your helpful nature won't go overlooked.

Pugnacious

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Re: War Criminal Demonstration
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2004, 20:46:40 »
Here is my take on it...oh I'm sure you are all waiting for this.

Something to consider...The bus loads of people that shipped themselves over to act as human shields soon found themselves transported by Saddams millitary away from the Hospitals, and schools to military targets, like Sam sites, and millitary control centers..when they protested this "shuffle" they were told while facing a bearrel of an AK that they should then leave.

Safe to say that nobody in Iraq is going to miss this wingnut.dictator and the only people that will miss Mr.Saddam are those that benifited by his "administration", at the cost of MUCH pain and suffering of the rest of the people in the country.

But this illegal war was not about about humanitarian reasons as there are much larger hotspots in this world for human rights issues. Nor was it about terrorism, potential or otherwise.  Only Bu$h and his buddies really know what the deal is.  Maybe in 20 - 30 years we will get the full picture...maybe.

Protest away it will do no good anyway, esp' if one has no idea what the situation really is.

Cheers!
P.